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Thread: I love active mitigation tanking...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    GO look up GLyph of shield slam. Prot warriors did active mitigation before Blood shield even existed.
    Go look up Wrath of the Lich King.
    DK's were doing "active mitigation" through the use of death strike well before glyphs were even introduced.

    We can argue this all day Teng.
    My main point is DK's aren't an all-in-one active mitigation. Blood shield works to reduce incoming physical damage only.
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  2. #22
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    um, when do you think glyphs were introduced?

    Other than desth strike do you have another short term resource dump like deathstrike that you could be using to keep yourself alive, which isn't a CD? a WoG/Sbar/FR/Chi Burst equivalent?
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    um, when do you think glyphs were introduced?

    Other than desth strike do you have another short term resource dump like deathstrike that you could be using to keep yourself alive, which isn't a CD? a WoG/Sbar/FR/Chi Burst equivalent?
    So they're tied. At best. But really, DK's have been doing it as part of their basic function from "go", where warrior needed a glyph.
    DK's really had not choice BUT to actively mitigate (at least in blood spec).

    One of the talents (I don't recall the exact name) acts very similarly to enraged regen, but that choice comes at the expense of a stronger talent. Consumes runic power over a period of time.

    Again.... I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you Teng. I'm pointing out that your statement is not entirely true.
    All 4 classes have MUCH more in common now than they ever had in the past. The differences keep becoming smaller as time has gone on.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  4. #24
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    A.M. is why I have loved my dk all through cats, even when we were weak in t11. Yet it still doesn't feel like a choice between more dmg or mitigation since our blood shield stacks and it's really nice to be able to have it stacked for when you taunt the boss back. Though I do fear that with the complication of stats with active mitigation if blizz will feel that they need to dumb things down and make stat priorities less confusing.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    Can I ask what you mean by that?

    If you're talking about e.g. the choice between Shield Block and Shield Barrier, there is as much choice there as between Savage Defense and Enraged Regeneration.

    Shield Block or SD is used to counter melee swings, the other one for all the rest.
    It's pretty similar with the other classes, maybe the exception being DKs who got it all in one.[/COLOR]
    Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Each tanking class that I'm at least passingly familiar with now have 'active mitigation' in the form of 'build up a resource (whether it's Rage or Holy Power) and then use it up on A OR B, but not both because it uses up over half your built up resource. While you can use one of the two with less of a resource, it's at a weaker effect. Hence my use of the phrase 'binary choice'

    Just so I'm not being ambiguous:
    Druids: Savage Defense (60 Rage to use) and Frenzied Regen (can be used with less than 60 Rage unless glyphed)
    Paladins: Shield of the Righteous (3 out of 5 HP to use) or Word of Glory (weaker effect with less than 3 HP)
    Warriors: Shield Block (60 Rage to use) and Shield Barrier (can be used with less than 60 Rage)

    Active Mitigation is the art of building up enough resource to use the hard cost one, or saving your tail by using the soft cost one and usually setting yourself back to 0 resource when you do.

    Pre-MoP, druids didn't have to manage either of those things (you just got your dodge up above whatever the flavor of the patch was and called it enough). Your main goal as a bear tank was to generate enough Rage to keep threat on stuff in order to keep it hitting you for more Rage, and the only thing you needed to do was gear/spec for some level of survivability from the passives (Dodge mainly) because once you got and kept the thing's attention, it pretty much kept your rage bar full. You could button mash and keep threat once they beefed up the threat scaling to 500%, too.

    Post-MoP drop, I'm watching the polarization (see what I did there) between the Dodge/Mastery heavy folks and the Hit/Exp/Crit folks happening, and it largely depends on your play style which one works better for you.

    -Tielyn

  6. #26
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    I don't ..... wait. Before I even say it. Blizzard COULD dumb it down, but they've already introduced a LOT of homogenization across the tanking classes. Really, all of them are apples v. oranges compared to Cata.... and apples v. pumpkins compared to Wrath.

    I like that they've tried to ensure that no tank class is left out in the cold, as some were in Wrath (or anything preceeding). There were some fights that were just nasty if you weren't playing a certain class.

    Active mitigation is a nice step in trying to keep the various tank classes interesting and unique, despite this "generalization" of the classes against each other. They're more like each other in the basic mechanics..... but how those play out varies enough to keep things interesting.

