How to elevate your guild?

[sifuedition]

Me and two IRL friends created our guild when we started the game years ago but it was just a haven for us. We have always raided in other guilds and this was a home for alts, etc. The GM of our last raiding guild started fading out on us and we decided if we were going to run a guild, it might as well be ours. The other guild was always fairly casual and worked to clear normals before the next patch. For Cata, we managed to get to 3/8 HM before the GM started disappearing. Most of the raiders from that guild followed us when we server transferred mid-Cata and so we have kept a core of about five people. Despite the late start and having to level the guild, we did clear 3/8 HM in DS 10m in our guild as well. After that, attrition really killed us. I’m not sure how much the end-of-expansion boredom contributed to our attrition lately, but we are assuming that was a big issue for us.

Now, we want to change to 25m. Also, we want to make a more serious push at HMs for MoP. We’re going to have to recruit well to make these happen. We seem to have a couple issues there. To get where we want to be, we’d like to recruit selectively for skilled raiders. That creates several issues:
1. We would be holding new recruits to standards we have never enforced in the past on our current raiders.
2. Getting initial interest is hard since we don’t have a pedigree to promote us.
3. When we do get initial interest, our past progression, or lack thereof, discourages interest from recruits.
4. Our current inconsistent attendance and a number of underperforming members have reflected badly on us for a couple of previous recruits. We need to be able to get people in and keep them long enough to finish building.

I really feel that we need an experienced recruiter. However, I’m not sure about how to find that person. Additionally, since we have a lack of people willing to accept responsibility, we have a very undesirable situation. We don’t want to hand responsibility to people we don’t really know.

Many recruits seem to view being a guild member as a business arrangement. For those who see it as a social one also, we get compliments that they like us. Those are the ones we can usually hang onto for a good while. That works pretty well because we don’t want to lose the social aspect and we don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with being able to clear HMs. We don’t need to be server first, we just don’t want to be server last, lol. We want to be able to do it on two nights a week but I have been able to get some concessions to consider three nights a week.

We understand that we will have to make some really hard decisions with guildies we like but who might not be capable of HMs. Until we have an alternative, however, we can’t exactly sit them. We probably need to have a guild meeting to explain the officer’s vision and see if everyone is on-board. If they are, then we can set expectations and then hold people accountable since expectations have been set. I worry that this will still cause some drama but I don’t see any way around that. If they are not on-board, then we will have to set expectations about wanting them in the guild but not having a raid spot for them in the main group.

We also know that we will probably have to get improvement out of some of our current raiders. We at least need to let them know the standards we will have for recruits and that those standards will apply to them too. I don't see them really improving unless they feel the need to. I am usually the source of info for class knowledge, raid mechanics, etc. I don't think many of our guild members who were with us from the previous guild ever read guides etc. They have me and they consider that good enough. For instance, there are at least three or four that come to me after every upgrade. I simcraft them and wowreforge them to get them set up. Some of our newer members are more self reliant and usually ok, even though they may not be exceptional. For instance, I'm a prot pally with ret OS. On single tank fights, I'm usually top dps despite still having about four pieces of lfr gear.

Just looking to see what wisdom the old reliable Tankspot can bring to our situation.

[Leucifer]

Man, reading this sounds so damn familiar. I ran into a lot of the same issues with my old guild and saw a lot of the same problems with two of the other guilds I ran with. The theme I see time and time again is that....everyone wants to be in a top-notch raiding guild, but no one wants to slowly build one. They don't want to accept a less-than-perfect player.... they want the superstar right out the gate, but they aren't established and the other players are unknowns to that player. And it seems to be the same issue with even a lot of GOOD (not great) established guilds. They want the best, but the best don't want to go to those guilds because they aren't the best.

The main thing I can really suggest is get out there. Get that core group of you together regularly and run "pick-up" games. Run some dungeons with a new 5th person or run a raid with that core group, even if it's older content, and just have fun with it. While you're doing that, observe those people. Are they doing things right? Are they approaching even old content in a thoughtful, planned manner? Are they having fun and enjoying being with the group?

A fair example was a player that "we" acquired through a pug To4W run. There were 3 players in that group whose guild had recently collapsed and they were good players who were just "bored" late night. We ran a nice pug run through To4W, and added each other on our friends lists. We kept in touch, invited those guys first as "pugs" to our regular guild runs when we were short bodies, and eventually, 2 of them joined in full time.

I'd have to say that..... honestly.... if you're looking for people who want to invest in your guild and help it become something great, you need to find people of that mindset. If you go chasing after people with the idea in mind that you're just looking for a great player to prop up your guild and just improve your performance, beware..... because you're likely going to land a person who is just looking to prop up themselves and their way to their next step.

But.... if you invest in the "right" person, and can show that the guild has a vested interest in them being part of something..... chances are, the people you REALLY want are going to return that in kind.

[Leucifer]

Wow. Seriously? No one else has something to add? Aggathon? Lore? Anyone else who has ever had to be involved in guild leadership?

[marklar]

you may be trying to make too big of a jump. trying to go from 3/8H 10 man to "serious 25 HM progression" is going to be really tough, especially at only 2 nights per week. you need to build a 30-35 man roster to even have a chance at that.

i'd suggest staying at the 10-man size for now, but building multiple raid groups. this way you can have a primary progression group, and other groups with less stringent requirements. it solves some of your problems with people you like to raid with, but are holding back progression.

