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Thread: Mograine's Notebook - DK Tanking Guide

  1. #41
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    I've mainly not really logged in since I changed my reforges abit, haven't tested shit yet(should be testing it tonight on Sha), changing my gems as I'm writing this.

    What is your opinion on the 4P anyway?

    PS: you don't tank in a top 100 guild at all. Top 100 25 perhaps, but you don't exactly have experience with real high end tanking, by the looks of it.
    Last edited by lennygel666; 12-30-2012 at 06:03 AM.

  2. #42
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    1) I meant 25m. In my opinion 10m and 25m are different enough that you can't just lump them together. Method is considered "world first" even though paragon technically did it first simply because the race is about 25m content, no?

    2) the 4pc is good. It's been hotfixed to affect our shield, which makes it completely worth it despite the slight mastery loss compared to non-tier pieces.

    Your guild is definitely more progressed than mine is, but if im not mistaken it also raids 25 hours a week (im sure less now that the tier is over) compared to my guild which raids 16. those 9 hours/week make a difference. Regardless of our guilds ranks however, theorycrafting doesnt care how good your progression is. Back up your attacks on me with theorycrafting, not "my guilds killed 3 more bosses than your guild so i'm right". You still haven't defended your claim that "hit cap is mandatory".
    Last edited by Reniat; 12-30-2012 at 07:38 AM.

  3. #43
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    Hitcap isn't really mandatory, but it's something everyone should work towards. Once I get more hitpieces(on which I used to pass) I should be able to cap(or at least be very close to) both exp and hit without losing any mastery.

    Besides, I am not a theorycrafter. Theorycrafting =/= personal experience. I'm talking from what I've personally noticed, not from sims etc.

    I tested this style out tonight and tbh, it worked rather well, ESPECIALLY on sha(which is the only fight where you're at risk of dying pretty much all the damn time), on a lot of fights I really felt like I couldn't 'time' or spread out my DS that much though due to the random nature or consitency of burst damage on those fights(think Vizier, Wind lord add tanking etc.) and in general I just ended up spamming DS. But, the higher hit/exp did make my flow of RP seem a lot better, runic corruption being more reliable etc, which I really enjoy. Did not have a lot of succes with this way of tanking on Empress though due the IMMENSE damage going out there sometimes.

    Did work well on Blade Lord though, but tbh I won't really find out what I think is better until the next tier since I(obviously) already outgear the current content making it a complete joke(with the exception of maybe Wind Lord, Empress and Sha).

    Another thing I think you should put in your guide is the usefulness of Desecrated ground. I find myself using it on two occasions: Vizier(let's face it, even in 'top' guilds people cba to blow their fucking CC before MC happens) and Sha(fear on the platforms, you cannot avoid it completely if you're picking up orbs, even with AMS). Lichborne may also be useful on Sha but really, purgatory would be much safer. On Tsulong it COULD be useful I guess, if you have to counter fright for some reason and don't need the grip/stun

    Would be cool if I could help you with a possible 5.1/5.2 guide, could provide some of my personal experience as feedback on your thoughts, could try my hand at theorycrafting(generally been to lazy to do this myself, just stuck to simming and reading guides while I was DPSing).

    Cheers,

    Amon.

    PS: sorry for coming off like a dick but I generally don't think much of theorycrafters since they tend to be 'lower end' players who do nothing but theorycraft, claiming that stuff works without actually testing it on a high level themselves.

  4. #44
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    It's fine for people to need to discuss some things that they don't agree with when a person starts a guide. What I don't want to see is people attacking a person because they may not have 'credentials'.

    Discuss, don't attack. This is a community, not a judgment.

    Carry on, but tone down some of the wording.

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  5. #45
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    I respect your opinion that most theorycrafters only look at numbers, but take a bit of offense that you assume that all theorycrafters are that way. Especially when it comes down to tank theorycrafting, a large portion of the theory comes from experience and intuition. That said, the numbers don't lie. A construction worker can't tell the engineer "well in my personal experience we need more reinforcement on the structure here" and expect the engineer to completely adjust his blueprints to accomodate for said recommendation. I really do respect and appreciate your info since you come from a level of raiding I would like to be doing at some point (once my schedule allows), however saying something like "everyone should be trying to hit cap" can't just be backed up with "i tried it out tonight on bosses x y and z and it worked well". There needs to be more theorycrafting behind it if you truly want to claim that trying to achiev hit cap is something everyone needs to do to be optimal.