    Just my two cents.

    Edit: My post was targeted more towards uglie.

    Tielyn.... you bring up some good points. And yeah, there is another sort of polarization going on..... but that's not new. Cata had its tank "polarization". So did Wrath and TBC. It just changed flavors between each.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  7. #27
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    A lot of the polarization is becuase they have made stats Interesting/boring. YOu could look it at as 90% of secondary stats are good for you so just get lots, so it's quite forgiving for gearing, there's no "oh your not CTC capped? well you can't tank" going on. on the
    other hand you you stats actually are interesting and you can tailor them to the encounter, THere is no 100% right way to gear anymore. if you want to gear optimally for each encounter you can, if you want to follow a general guidline that will work for most things too, anyone saying X is right Y is wrong is missing the point,
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  8. #28
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    The thing is Total damage reduction is not a good metric for tank survivability, it wasn't in wrath, and it wasn't in cata, and it still isn't in MoP.the Bleed may be the main source of damage in that fight, but it in and of itself is not going to kill; its what 30k DPS? at least 10 seconds of no healing before it kills you. Each dog hits as hard as morchok HC did. It's not a tank survivability fight. even without active defenses we're looking at a good 5-6 seconds of taking it to the face before we keel over. Its a don't stand in stuff whilst the the tanks juggle mobs fight. Its a boring fight once you learn the mechanics.
    I realize this maybe an RNG thing, but in the fights where I favored SD, Healers spend a lot of time on me, which they didn't when I used FR. This time was then spend healing the raid. I agree on the boring fight part. (Though, seeing as we are a pretty casual raid, people do make it interesting by not avoiding stuff.)

    You only need to dodge two in a row for the bleeds to come off, and then every dodge after that keeps it off. Managed to dodge a few times in a row after having it fall off and spent 37 seconds bleed free, which isn't a 'lot' for a 7+ minute fight, but I'll take saving my healers 1.4 million in damage to heal any day.
    I don't quite understand the data you seem to be working off of. It's possible my understanding is flawed. In one of our kills, I used FR exclusively since it made our healer's life easier. In that fight, Rend Flesh gets refreshed every six seconds, with the occasional skip to 12 seconds (meaning I dodged the meele attack). With a 15 second duration, that means I either need to dodge the initial attack and every further attack six seconds later to avoid the application completely, OR dodge between two and three times on demand to allow the bleed to fall off and then again every six seconds. Granted, I have been stacking mastery and capped hit and expertise (soft) instead of dodge, but that seems a rather risky gamble considering I could spend all that rage on heals to counter the bleed and some meele damage on top of it. (Of which, admitedly, I take more.) The long and the short of it is, that in every attempt we had, whenever I used SD in favor of SR, our healers had more trouble keeping me up and more importantly, spend time healing me rather than healing the raid. (We did have some bad luck with our combos though.) Now with better gear, maybe I should give SD another try.

    At least three of the tank classes (Warrior, Druid, Paladin) use the binary 'this or that with defensive resource' choice. I can't speak on monks or death knights, but those three got that as their Active Mitigation mechanic. It's less boring than not needing to worry about choices at all, I suppose, and we didn't lose a lot of spells, so may I humbly ask what made bears more interesting to you pre-MoP that you're missing now? Or is it that you see that other tank classes have more buttons/functionality overall?
    I gotta admit, I mostly miss bearcatting, but I fully recognize Blizzards reasons for removing it. I used to enjoy trying to maximise my Threat and DPS while still tanking and managing my defensive cooldowns. A large part of this was Maul, switching to cat for a few bleeds etc. Now that losing your rage hurts so much, I find myself not doing this at all.
    I do have more buttons to push on my other tanking classes, though a large part of this is due to the shapeshift mechanic. As long as we are actively tanking, a lot of our abilities might as well not exist which is not the case for most tanking classes. Case in Point, our raid loses my raid CD (Tranquility) completely in the Stoneguard fight, simply because its unusuable in bear. A DK can still use chains of ice for example, but my roots and cyclone are unusuable. (Asside from NS)

