Issue (2 Guilds In 1 Guild)

[Appleseed]

We have 2 cores in our guild. Core 1 and Core 2. Core 2 did not raid last weeks due to the raid leader being on vacation. Core 1 needed 1 member to go with them to progress 6/6. A mage from core 2 had already volunteered before we had asked so we took him along. The co raid leader for Core 2 whispered me (the gm) and asked me if it was going to be a regular thing that I took HIS members. That right there set me off but I cooled off and replied with "I am sorry I made the assumption of it being okay with you when the mage volunteered to go with us. Next time i take core 2 members I will ask" He said great thanks.

We end up calling it due to tunnel vision and monk tanking (dont get me started) and so the mage asked me if I needed him the following day. I said we may need him it all depends on how recruitment goes for core 1. He said thats fine to let him know. Well the next day comes and we get ready for raid and we had over recruited 15 players. No core 2 raid leader was on anyways so I said we did not need him. He basically goes off calling core 1 raid leader a liar saying how the core 1 raid leader said that he was going to get to come and how it was bullshit and just kept on. Whispering the core 1 raid leader and just bluntly going off on him. Him and the core 1 raid leader had a few words and then I stepped in and said that I had told him we just didnt have the room and that he was never lied too. The mage told me to drop it that he didnt want to talk about it and said the subject was dropped. I said fine. The next day I come on to more drama him and the raid leader still going at it and then pretty much the mage leaves and basically says fuck this guild I am going to join the top rating guild on this server peace out douches.

Well that was that and I whispered the co raid leader and told them what happened. He laughed and said okay. Tonight comes around the corner and I bring in the co raid leader up to the admin channel and we start out normal conversation with do you need anything for core 2? how is core 2? Core 2 is great I have enough members tonight.

So now its raid time for both cores and I hop in and to my surprise I see the mage that left was in the core 2 channel. WHAT?! I messaged the raid leader and said why is he in there did the co raid leader not tell you what happened? Yeah i heard the story but hes done nothing to core 2. I said when your done with your raid I would like to talk to you. After raid the raid leader comes into the officer channel and was like whats up?

I basically said.. I am disappointed that you did not come to me before inviting him into the group. He bluntly disrespected our guild and the officers and I feel that he should have never been invited and then i calmly explained what happened. Well the raid leader brought in the co raid leader and it went from there. I explained again that I did not want him raiding with them that I felt that the mage should not be rewarded with kills and loot if he disrespected the guild and the officers. The co raid leader responds with "Well hes done nothing to us so we are bringing him." I then reply with "So your going to bring in a player who disrespected your guild after you clearly see I have a problem with it as your gm?" I get a reply back with "No matter how many times you ask the answer is still we are going to bring him" So i reply back with "If your going to bring him into your group thats fine but you wont be in core 2 or in this guild if he comes again." he replied back with "Okay but we're still bringing him"

I am beyond livid and pissed off.. We have expectations and rules for all raid leaders and officers.

Leaving and Rejoining

• While the guild is a relatively relaxed environment and can be forgiving, we are not a revolving door. If you choose to seek greener pastures, find them not so green, and then wish to return, you will only have one second chance granted.
• Please note, upon leaving the guild all DKP, rank, or other loot privileges will be forfeit. When a member leaves and later wishes to return the following will have to have been met:
• Must have been a member in good standing.
• Left responsibly: spoke to the GM or an officer, in advance of departure, preferably in tells or in Ventrilo.
• Must have a good reason for leaving / wishing in return.
• Everyone, regardless of previous rank, within the guild, will submit in application, and if approved to be guilded as an initiate and subject to all initiate rules and requirements.

If you dont adhear to our rules then you will be held accountable. However I do not want to act hastily or make a decision when I am this upset. I feel very disrespected and feel that I have been over throned. What should I do? Am i over reacting or would you feel this way too?

[Darksend]

First of all I find it hard to believe you recruited 15 people over night, I think you mean you had 15 people for 10 raid slots. That said, unless the people you "recruited" were people who were already in the guild just without a spot in either raid group, if any of the dps who were in the raid were not in the guild the day before and this mage was previous to this incedent a member in good standing, you and your raid leader made a mistake from a guild leadership perspective by bringing an app over a member, this has always been a huge red flag with me without very good reason. Now sorry but I do have to ask, was it you specifically that told the mage under what circumstances he would or would not be needed the following night? If not then you have no idea what the mage was told.

THAT IN NO WAY excuses how he reacted. What you Ned to do is kick the mage for good then apologize to the guild for allowing that situation to happen, that should not be in doubt.