    As far as desecration goes, i'm currently working on a boss guide section that will include all the DK specific things that you would like mentioned. I've already got the MSV version up on the wow forums version, I just need to copy it over here (been busy with the holidays, and mass editing on an iPhone isn't exactly ideal) To me abilities like desecration (beyond what I mention in the talents section) feel that they belong in a fight specific section as opposed to cluttering up the already pretty cluttery main bulk of the guide.


    I really do value any and all input, and if i come across as dismissive that's my fault. however when you come forward with "this guide is worthless." don't be surprised if I don't exactly leap with gratitude. Take the gentlemen arguing haste on the last page for example. They disagreed with my assesment of haste for blood dk. They didn't attack me first though, they instead brought clearly organized and well thought out arguments for haste. At the end of the day i still disagreed with them, but the ideas they gave might help the community out later if they ever adjust hastes stat/second gain and make it actually viable enough to where we consider it for end game tanking.
    Last edited by Reniat; 12-30-2012 at 10:38 PM.

  6. #46
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    Also, just putting this out there... but just because you did it and it worked doesn't mean it's the most optimal way to go about things. Conversely you're right, especially with tanking, that numbers don't mean everything. Hell... by the raw numbers TDR would be a great stat and everyone should be gemming dodge right? WRONG. But just because someone managed to tank something in dodge gear doesn't mean it's right either. Pure anecdotal evidence is just as bad as pure math.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Also, just putting this out there... but just because you did it and it worked doesn't mean it's the most optimal way to go about things. Conversely you're right, especially with tanking, that numbers don't mean everything. Hell... by the raw numbers TDR would be a great stat and everyone should be gemming dodge right? WRONG. But just because someone managed to tank something in dodge gear doesn't mean it's right either. Pure anecdotal evidence is just as bad as pure math.
    Imo there is no 'right' way to tank(at least not for DKs). You can make most styles work, just gotta figure out what works best for you and your raid. This is also why I generally don't like theorycrafting, it tends to put things a bit too 'black and white'

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennygel666 View Post
    Imo there is no 'right' way to tank(at least not for DKs). You can make most styles work, just gotta figure out what works best for you and your raid. This is also why I generally don't like theorycrafting, it tends to put things a bit too 'black and white'
    I think the purpose of theorycrafting is a bit less than black and white.

    A lot of people think its black and white, however, I prefer to think theorycrafting is better to be known as a medium where players of all caliber can come and discuss things rationally and decide which strategies or statistics are optimal, depending on the situation. This allows the community to work together and figure out the best tips and tricks when it comes to this and with a wide input, makes a guide even better. Theorycrafting and guides are two different things here and maybe this is probably the confusion here.

    Theorycrafters don't normally write guides but write down ideas and evaluations they have seen themselves. Guides tend to be more specific in the manner in which you describe. Not all theorycraftes are as bad as you seem to think. Some are genuinely trying to help and advance themselves and the community in the knowledge.

    Just food for thought. =)
    Last edited by Krenian; 12-31-2012 at 08:15 AM. Reason: Stupid iPad

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennygel666 View Post
    Imo there is no 'right' way to tank(at least not for DKs). You can make most styles work, just gotta figure out what works best for you and your raid. This is also why I generally don't like theorycrafting, it tends to put things a bit too 'black and white'
    Actually my problem with guides (back when I actually seriously played) was that what works in general, or even what maths out to be best in general, doesn't necessarily work in your specific circumstances. Especially on early progression kills where you're generally very undergeared for the content. You WILL do things that are pretty fucking weird in those circumstances because you have to make up for that lack somehow.

    BUT, consider that most people (MOST people...the VAST majority of people) won't EVER even know about that weird dance of shit you have to do to make your strategy work against a boss you vastly undergear. Most people will spend a lot of time farming up gear and take weeks and weeks of extra time and gear to get where you got.

    The guides aren't aimed at serious progression raiders...they can't be. As you said yourself, you're trying to make things work in a very specific context of gear, raid comp and boss mechanics. Guides are set up to be a more general introduction to how to play the class and spec. You can give people good mathematical understandings of how things work, a solid explanation of how all the abilities work and interact, and what things that the spec and class bring that are unique. Most people who are coming to look for a guide are going to need that solid foundation of general information just to get going. People who are doing serious high-level progression raiding should already have a much deeper understanding of their class (and spec) than that.