    I do realize this could be a "the grass is greener" thing, which would mean I created my first whine post without wanting to. In which case, I apologize. It's that the "active" tanking feels a lot more passive because I press the same buttons over and over. When I tank on my DK, I find myself trying to judge exactly when to use Deathstrike, when to dump Runic Power etc. Its reactive to the unique conditions of the situation.
    On my Druid, I just press SD whenever I can unless I know a cast or move phase is upcomming or FR when not tanking (or tanking Stoneguards). It feels scripted: "Do x until 60 rage then press SD". I do generate ressources and spend them on FR instead of having passive dodge, but with few exceptions, there is very little reason not to press SD once you have the 60 rage to do so. I find it hard to properly express this, but fishing for SD procs in Cata kind of felt more active than waiting for mangle procs and the 60 rage to press SD. I realize this a feeling and not a hard fact.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    A lot of the polarization is becuase they have made stats Interesting/boring. YOu could look it at as 90% of secondary stats are good for you so just get lots, so it's quite forgiving for gearing, there's no "oh your not CTC capped? well you can't tank" going on. on the
    other hand you you stats actually are interesting and you can tailor them to the encounter, THere is no 100% right way to gear anymore. if you want to gear optimally for each encounter you can, if you want to follow a general guidline that will work for most things too, anyone saying X is right Y is wrong is missing the point,
    From my perspective, considering the changes made to talents/glyphs..... wasn't that kind of the intention? To make it where you could run with a general spec, or, if you really wanted to tweak a toon to a specific encounter, you could also do that? "Could" being the important word, meaning that a lot would be left to interpretation of the individual....... or the guild/group they're with demanding something in particular. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was the impression I got from some of the pre-MoP dev chatter.

    Interesting side note: this is a little bit of a throwback to the days of TBC, where, iirc, it was not uncommon for raid members to fly back to Shattrath to respec completely for a particular fight (or for the whole raid to change composition in order to tailor itself to an encounter). It's a little different, but it reminds me a bit of that.



    No one tanks in a void.........

  10. #30
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    It is interesting that the stat priorities are so close to each other relative to previous expansions and compared to other roles. This allows more of the performance of the tank to be focused on actual rotation/skill rather than researching what stats to focus on. In a way the stat situation helps allow newer tanks to pick up the role but the skill check can give them a rude awakening if they don't know what they are doing.

    Also as far as DK's go, just because blood shield only works on physical damage doesn't change the fact that they only have one button to push. They are the only tank that doesn't have an either/or system for active mitigation... also their active mitigation is an integral part of their dps rotation as well. Where as druids/warriors (not sure on monks and paladins gain damage from theirs as well) have to sacrifice mitigation in order to boost dps. You could say they would not be optimally using death strike if they were focusing on dps, but their is a big difference between not optimal and completely sacrificing mitigation. I gu
    Last edited by Takethecake; 10-24-2012 at 09:10 AM.

  11. #31
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    Lysiander --

    The 'optimum' (IMHO, very, very, IMHO) place you want to be is where you can get into a rhythm of having SD up as much as possible while having FR available if you need it. Data is here: (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...752#post558752)

    If you don't feel like jumping through the link, the gist is:

    In the log that's in that post, I kept my SD uptime at 49%, and my girlfriend kept hers at 34%, and both of us have windows (37 seconds and 14 seconds respectively) of fully dodged Rend Flesh in the same log (which we downed the boss on). We also had enough wiggle room for Frenzied Regen casts in there (26 for me and 14 for her) when the healers were busy, out of range, or OOM, which they were for the last 12% of the fight.

    * If you use FR exclusively, you're going to get hit by every single Rend Flesh and pretty much every melee - with non-raid gear, you can probably get your dodge up to 14 or 15% at best.

    * If you use SD exclusively, when the RNG doesn't favor you, the Rend Flesh will eat your healer mana anyway. There's another log in there where I had a higher SD uptime (51%) and the Rend Flesh only fell off once for all of 6 seconds.

    If you're wondering 'why bother, then?' Because the other thing you're dodging is that melee. It may not seem like it hits for that much, but it adds up -- 114 melee dodges = 2 million damage prevented. And if you manage to slough off Rend Flesh while you're dodging melee, that's a win-win.