DON'T try and raid lead multiple groups; i've done that and it's not fun. recruit experienced raid leaders for the other groups. eventually, you may end up with more than 2 teams, and you may end up with 2 very good teams. when that happens, the competition between progression groups adds another element that can be a lot of fun, as long as it's kept lighthearted.

it helps with your recruitment as well, especially for those being recruited for the primary group. saying you're looking for someone for your progression team is always a boost.

also, 2 nights a week is not a lot. i'd definitely recommend going to three, for at least 3 hours.

finally, take personality as a primary consideration, not an afterthought. if someone doesn't fit in with the raid team, that will do more to harm your progression than their performance, no matter how good they can mash buttons.

[sifuedition]

Thanks for the feedback. We have typically raided 2 nights for 4 hours so that's only an hour less per week than 3x3. Whether or not i can get a consensus on 3x3, idk but Im trying.

As to the jump, is clearing hardmodes before the next tier that big of a jump? Sorry if i misrepresented our goals when i said "more serious" By that, i just meant that it was an actual goal instead of something to do with extra time after we clear normals. We recognize that even server first should be well out of our reach. We really haven't set goals as far as clearing at a specific point in the nerfs.

We actually did try the multiple 10m groups. Unfortunately, our consistency in the second and third groups was poor and ended up being half alts. Also, having reliable raid leads was a big issue. Most people that can be trusted to lead don't want to be in a second or third group and are usually wanted in the main group.

I felt that was the best way for us to get to the point we wanted to be but the other founders kind of gave up on it due to the lackluster results in Cata as well as the amount of work to maintain that. I personally don't think leading a 25 will be much easier than 2 or 3 10m but....

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[Takethecake]

I've never tried to upgrade from 10 to 25 before but we did start a new 25 man guild towards the end of wrath so I can tell you some of the key things we had that helped.

First and foremost recruiting officer was a very active role for us. Our recruiter spent hours and hours each day going through wow forums and lemings ect trying to find competent players. The personality of the recruiter I feel played a very large part in the quality of the recruits we obtained. We weren't pushing for server achievements or anything, but simply said we wanted quality players and above all down to earth people with good personalities. Never cut and paste on the recruitment forums and actively post and search every day in order to build your roster to the size you need. We started with around 12-15 players when we formed the guild and recruited all the rest in order to fill our rosters and have been progressing very well since then. Me personally I feel that our guild is like a family owned business were everyone is friends and while their is the interguild dynamics we strive to recruit people that we feel will fit that dynamic. You'd be amazed how many extremely talented players we have turned away that could have easily topped meters but were turned away simply because we didn't feel they would fit into the guild as a person.

The raid leader's ability to lead the raid also plays a large part in the success of the guild. Having a good raid leader can make or break a new guild, from being able to know the strengths and weaknesses of the roster to being able to adjust strats and cooldowns on the fly during a fight. Also a large part is being able to handle all the players in the guild/roster to keep them focused while still having fun. It's much like being a good boss in a work environment and is key to building and maintaining a good raiding guild I feel.

[Valhathos]

While I'm not a vet of the forums, I do have plenty of experience as a raid leader, and in a rather a-typical raiding guild.

I would echo what's been said here about smaller steps. One thing that I would say to look for is another guild in your position. They're out there. I promise you that.

I had a guild with RL friends until part way into BC when I left to try raiding with one of my servers top 3 raiding guilds (at the time). I loved it, but then due to RL situations, I had to step down. I returned to my guild and took over as guild leader again. It wasn't long before life slowed down again and I still had the itch to raid. I started my guild into Kara (most of them hadn't raided at all). We only had 6-7 people usually and would always pug the last few. Some days it was painful, but it would all work out in the end.

I started Wrath with high hopes of building a full 10 man team, excited about the options for 10 man groups. I got stuck. I lost a few people due to RL/quitting, and finding new people was proving difficult. Then one day, I ran a heroic with a feral druid and it changed everything. He and his brother ran a PVP guild but wanted to push into raiding but didn't know where to start. Here I was, trying to cobble together a group, and needed talented bodies. They were FANTASTIC at PVP and it really transitioned well into raiding. Their awareness and ability to maintain composure during "oh crap" moments really helped us early on. We merged, and I became the Raid Leader. Even then, we only had about 9 qualified, consistent raiders. Pugging the final 1, we one day found our new member. We lost a few, but every time we did, the people we'd pick up along the way always seemed to have "a friend" that could join, step up, and be better than the person that left. It was truly an amazing experience. It honestly wasn't long before we were pugging 25s on the off nights from our 10s and picking up even more people, talking about running 2 10s, etc. Watching it grow was a very rewarding experience and I made some great friends along the way that I still keep in touch with, even though some don't play wow anymore.

As a Raid Leader, I acknowledged what our group was capable of and knew what to expect out of them. I would let things get off course occasionally and try to keep things fun. Some days, we'd flying out to or summoning at the raid, and we'd end up spending half the night getting into it with alliance, and I was ok with that, as long as everyone was having fun (we had a reputation ally side). Now, this didn't put us at the cutting edge of progression, but what it did was build strong relationships within the group. By the end or wrath, I had a pretty elite group of raiders on my hands. Had Cata not sucked so much (we all hated it) I would have had a KILLER base for a great 25m guild.

Now, I took a pretty slow, long path, but my point is, the journey there is more rewarding than getting there overnight. Gear is good, but there is always better gear to be had. The stories, the memories, that's what's the most rewarding. Building something from the ground up and watching it work is a fantastic feeling, especially when you had to take the hard road to get there.