    So in that sense you're right...a guide is probably going to be of little value to YOU, but that doesn't mean that it's of little value in general. People have to start somewhere...and having a good base of knowledge out there ready for them is pretty valuable.
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  10. #50
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    And that is why i try tried to avoid math in my guide. People who need a guide, won't understand the maths and those who understand the maths don't need a guide. Though their are some pretty terrible guides out there.
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  11. #51
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    This is in regards to hit/exp capping

    What about threat and control. My 10man raids DPS is so high, that if I did not land every single melee/ability/attack, then the result generally is a dps getting one shotted, resulting is a premature use of a Brez which should always be saved for a tank/healer. Additionally, it does increase my dps significantly, and also gives more control in normal situations, as well as fluke situations, due to nothing misses. neither melee, nor spell. Faster stacks of S.o.B is a plus. down side... I do have to give up some parry/dodge. I use SS runeforge, and stack mastery. I follow mrrobots hit/exp cap build to the "T", and for my relatively low, at this stage of the game, Ilvl(482) currently, I still have less issues with dmg intake, then other tank classes with better gear, and require significantly less heals. while generally beating the lowest healer in over all heals (all self heals) I have ran with around 2.5% hit and exp before... Recount showed misses of deathstrike, and the healing portion of it as well. It cant be dodged or parried. but the heal can straight miss. making hit more valuable then exp. also a large amount of spell misses, like blood plague/frost fever ticks. Now, my dps was 10k lower like that, I didnt lose threat often admittedly, but when you do, its just embarrassing & potentially wipe causing, but my survivability was very slightly higher... IMO no missed hits and minimum parried/dodged hits has been the way to go. I just wanted to throw out my 2 cents, and get some feedback on it. Thank you for your time, and I have really appreciated this guide.
    Last edited by Juggernautyo; 01-22-2013 at 08:01 AM.

  12. #52
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    Threat:
    Are you being MD'ed? Vengeance is low enough in 10m that you will need a consistent misdirect on pulls to be safe. If that doesn't work, glyphing Dancing Rune Weapon is dps loss but worth the saved Brez. I'm not saying not to go for hit/exp, I'm just giving you some other options.

    Faster SoB procs:
    You only get more procs if you gain a stack that you otherwise would have missed, and with only a 15% chance to miss with absolutely 0 accuracy more often than not you won't "gain" many stacks if any. Now, you will "gain" stacks fairly often, but it's not like without hit/exp you are completely without consistent RP gen. For survivabiltiy purposes avoidance will nearly always (certain fights aside) come out on top of hit/exp.

    Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't go for hit/exp. You are having problems with threat and it sounds like you are fine on survivabilty, so it makes 100% sense to go for hit/exp. 10m tanks in general have a bigger responsibility for their dmg output than 25m tank both because they do a larger % of the total dps as well as the dmg intake is much less. As long as you don't need the avoidance to survive hit/exp capping is 100% viable, especially in 10m tanking simply for the dps gains (which are about 10% btw)

    Death Strike:
    I'd have to take a look at the recount data you were seeing, because currently death strike will ALWAYS heal. Perhaps you were seeing the "miss" from the damage? In the combat log it will show up as:
    Death strike misses (because it did)
    Death Strike heals <you> for x (because it heals anyway).

    Regardless, you always get the heal/shield from death strike. This is why hit/exp aren't mandatory, as SoB isn't enough by itself to justify the avoidance loss from a strict survivability point of view. If they made death strike's heal miss-able then hit to 7.5% would be a much higher priority than it is now.

  13. #53
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    You must be doing something seriously wrong if you can't hold threat on your own in 10 mans.
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  14. #54
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    You did not mention strength. Does strength give parry? If so, wouldnt a strength enchant on rings be better than a stamina enchant if you were looking for both threat and damge reduction?

  15. #55
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    I noticed I did 52K DPS and all of it was with the three dots of blood boil, frost fever and the other that alludes me at the moment. But none of them were blocked , parried, dodged or missed. They all had hit or crit making the need for hit and expertise of no use. If my job is to tank the boss I have many tools to taunt and increase my aggro and rune strike will never be blocked parried or miss. So, I was wondering why hit and expertise is necessary for me as a DK tank. I havent tried going without it but a discussion of this topic would be nice.

  16. #56
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    Dot ticks cannot be missed, parried or dodged, the attacks and spells that apply them can. If you can get a dot up you get all the ticks, however getting them up does require your attacks to connect. Plague strike Requires 7.5% hit and 15% expertise to never fail to connect, Icy Touch and Outbreak require 15% spell hit to never fail.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #57
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    Hit/exp aren't necessary. As Tengenstein pointed out, your diseases can miss on the application, but if you are using Unholy Blight as your first talent choice then that really isn't an issue.