    That being said: I've had a lot of practice time on this, so I have my fingers trained around it. I've been over on the beta ever since the final SD/FR switch went live, and hated the near-release versions before they fixed it so you got more rage for white swings. Stacking Mastery only helps versus the melee attacks, not the bleeds; Telamir had 1% more mastery than I do but she's taking the exact same damage (39600 a tick) from bleeds -- but if you're taking less by stacking Mastery, _please_ do correct me, because I'm very wrong then. She got hit by more melee (only 68 dodges) and took more Rend Flesh damage than I do, while having the double dogs less than I did. On the other paw... she'd only been practicing with the new system for about a day and a half. (She's a -very- quick study, and she kicks my tail in Feral Cat, which is her main spec.)

    I'm having the most success with 'wait until SD's buff hits 0 seconds, and by default hit SD to refresh it', but also checking my health at the time and not being afraid to cash out my FR if I need it. I'm saving my cooldowns for the points where I just had to zero out my Rage with an FR, so I'm taking less damage while I'm rebuilding Rage, and in a lot of ways Enrage is now a mini-defensive cooldown(!) instead of the offensive one it used to be -- save it for when you need a lot of Rage -fast- along with Berserk.

    Mostly you have to get the flow down of generating Rage while you're fiddling with other stuff. Having a second brain on the other side of the room that is running the same calculation as you are (which dog gets taunted next) is much easier than having an OT that doesn't know which dog they should have (demonstrated by my horrible 18% SD uptime the first day we were in there).

    Stacking crit with hit/exp makes it a lot easier for me, because I tend to have more Rage at my disposal more often.

    However. I did notice that the new mammoth has a portable reforger -- that might well indicate that there will be fights where I'll want to stack Dodge/Mastery for some reason.... same goes for the ability to redo your talents and glyphs on a per-fight basis. The thing that highlighted this for me was the paladin saying, "Hey, are there any stuns we can do on these? I can respec for Repentance but I don't have it right now."

    -Tielyn

    PS. And yeah. I miss bearcatting too. I miss the utility of being the invisible third tank when our normal DPS-only tanks weren't cutting it, and being able to intervene and control the fight at will on various things or if a tank ate the floor was an awesome stunt. And no, I agree with you, I also did the 'fish for SD procs in Cata' thing, which is why I went crit/haste instead of dodge/mastery in Cata, and that's the other reason my bearcat DPS went through the roof while being less squishy at the same time.

    PPS. Also, I tried playing with Force of Nature. I got three trees that have 41K health apiece, which means they're good for at best two hits, and they taunt off of you, which can have disastrous effects if they turn the boss at the wrong moment. They're a lot like Army of the Dead. Apparently on the beta they used to give a 20% damage absorb to you _and_ the raid for 15 seconds, usable once a minute, and if they had kept that? I would definitely take that since when used concurrently with Barkskin, that would be 25 seconds out of every minute taking 20% less damage. Right now, definitely not worth it.
    Last edited by Tielyn; 10-24-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    It is interesting that the stat priorities are so close to each other relative to previous expansions and compared to other roles. This allows more of the performance of the tank to be focused on actual rotation/skill rather than researching what stats to focus on. In a way the stat situation helps allow newer tanks to pick up the role but the skill check can give them a rude awakening if they don't know what they are doing.

    Also as far as DK's go, just because blood shield only works on physical damage doesn't change the fact that they only have one button to push. They are the only tank that doesn't have an either/or system for active mitigation... also their active mitigation is an integral part of their dps rotation as well. Where as druids/warriors (not sure on monks and paladins gain damage from theirs as well) have to sacrifice mitigation in order to boost dps. You could say they would not be optimally using death strike if they were focusing on dps, but their is a big difference between not optimal and completely sacrificing mitigation. I gu
    So..... what it sounds like is that, everyone is upset because DK's have an advantage at the moment?
    That's really how a lot of this (not just your post, but others) comes across..... except no one is flat-out stating that.

    Please realize, at one time, DK's were WOEFULLY behind the power curve. Actually, for most of their existence, and with the exception of a few fights in which their ability to self-heal as part of a TANKING approach (it's not a dps rotation.... in a dps "rotation", you're not potentially holding back on a single attack SOLELY for the purpose of a heal after receiving damage) really made the class shine, they've had to struggle for the most part.

    So... for once, they might truly be sitting in the primo tank position, instead of playing second fiddle to the paladin, warrior.... or, as it was in some cases, to the druid (who has been traditionally, another wayward class left to suffer in the shadow of paladins and warriors). Get over it. Adapt. Survive.

    I mean, isn't that what was told to the DK community all this time? SITFU?

