Hi I have a question regarding DK threat generation, I'm a warrior tank and my fellow tank in 10man and my reserve tank are both DK's. The issue I have on tank taunt fights, is I find I actually have to stop hitting the boss/target in order not to pull threat away from both DK's, and I mean if i don't stand 10 yards away and whistle then I pull threat back. Now they both tell my they are in mastery spec, so no where near hit/exp cap. I have got one of them to reforge hit/exp to see what that is like, but I guess the question I am asking should they be relying on hit/exp to generate threat or does it sound very much a rotation issue? Should I just have to stand back and wait for my turn to re-taunt?
Keep in mind that you have the vengeance and they probably don't. So as well as a good chance that they'll miss a few attacks, there is a fair chance that your attacks are causing non-trivial threat. Simple solution would be for you to pop into battle stance after the switch, allowing you to do a bit of dps without worrying about the threat.
Can't tell if it's a rotation issue from what you've told us, but you could discuss what abilities they are using after the switch. One thing that can catch you out is that death strike consumes runes even when it misses (hence why DKs often run sub-cap), so if they are taunting and then mashing a couple of death strikes then that could result in very little threat generated. Instead, you'd want them to be having a decent amount of runic power when they taunt and to be mixing in a few good rune strikes early on.
As swelt said it's probably just a vengeance issue, but that should only be an issue for a few seconds though. If you are pulling threat after a solid 10 seconds of backing off then perhaps he is letting his diseases drop and getting unlucky with misses/parries?
Put the first 4 bosses on normal/heroic into the encounter specific guide. I'll finish the rest tomorrow, and then format it so it doesn't look so bland. I've not been very active here lately, but i'm still around
Good idea - here's a couple of other things I've noticed:
- You can spec desecrated ground to break the stun after being thrown on Jin-rokh
- Gorefiends grasp or Remorseless Winter can be very useful during the sandstorm at the council
- Desecrated ground can avoid the stun from stomp at Tortos.
- If you do tank bats at Tortos, spec DG, glyph IBF and use those to immune the stun - this will counter one of the main risks. The other risk is when you are picking up a fresh set of bats - try to have a blood shield and/or a minor CD up. You might consider using glyph of outbreak, having a /target Vampiric Cave Bat macro, putting diseases on the a bat before they land so that you can pick them up more reliably with a blood boil. DKs are not optimal from a survival point of view, but you'll do some crazy damage thanks to the vengeance + dots on everything.
I should finish the encounter guide sometime today. School hit me hard, so I apologize for how long it's taking me to get it done. I appreciate the feedback swelt and ill edit the stuff I already have to include it when i finish the guide as well.
Great info. Question for the DK ppl, Buffed I have 732k hp, 187% mastery, 27% parry, and 9% dodge with a proc chance of 13%. My goal is 200% mastery. But at what point will dodge/parry stop being effective. On fights like Jin'Rokh I can avoid 40% of his melee swings without doing anything. I ask because half may gear is 522+ and when I upgrade the rest I ll need to know where to place the extra stats.
Well the position of dodge/parry really don't change much relative to the other stats. People tend to exaggerate the affects of diminishing returns, and even in final tiers of expansions the actual avoidance % you lose is minimal.
for all levels of gear dodge/parry do less for survival than mastery, slightly more for survival than haste, and are obviously worth a big ol' 0 for dmg.
The point at which dodge/parry become less valuable has more to do with your extrinsic weighting of survival versus dmg than how the stats relate to each other. If you are doing fine on the survival front and are very comfortable with your dmg intake (and more importantly, your healers are comfortable as well) you can start to make small steps towards dps choices. For example, if you are find on survivability you can do mastery>accuracy (to 7.5%)>haste as opposed to mastery>accuracy (to 7.5%)>avoidance, which is still one step from mastery>avoidance>accuracy (to 7.5%).
You can continue this pattern until you reach the extreme of accuracy (to 7.5%)>crit>haste, with crit being valued more than haste simply due to being GCD locked (having to use 2xD runes on a death strike as opposed to 2x necrotic strikes or death siphons because you don't have 2 GCDs to spare is a dmg loss).
Now obviously that is the extreme, and that comes with a SIGNIFICANT survivability loss by itself, not to mention the playstyle changes you would make for dps that hurt survivability .this is the kind of stuff you would do for ranking, not progression tanking, however small swings towards dps can be very beneficial to the raid while tank dps is this high relative to the raid's total output. Especially in 10m. It is often worth it to at least get accuracy stats to 7.5% each, if not going a bit inot haste, but ONLY if you and your healers are comfortable first. Your dmg output is not not a good excuse if you're dying.
avoidance doesn't get worse, but you will find that as your survival gets more solid you might want to boost your dmg output a bit.