Now another question, is it actually 2 guilds that merged, what makes core 1 the more important raid, did you steal all the good players and even the core 1 sitouts are better than the core 2 regulars, is it just grouped by friendship, are there 4-5 core people in each raid then at raid time you take whoever else is on and randomly pit them in a raid based on need, and finally the only way to really solve this is to kick the core 2 leader and or lead that raid yourself, you need to evaluate the answers to my questions to figure out how much of the guild will leave when you do that, because from the soun d of things you yourself essentially made the core 2 leader the gm of all the members of raid 2.

[Theotherone]

In addition to Dark's points, you've put yourself in a pickle. Your authority is in question. First step is ban the mage from vent, second step is probably g-kicking the raid leader from core 2 and anyone loyal to him. If you can reform core 2, do so and put a rl in charge loyal to you.

It does go back to it's just a game, but people take it too seriously, because of that once you get a bad apple in the guild, he'll infect the whole barrel; rid of the guild of him and his friends.

[sifuedition]

Did you ever ask WHY he is insistent on the mage being in that group? There may be deeper issues here. It could be as simple as the Core 2 rl believes some lie the mage told about how this all went down. It could be a challenge of authority that actually has no roots in the mage at all. It could be any number of things.

While I don't necessarily see inconsistencies in what you have said, we are after all, only getting one side of the story. That is just human nature. We can only relate a story (usually) from our own perspective. If you feel there is a chance you have done something wrong, then dig deeper into why they are so adamant on this. I have a feeling that you will uncover some kind of bad feelings that may have nothing to do specifically with the mage.

With the information we have, it sounds like the Core 2 rl has pretty blatantly said he doesn't want to be in the guild. If you think that's the result of a misunderstanding or some kind of fixable issues, then fine. It's time to get to work on that. If not, then there is no point leaving a cancer in any longer than absolutely necessary.

[Appleseed]

Correct I had a 15 man roster meaning I recruited 5 new people on top of the 10m roster that I currently had which was the plan all along.

Let me further explain myself so you can understand the whole concept. I was pretty pissed off when I wrote this so points are missing.

The guild is based on progression. We want to establish ourselves as the number 1 late night guild on our server and soon go after the world title. We have rules and expectations which are clearly stated before anyone joins the guild.

Now, Core 2 was designed to later merge in with Core 1 for a 25m team. We had overly recruited in cata and could not fill all the positions. A good friend of mine stepped up and created a core 2. Core 2 went well for the last few months of cataclsym but due to real issues the core 2 raid leader had to step down and appointed someone to run it. I gave the go ahead and said okay. Core 1 is designed for a 4 night raiding hardcore progression. Core 2 is designed for a semi hardcore progression where they raid 2 nights. This allows us to pull from core 2 as needed later on in the week when core 2 is done.

The mage that joined had only joined the previous week so there was no veteran status and there was no automatic raid spot. He was a trial. I have specific rules that I have posted on the website that state that: Due to recruitment and a full tight roster there maybe times where a trial will sit out. This is in the application form as well which theres a button that says Do you understand and will adhere to the rules.

He came in to fill a raiders spot because we were short. I even told him that the moment he came and he understood. I am always communicative with everyone. I strive on three principles. Communication, Consistency, Accountability.

The mage messed up and in return disrespected one of my officers and disrespected my guild in general. Core 2 co raid leader knew this and relayed it to the raid leader who which in return ignored it. There was no communication with me and there was no consistency with the punishment that was carried out. He left on bad terms there for he broke our guild policys therefor he should not be invited to guild activities. He is held accountable for his action at hand. Correct? Those are the three policys i strive to follow and that is what i base my decisions on.

Now, I did ask core 2 why on earth would they bring in someone who disrespected the guild. The reply was "He has great dps." Okay. Fine he has great dps but where was the communication with me knowing I had an issue with him from the time he raided with us? "We want to choose our own raiders." I understand you want the freedom to recruit and have your own raiders HOWEVER you have to understand as a guild master my point of view in all this. I have to look at the guild as a whole and not just core 2. I have plenty of people backed up for you to choose from that will be as good if not better as the mage that you brought tonight. I even told you before you raided that I had people. "Well we are bringing him because we have had no problem with him."

This is where my issue lies. THEY had no problem with him so there for it doesnt matter what was said in guild chat or in core 1. It doesnt matter about his attitude or that the GM of the guild is saying he has a problem and feels disrespected by this player. So its pretty much like yeah he caused problems but not for us so go screw yourself. I feel overthroned and I feel disrespected.