    Yes, I am being snarky and somewhat sarcastic..... if you couldn't guess. Simple reality is.... shit changes all the time in this game. Some classes will have an advantage over others for a while, and others will lag behind. This is just ONE minor advantage that DK's have currently and is probably only so much of an issue because by and large, the MAJORITY of the tank population IS paladins and warriors, as they WERE arguably the best/easiest tank for 90% of WoW to date, and that large population is now suddenly feeling slighted.

    Try and discuss this stuff objectively please.... and realize that this is the opening stages of an expansion with the new tanking mechanic. It's GOING to change before we're done with MoP, and classes will shuffle positions again, as they always have. HELP your fellow warriors and paladins adapt and thrive. And SEND feedback to the devs on the forums!!!! Heck... you guys might see a heal incorporated into revenge or shield slam in the future in order to further homogenize the classes.

    No one tanks in a void.........

  13. #33
    Quick reminder that threads that devolve into "my class is better/worse than your class" whining get locked. Let's keep the conversation civil and constructive.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    So..... what it sounds like is that, everyone is upset because DK's have an advantage at the moment?
    That's really how a lot of this (not just your post, but others) comes across..... except no one is flat-out stating that.
    To me it just sounds that people are pointing out that DKs do not follow the same active mitigation choice design as other tanks have, because Death Strike is (and has been since WotLK) the all-in-one active mitigation button.

    Please realize, at one time, DK's were WOEFULLY behind the power curve. Actually, for most of their existence, and with the exception of a few fights in which their ability to self-heal as part of a TANKING approach (it's not a dps rotation.... in a dps "rotation", you're not potentially holding back on a single attack SOLELY for the purpose of a heal after receiving damage) really made the class shine, they've had to struggle for the most part.
    I won't touch the WotLK design, because even Blizzard accepts that it was far from ideal (although I do miss Frost DW tanking sometimes), I didn't really see major issues with DK tanks in Cataclysm. Granted, I quit heroic raiding after T11, but if DKs were able to do normal just fine, I don't really see how woefully behind they could be.
    I also want to point out that as long as you're not sitting on runes, you're not losing DPS, you're simply shifting it to a point where the added effect is more useful. The only exchange of survivability vs DPS a DK has is using Death runes on Heart Strike over Death Strike and I don't know if that's even a DPS increase on a single target.

    So... for once, they might truly be sitting in the primo tank position, instead of playing second fiddle to the paladin, warrior.... or, as it was in some cases, to the druid (who has been traditionally, another wayward class left to suffer in the shadow of paladins and warriors). Get over it. Adapt. Survive.

    I mean, isn't that what was told to the DK community all this time? SITFU?
    Not by me and afaik, not by most Tankspot members. In fact, I used to tell "omg I can't tank this because of my class" DKs exactly what you said: "Get over it. Adapt. Survive."

    Yes, I am being snarky and somewhat sarcastic..... if you couldn't guess. Simple reality is.... shit changes all the time in this game. Some classes will have an advantage over others for a while, and others will lag behind. This is just ONE minor advantage that DK's have currently and is probably only so much of an issue because by and large, the MAJORITY of the tank population IS paladins and warriors, as they WERE arguably the best/easiest tank for 90% of WoW to date, and that large population is now suddenly feeling slighted.

    Try and discuss this stuff objectively please.... and realize that this is the opening stages of an expansion with the new tanking mechanic. It's GOING to change before we're done with MoP, and classes will shuffle positions again, as they always have. HELP your fellow warriors and paladins adapt and thrive. And SEND feedback to the devs on the forums!!!! Heck... you guys might see a heal incorporated into revenge or shield slam in the future in order to further homogenize the classes.
    Objectively, I don't think that for players invested into being the best, Death Strike being a double effect button is not an advantage at all. The points in a fight where you want to heal and you want a shield are not always aligned and I believe that Blizzard assumed the heal to be part of the "passive" damage mitigation/mini-heals similar to Paladin Seal of Truth or Druid Leader of the Pack. I would say the biggest advantage DKs have right now is the no-cost Anti-Magic Shell (and the talented Zone) for magic fights.