I REALLY REALLY do intend to finish the encounter guide. Things have gotten very busy for me, but I DO DO DO intend to finish typing it up and posting it.
Thanks for the advice now let me amend it...Hit/Exp (7.5%) is ALWAY stat #1 to me for all my tank class so yea I hit/exp cap, 730k hp 187% mastery, 27% parry and 9% dodge with a full proc of 16% dodge. It feels like my survivability is good HOWEVER my group is only at council atm we almost had them weds, had priest at 3% and kara at 7% before it all went to hell. But don't u need made amounts of haste to get a few sec off Rune CD? Should I go for 15% exp over crit if I get my avoid to a nice 30/13 ratio on parry/dodge? Either way thanks for the input ill take it under advisement
Just because hit/exp are #1 for every other tank class doesn't necessarily mean it's #1 for us. In terms of raw survival, you should never sacrifice mastery for accuracy even if you are below 7.5% for each, though if you are focused on DPS then that would be ok. Going for haste isn't a big survival increase. DS/min is not as good as it is made out to be, and when you place DS matters a lot more than how often. The reason you would go for haste is the DPS it does. So yes, it does require a lot of haste to get a significant rune regen increase and in terms of survival you won't see a huge amount of benefit, but you will still get a decent DPS gain.
Don't go for 15% exp. Not enough of our abilities can be parried to warrant the extra 2550 expertise.
I kinda have to go with a little bit of a dps build. I tried the below 7.5% approach but when raiding with a Haste Build Pally the only thing that really lets me keep agro more easily was to go to 7.5%. Mastery is the one ability I never reforge out of. its generally the hit/exp I fillflop on gear. If its got exp I may reforge to hit if I need it.
For those wondering how the t16 4pc will work, we will be using the D runes given by the 4pc on Death Siphon (or necrotic strike if Death Pact is taken) to take advantage of them and keep rune throughput going while we use up the 4 free Death Strikes. The 4 free ones could last quite a while if you don't adjust your DS usage (anywhere from like 15 to 25 seconds) so were going to want to at least try to keep the rune cycle going, and death siphon will be a solid alternate rune use in both damage and survival.
Ideally this is how it will probably work out:
You use DRW and get the 4 D runes and the 4 free death strikes.
You death strike as normal and use Death Siphon 4 times as you can spare the GCDs
You keep using Heart Strike/Soul Reaper as normal to keep blood runes recharging.
8 seconds after the last Death Siphon you would have 2 non-D rune FU pairs, which you will sit on until the 4 death strikes are used up
You finish your freebies and use one of the sitting FU pairs, and continue your playstyle as normal.
Depending on how the timing works out, you will still probably sit on the 2 FU pairs for a good 5-6 seconds before you can use them, and if you want to trade free survival for some extra dps you can just spam the freebies away to minimize the lost FU throughput, but it's a minor dps gain (a couple DS every 1.5 minutes at best) and throwing away free death strikes isn't ideal for survival.
Again, this is all assuming nothing changes before 5.4, which is a BIG BIG assumption.
Could we not also use the DRW time and death runes for more heart strikes, to gain more benefit from the 2pc? e.g. DRW, spam many HS + RS (while continuing to DS for defensive needs), pop a jolly big boneshield.
(Both set bonuses look potentially OP, expecting a nerf)
As far the OP thing goes, these are actually tame compared to some of the other tank sets, so if they nerf us it will be among a lot of other tank set bonus nerfs. In fact I pretty much expect nerfs like that. Especially this early, it's a safe bet that there will be quite a bit of tweaking and i expect the tweaking to be in a downward direction for many tank bonuses.
By using all 4 death runes on Heart Strike you would only gain 1 stack, and Death Siphon's healing (if you can time it somewhat) will outweigh that plus it will do more damage than heart strike, and using DSi instead of HS will result in no change in Rune Strikes, so you'll still get the benefit of the extra RP towards RS and the resulting Bone Shield stacks.
I was actually intending to remove them. Parryhaste makes balancing for DR kind moot, and forgot to remove them on this version of the guide. How do you figure they're off, anyway? They are a direct translation from theck's avoidance work with DK d/p caps instead of paladin ones.
EDIT: oh wow this still had the dodge caps set to ~65 as opposed to 90. That's REALLY outdated. That's my bad for neglecting to update this as I make changes to the others.