Heres another issue that I know if core 2 continues in this guild will blow up. They have a hunter in their core who I have received complaints from just yesterday before this all blew up. Saying how when someone tags a rare he goes in invites them to a group and puts it on master loot so he can get the kill and the loot. Then when hes done he kicks them and says see ya !@#$%es. I went to him and told him and reminded him of our guild policys. I told him I would side with him because I had no evidence that he actually did this and of course he told me his story and it was good to go. Later that night in the guild chat he miss types completely and puts in "WHy are you all tagging my rares you stupid ^-*!@es"

I can already see this is going to be a problem, but now I feel that i cannot touch core 2 members without having a overall riot on my case and being over throned once again. I dont feel secure or feel that the guild policys will stay consistent in core 2. So that's my problem. It wasnt for the fact that they brought him. I could of understand and if they told me they wouldnt do it again case close, but to have the balls and say basically well no matter what you say we're bringing him so thats that. How dare you? Who gives you the right to even question my authority of bluntly say that to me? Theres a way to talk to me. I have earned enough respect to be talked to in a civil manner NOT to be belittled in the guild I have built from day one.

[Darksend]

The mage that joined had only joined the previous week so there was no veteran status and there was no automatic raid spot. He was a trial.

kick em both ... why the heck is your raid leader defending a trial member ...

Simply put, you need raid leaders you can trust, and you really need to reconsider the whole 25 man thing. Get everyone on vent and tell everyone what is going on (problem is when officers try to handle this by themselves and the guild just sees people leaving and joining and have no idea what is going on) get the mage in there let him explain his side, have the core 2 leader explain why he kept the mage, and then kick them both and say "anyone who thinks what I did was wrong feel free to join them, I am the guild leader and while I will listen to and consider all your imputs once i make my desicion that is final ... and what <insert core 2 leaders name> did is just downright disrespectful to myself, the other officers, and will not be tolerated"

As for the hunter I think that is awesome! It is TOTALLY the fault of the person who tagged the mob for accepting the invite in the first place and the hunter is blameless, sorry. (I once had someone who had a rare tagged invite me when the rare was already at 20% and let me roll on the loot ... I was very confused)

[marklar]

As for the hunter I think that is awesome! It is TOTALLY the fault of the person who tagged the mob for accepting the invite in the first place and the hunter is blameless, sorry. (I once had someone who had a rare tagged invite me when the rare was already at 20% and let me roll on the loot ... I was very confused)

you can't be serious...

people often invite others to share the kill achievement; i've had someone do it for me. in appreciation, i passed on the loot since they tagged it first and were nice enough to invite me.

taking advantage of someone's kindness to let you get a kill achievement by effectively tricking them out of the loot is shameful. if anyone in my guild pulled a jackass stunt like that, i would kick them immediately. it's in direct violation of my No Dickheads policy.

[sifuedition]

you can't be serious...

people often invite others to share the kill achievement; i've had someone do it for me. in appreciation, i passed on the loot since they tagged it first and were nice enough to invite me.

taking advantage of someone's kindness to let you get a kill achievement by effectively tricking them out of the loot is shameful. if anyone in my guild pulled a jackass stunt like that, i would kick them immediately. it's in direct violation of my No Dickheads policy.

I'm with you on this. Taking advantage of anyone trying exhibit basic kindness is inexcusable. I don't care how "vulnerable" you make yourself, that is not an invitation to be screwed. If anything, it's a moral thermometer and doing anything to take advantage of it should make you feel like an ass. However, the problem seems to be fully explained with http://www.inquisitr.com/34223/john-...ickwad-theory/

The internet has become a boxing match where the one rule laid out before the bell is "Protect yourself at all times". It's shameful, but that's the way it is. "The way it is" should never be a reason to participate in it. That is merely my justification for never attempting to be kind. I won't invite others and won't accept invites from others for these kinds of activities.

[Exiledknight]

Honestly from what I have read you have only two options.

1. Kick the raid leader of core 2, anyone who mouths off remove them as well. Also kick the hunter, anyone who thinks that taking advantage of someone's kindness or being naive is a complete utter peice of %#$@ and should treated like one as is anyone who condones the action.
2. Try to work things out when they have openly broken the rules and defied your authority, going down this path things will become messier, and core 2 will either leave if you are lucky or destroy your guild.

The bottom line is this, Guilds are not democracies, there is one GM and what that person says goes, if they dont want to listen or like it, fine there is the door. You have already set a precedent that anyone can challenge your authority with no repercussion, you need to swiftly slam that shut or things will get out of hand. It is not always easy but the bottom line is it's 1 guild no matter the raid teams/pvp teams/non raiding members within it, which means 1 set of rules, and 1 leader. Clearly they have no respect for your authority so there is no reason for them to be in the guild, they basically have said we dont care about the guild we care about our 10. You need to say, I care only about my guild and resolve the issue.