    I think Death Strike is a tool that works well in all situations, as the heal (and thus the absorb) are based on ALL damage taken. As long as the melee-to-magic ratio isn't so low you shield yourself for more than the melee you take, DS is working at full capacity.
    As a Warrior, you have to chose between a melee-only damage reduction or an absorb all button, but the shield generally absorbs less physical damage than Shield Block could mitigate if most/all damage is melee. I think the major difference between these two models is that Death Knights need to know when to press their button, while other tanks are shifted more towards which button to press.In short: Choice means options, options means choice.
    You coud say: DKs don't have to chose between mitigation buttons.
    But on the other hand: DKs can't chose between mitigation buttons.
    I think this is a trade-off that is there because of how classes were designed earlier and they didn't want to change ALL the buttons, but in the end, does it even matter? Both models revolve around handling resources to prevent or heal up damage. Sure they are different, but as long as the external healing required is similar, who cares?
    In Dutch, we have a word meaning "of equal value/worth", which differs itself from "equal" as not meaning "being the same".
    In that way, I could easily say that all tank classes are "of equal value", but they aren't "equal".
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post


    So... for once, they might truly be sitting in the primo tank position, instead of playing second fiddle to the paladin, warrior.... or, as it was in some cases, to the druid (who has been traditionally, another wayward class left to suffer in the shadow of paladins and warriors). Get over it. Adapt. Survive.
    Being someone who started pally tanking when BC launched, I have to say, back in those days, druids most definitely were not suffering in my shadow. The paladin, with it's mighty spell power weapon (lulz), was the one struggling to prove itself (at least on my server).

    Which really brings me to this point. Every tank class seems to take turns at being "the best." Right now, as it's been said, the separation I feel is no longer significant enough and everyone seems extreamly viable (not sure on monks yet as I haven't run with a monk tank yet). To me, that's exciting.


    While it's been weird getting used to not stacking stam, embracing haste, and not having those 10 seconds of backside clenching panic at the beginning of a hard fight where you're trying to establish solid aggro, overall I think the active mitigation system is fantastic and its one of the things that made me love my paladin again (wasn't a fan of cata).
    Last edited by Valhathos; 10-25-2012 at 05:37 PM.

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    Monks are pretty cool to raid with and as a druid tank you get an extra dodge cd when you put symbiosys on them.

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    This is going to sound like a class whine, but I'll try to keep it balanced... I do need to get it off my chest though.

    I like the concept of active mitigation a lot. I like feeling that my performance, my 'working harder' or 'playing better' keeps me alive where someone else might have died. At least, I like that as a player. As a raid leader, it puts a lot more pressure on me when selecting who is going to tank in progression fights, as I have to worry that much more about who I select... but that's another issue. I got my warrior up to 90, and I did get some sense that active mitigation was working. There were a few hairy pulls or under-geared boss fights where I felt that the way I managed my rage generation and minor cooldowns was a factor in keeping me alive. At the same time though, I just didn't like the *feel* of the new rage system, nor the new shield block/barrier. It feels clunky, it feels as though they broke up the warrior rotation into constituent parts then glued them back together in a different shape. Shield block feels underwhelming, shield barrier just doesn't feel of much at all... you have to be aware of the maths and the probabilities to understand what they are doing for you.

    Then I leveled my DK. It is like night and day. The blood DK design has been iterated on several times, it barely changed with MOP and is now pretty slick. It was pretty slick (bordering OP) towards the end of Cataclysm. The direct feedback on deathstrike (and the skill involved in maxing deathstrike effectiveness), the array of minor cooldowns that can be juggled, the resource system... to me at least, it feels pretty complete. I was left wondering why I would want to play a warrior (broken up, and stuck together in the image of the deathknight) when I could just play the death knight. And so that's what I'm doing.

    I appreciate that this is all terribly subjective. I'm sure there must be plenty of warriors that like the new rage system. To me, it feels like a bad twist on combo points. I think the latest change to Avatar on the PTR adds insult to injury, taking away the rage generation component turns it from a nice example of a flexible cooldown that helps the tank 'actively mitigate a bit harder' (like an overdrive button, and indeed not unlike dancing rune weapon) into a pure dps tool that can probably be ignored. I have no idea how Blizzard would 'fix' the problems that I perceive. I think a lot of it tracks back to the concept of 'blocking damage with shields', which is a core part of the warrior kit, but which I don't think they've ever really found a good way of turning into a gameplay mechanic (despite many different attempts).