    Here's the 3 basic reasons hit/exp aren't mandatory:
    you only lose 6 RP on missed rune strikes, so missing isn't a major deficit to resources.
    with the 1s GCD we got in MoP missing isn't going to delay t75 procs to the point where you will be rune starved due to misses
    Death Strike will ALWAYS heal/shield even on misses.

    here's the benefit to hit/exp cap
    more dps. It's a minor survivability loss to hit/exp cap, but hit/exp capping is a ~10% dps increase, which isn't nothing. especially if your raid's dps is low.

    In other words, you can hit/exp cap or not. It's up to you and your raid. As long as you don't sacrifice mastery for it. There are survivability benefits as well, so even though it's a net loss after factoring in the avoidance you lose it's not extremely detrimental.

  18. #58
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    Anyone else started looking at what to expect in 5.2 for Blood DKs?

    Gear wise, I was looking at mastery plate (normal mode), and blood dk gear in general (although the filter isn't ideal) and observed the following:

    - I do not care for the DK 4 piece set bonus. Math-wise it doesn't equate to much in terms of survival and practically speaking 'getting little drips of extra runic power when a bone shield stack drops' is not very predictable or useful, in my opinion. I'll probably be passing most tier pieces to classes that get better benefits.
    - Only 2 pieces of the set have mastery (helm, shoulders) so those will be my priority. Also the shoulders almost say 'om nom nom' which is cool
    - Don't know yet what the best looking belt/boots drop from (Abandoned Zandalari Bucklebreaker/Columnbreaker Stompers) - suggestion they might be trash drops. That'd be annoying, as then there won't be heroic equivalents.
    - For non-set chests, the Rot-Proof Greatplate is probably best but the Chestplate of Violent Detonation 'dps' chest from the first boss isn't much worse and probably quite accessible
    - There are a couple of interesting haste+mastery items that could be worth looking at (legs: Bloodlord's Bloodsoaked Legplates, belt: Cloudbreaker Greatbelt) but there are other 'tank' offset pieces with mastery in those slots too.
    - Of the Shado-pan Assault gear, the ring and trinket stand out as instant purchases, the rest probably only worth picking up if the loot gods are unkind (or for pure avoidance sets if you are into that sort of thing). Fortunately, both those items only require Friendly rep which shouldn't take too long.
    - There are some interesting trinket choices: passive expertise + sub-35% auto-heal, Passive stam + absorb on use, Passive mastery + dodge on use - all look like they could be useful (and having options for trinkets to suit encounters is a good thing). So plenty of choices, but only 1 stamina trinket... so probably best not to vendor the T14 stamina options just in case.
    - Wrists are an odd slot this tier. There's no specific bracer with mastery, but there is a 'bracer of the random stat'. So I guess it's going to be a case of hoping for something great to drop, and otherwise going with the Shado-pan or very similar boss parry/dodge bracer.

    TLDR version - I'm getting Valor(rep) ring/trinket asap, while crossing my fingers for offset mastery pieces and only looking at tier helm/shoulders. What about you?

  19. #59
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    This won't be the first time that we've only gotten mastery on two pieces of tier. In fact the last time that happened was right now, t14 with only the legs and shoulders having mastery. Just like normal we'll have the option to go for 4pc or use better itemized non-tier pieces. As far as specific loot goes I haven't really looked at all the pieces outside of trinkets, and while the +exp proc heal looks ok on paper, the healing just isn't enough to justify that much lost mastery. More than likely we will be primarily be using the +mastery on use health (even the the on use is pretty weak) and the +stamina on use absorb.

  20. #60
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    midterms midterms midterms...


    I may be on the verge of psyche collapse due to school stress, but the guide has been updated for 5.2. nothing of consequence changed, which makes it easy for me XD


    Some things that did get changed were blood disease damage (awesome) and a blood worm buff (not really awesome but still a positive change nonetheless).


    What we still REALLY need is raid utility, and we got none of that. You could argue that blood worms are raid utility in the form of aoe heals, but the inconsistent nature of their bursts as well as the fact that the mechanics behind their burst are not designed for raid healing makes blood worms pretty useless as a viable raid utility argument.



    our t15 4pc is not bad, but it's definitely not good either. for the sake of your teams progression I recommend you wait on your 4pc until all the rest of the raid has their vanq tokens. The 2pc is also not bad, and 2 of our tier pieces have a decent size of mastery, meaning you should still get your 2pc with head and shoulders ASAP while passing on the vanq legs/chest/hands to members in your raid who would better benefit from their tier bonus.

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