[saintlyn]

Also kick the hunter

What did the hunter ever do? ) I like the policy thou

[Theotherone]

A close reading of The Prince is in order.

[Exiledknight]

What did the hunter ever do? ) I like the policy thou

Read back how is abusing people being nice with rare spawns.

[Hyperfish]

Two issues here I see:

1. You basically should of made it clear to the mage that you'd be recruiting specifically for your Core 1 team in the interim period between raids and so he wouldn't have a spot the next raid. Essentially from he's perspective what you've done is give him the hope of a spot and then recruited some more people after he's joined and taken them instead. Basically he's turned up expecting a slot and you're taking people who've just joined, which will piss off anyone. Seems like a breakdown in communication here but I suppose you may need him which leads to the second point.

2. How often to you take members from the second team for your team? I've never been a fan of, 'guilds within guilds', they just don't really work. Your either hardcore or semi-hardcore, not both. Cliques form anyway in guilds but that gets much worse when people are artificially split down the middle. It may have worked with your friend running things but with someone else, (whose most likely a stranger), they lead to resentment and other things, which detract from the guilds objectives, will arise.

It sounds to me that the other leader is using this mage instance to rebel against you. Possibly you like to take decent Core 2 members on your team when others aren't about, thus making it difficult for the other team. Maybe in creating a division within the guild but wanting to have final say in everything, you've undermined the core 2's leader or he feels like a puppet leader. The fact you keep referring to, 'your', guild and how you feel your owed respect by people who don't know you, for things in the past they had nothing to do with, would suggest they may find you overbearing and are looking for an excuse to kick off.

I'm not trying to critise here, (although I do have the feeling we aren't hearing the whole story), I'm just stating it from an outsiders perspective. I feel the only solution moving forward for you is to remove the, 'bad eggs', including the core 2 team, (if there that annoyed and fed up then they'd probably be better making their own guild anyway), and set your stall out as a hardcore progression guild and recruit/play towards that goal. Focus on that and gather like minded people and you'll have much less issues then trying to cater to different play styles and raging when others don't anticipate your wishes.

As a side note the mage and hunters attitudes are of course unacceptable but when your trying to progress to the top for many only the numbers matter...great players who are also good people are hard to find.

[Appleseed]

I feel to disagree with your statements but I dont mind being criticized. Weather or not you feel your hearing the whole story I cant say that you are as I only see my part in this all but this has been solved along time ago, I got worked up into MOP that I forgot this was here until I checked my email.

The solution was simple and I felt that I needed to hear other GM's perspectives. My guild has a great reputation on the server pretty well that we have made friendships with the top 5 guilds on our server. When I got home after pondering about it for 2 days I asked the Gm's of the 5 to meet me in ventrilo. I had an issue I wanted to discuss and 4 of them came along with their officers. We sat down and had a nice long discussion about MOP and then we talked about the issue.

I was pretty much told that if it happened to them they would of booted them on the spot which is what you guys have suggested so thank you for your kind words and thoughts. There comes a time when a guild leader has to take a step back and ask himself if it would be harmful to let them stay? or would it be harmful to let them go. You cant let cancer grow inside your guild. If you let it then all chaos will break lose and you will lose more than just a few members after it has settled and infected your guild.

After the Gm's discussion I waited until the raid leader came on and I asked him to come into ventrilo. He couldnt due to his wife being asleep but said we could talk via whisper. Before I could say anything he pretty much told me he didnt feel his group was going to stay in the guild much longer. I quickly agreed that it was best if they found another haven and that I did feel a bit frustrated. I told him I felt like this guild was used and that the mage was a crutch. He apologized and we wished each other luck. I gave them about 45 minutes after the co raid leader came on and seeing as how they werent leaving I started kicking them one by one. Only one person had something bad to say nothing more nothing less. The raid leader apologized again as did i and that was that. I posted a macro in the guild that told everyone to go read the rules again and get familiar with them once more. I also gave a date of a guild meeting and that if anyone had any questions to feel free to attend and it would all be explained.

I lost 6 players and their alts and that was it. Noone else left the guild or had anything negative to say about it. Its still a wound thats healing but what can you do about it.

The mage ended up joining their guild about a week after this all went down. He was later kicked about a few weeks ago due to the same issues we had before.

As far as your comment about attitudes and being top where numbers matter. I fail to disagree. Quality over quantity.

Hope this helps future guild masters

Thanks again for your replies