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8
    -- Tielyn

    Sorry for not replying earlier. Our last raid got canceled due to the servers being down and I didn't have that much time the past week. We did kill Stone Guards again tonight. First, let me say mastery definately does not affect Rend Flesh, it completely bypasses the armor. My log shows the exact same 39.600 ticks yours does and I assume there is a major difference in gear and mastery between the time you made that log and my current 470ish gear. I got those numbers across multiple logs, all with different mastery values for me, so the only conclusion is that armor doesn't play any role at all.

    I did go for SD on this kill and got it to 56% uptime, which is low but I did have to throw in the occasional FR. Despite trying hard and even kiting some, I only managed to drop the bleed once, but one fight is a small sample size. I can say my HP do feel a lot more spiky when using SD over FR. With small burst FR I retained a relatively stable ~60-80% HP. With SD I spend a lot of time in the 20-40% range. Though, overall, I did take both less damage and less healing and my gear hasn't changed at all I think. The overall dodges, 34 without SD vs 152 with SD are noticable though.

    Im still not entirely convinced that SD works better on that fight, since I generally value stability over the amount of damage I take. My healers didn't feel much of a difference either way and seemed to actually prefer me to do self healing because it leads to less ciritcal moments. However trying to get more data and keeping SD up did kind of force me to play harder, which also buffed my damaged somewhat nicely. Its seems I've been neglecting my thrash bleed (not the weakened blows, only the bleed) before. Damn self build UIs and my negligence to update spellIDs.

    Generating rage hasn't been much of a problem so far, with the exception of big trash packs where I find little time to mangle in the beginning. Once Trash ticked a few times and vengeance kicks in, I have more room for it to actually get some rage, but early on it seems nigh impossible to use mangle without losing a couple of mobs. But then, my DPS is a bit trigger happy sometimes. I gotta say though, the new vengeance mechanic makes AE tanking with multiple tanks a pain. Its basically whoever has the larger initial burst agro that gets the vengeance first, and from there on, its basically impossible to keep up unless you keep taunt on CD. This isn't a druid problem, but a pretty big design flaw IMO.

    I've been playing around with talents a lot, and it's kinda dissapointing that I can't seem to find fights for HotW yet. The long cooldown really is a killer and few fights allow you to leave the other tank on his own for 45 seconds. I do enjoy Incarnation plus Nature's Virgil though. Especially during Feng p2 and p3 its a nice combo to have. I don't get why Incarnation is on the GCD though. I haven't actually dared to try FoN in raids yet, for the same reason you state, they potentially move bosses. So far, every encounter I've seen is position sensitive, so that's a nono. I actually wouldn't mind a set of glyphs that turns them into the other specs versions.

    On the topic of reforging, I have been going for Hit /Exp 7.5% > Mastery > Crit > Haste so far, but I'm beginning to wonder wether I shouldn't just abandon both mastery and dodge in favor of Hit/Exp/Crit. Doing so would lose me about 7.000 armor but net me roughly 10% crit.

    Im kinda beginning to wonder wether I misjudged agility. After the MoP launch, the larger boni from gems seemed to juicy to pass up, so I've been gemming a lot of hit and expertise since those were the stats I needed capped and most of my gear is crit/mastery by now. Is anyone aware of a place were the math on the value of agility has already been done so I don't spend the hours to do it myself? I'd be curious on your gemming/ reforging strategy as well Tielyn.

    -- swelt
    You kinda describe the same I've been trying to say. My DK feels a lot more "smooth" than my bear does. Maybe its the one button rotation, maybe Im playing my bear wrong. Its a subjective thing.

    -- On the topic of tanks in general
    No amount of OPness in the past justifies OPness in the present. MMOs aren't a "you had yours, now I want mine" thing. That being said, these days it feels a lot like Bliz managed their different tanks for different fights goal. I've only seen Monk, DK, Druid and Paladin so far, but tanking seems to be a matter of playstyle mostly. If anything, Monks feel a bit powerful right now, but that was kind of to be expected. My tanking partner Monk did get to play a lot more beta than I did though, so this could be simple practice.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    9
    The only place I have seen that HotW is of any use is at the pull on Gara'jal if your tanking second as the first Banish isnt for 60 secs so you can get the full 45 secs Wrath spamming. As you can swap weapons in combat using a caster staff isn't a problem.

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