But tanks only consistently top damage meters in 5 mans when the DPS are atrocious...Kinda like how we out DPS people in LFR too.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=186#3701We changed how Vengeance works.
Vengeance is intended to let tanks generate additional damage and threat as content levels rise, despite not gearing for it (or at least not primarily). We're changing the design to let Vengeance play better with active mitigation, but the new design has some other advantages many of you will like.
As most all of you know by now, the idea of active mitigation is that the buttons a tank presses directly contribute to mitigation and survival. In some cases, this is timing-centric, such as Death Strike. In others, it’s both timing-centric and also involves balancing how you spend your resources among multiple abilities, such as Savage Defense vs. Frenzied Regeneration or Shield Block vs. Shield Barrier. In the latter case, it’s important that both abilities are compelling and compete well with each other. We are changing Vengeance to let those abilities be balanced.
I'm going to use Savage Defense (a short duration large dodge buff) and Frenzied Regen (a large instant heal) as examples. Getting the balance between SD and FR right is challenging. We want SD to win on average, but you’re limited on how often you can use it, and it’s not necessarily reliable -- sometimes you really need a heal NOW, and so FR is the right button. SD should win, but FR shouldn’t be too far behind, and they should scale similarly.
SD scales with the incoming damage: if BossA hits you for 60k, and BossB hits you for 120k, then SD is twice as valuable (in absolute terms) on BossB than on BossA. FR scales with your attack power: even a few 5man trash mobs will cap out your Vengeance, so your AP will be the same on BossA as on BossB. FR isn’t any stronger on BossB than BossA.
On top of that, AP and boss damage scales differently as ilevel rises. We tried a solution to that problem where FR scaled exponentially with AP in the last build. That has worked fairly well, but still failed at keeping SD and FR balanced when boss damage was significantly different from the baseline we used as a tuning point. For example, 25-player raid bosses hit twice as hard as 10-player raid bosses, which makes SD twice as valuable.
But wasn’t this post supposed to be about Vengeance? Currently, Vengeance increases your AP by 5% of the damage taken, stacking up to the cap, which happens quickly. We are changing Vengeance to increase AP equal to 5% of the damage you take for 20 sec. This buff will "roll" so that as it gets refreshed the unused part is added to the new buff, similar to how Ignite or Stagger work. The net result will be that Vengeance stacks by the amount of DPS being thrown at you over 20 sec. There is no cap.
-- Avoidance will not count against you. Avoiding an attack will extend the current Vengeance stack back to 20 sec (as if you were hit again for the same DPS).
-- Blocks, absorbs, Stagger and Shield of the Righteous will also not count against you. The damage before these effects is used for the Vengeance calculation.
-- To reduce ramp up time, we bump you up to halfway to whatever your average Vengeance level would be based on each individual hit. Essentially, we skip the first 10 sec of ramping.
-- Tank damage in 5-player groups will decrease. We think this is a good chance because it is weird and demoralizing when tanks consistently top damage meters in dungeons.
-- Tank damage in 25-player groups will increase. We think this is a good change because it makes tank DPS as relevant in 25-player raids as it is in 10-player raids.
-- With this change, Brewmaster damage will be extremely overpowered. We will fix it, but you may get a build where they are ludicrously good.
The rest of this post is nitty gritty details for theorycrafters. You do NOT need to read or understand this in order to effectively play a tank.
-- Whenever you get hit, Vengeance is added based on the damage of the hit before block, crit block, absorbs, stagger, and Shield of the Righteous.
-- Whenever you avoid an attack from a mob where MobLevel>=TankLevel-3, your existing Vengeance is extended to 20sec remaining.
-- Based on how hard you’re hit, we estimate how high Vengeance’s equilibrium point will be: DamageTaken / 1.5.
-- If you’re not at least half that high on Vengeance, we bump you up to that amount
-- The new Vengeance value is calculated as: 0.05 * DamageTaken + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20
-- Frenzied Regeneration and Shield Barrier’s formulae have changed to:
Frenzied Regeneration at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Agi*2), Sta*2.5)
Shield Barrier at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Str*2), Sta*2.5)
-- Yes, these do mean that it uses your AP without base AP from Str/Agi (but does still slightly include AP from Agi/Str when you’ve got the 10% AP raid buff or other +%AP buffs).
-- Please feel free to ask any questions you have about the mechanical details of this.
Last edited by Fetzie; 08-07-2012 at 05:38 PM.
But tanks only consistently top damage meters in 5 mans when the DPS are atrocious...Kinda like how we out DPS people in LFR too.
I loved early cata when I could consistently top damage in the heroics... was so much fun. Being a 25 man raider I'm really excited to see bigger numbers in my future. It was a good point though, SBar would have been much more effective in 10 mans the previous way.
I'm actually liking this change - it ties in the power behind your avoidances to how hard the thing you're fighting is. One thing this will do, though, is it'll make it somewhat easier to onetank things instead of twotank -- if you are the off-cycle tank, you won't be taking very much damage over 20 seconds, and therefore your Vengance will drop off to nil. On the other hand, absent some break-the-tank debuff, if you one tank it, you'll be pumping out consistently high damage with high survivability.
I don't get what you mean; vengeance fell off pretty quick before this change. Its a couple of quality of life changes, no longer will a lucky avoidance streak screw over you're initial scaling, and we can legitimately bitch at DPS who can't get above the tank in 5-mans without them whinging that its vengeance scaling rather than their own inability to press buttons.
I guess what I was trying to say was that it is to your advantage to one tank things as soon as possible. I've noticed a very large gap between an un-Venganced tank and a Vengance-capped tank in live -- and that's with a cap. If you have no cap on your Vengance in raids, then you want to keep the boss hitting you enough that you keep your Vengance as high as possible. Swapping to another tank (Morchok and Yorsohj come to mind) for longer than 20 seconds won't kill you due to the 1/2 average up thing, but it might kill your DPS somewhat.
Another nuance is that if it's 5% of the damage you take for 20 seconds, I have to wonder if it means you will get more Vengance if you pull larger packs of mobs than one or two...
It's interesting that the blue separates out druids and warriors specifically for this, in the sense that they know the tuning isn't quite right yet. Here's hoping. Where I am right now on my druid as of this weekend is my Stam x 2.5 is apparently higher than my AP - Agil*2 numbers, so it didn't move my FR numbers. But then again, I was questing outdoors. Meanwhile, my paladin's SP (buffed by AP+Vengance scaling) kept going up for bigger heals despite being one level lower.
There would still be an effective cap, even if Blizzard doesn't actually limit it. Your damage cap over the course of 20 seconds is the maximum amount of damage you can receive and be healed through for that 20 second timespan. In the case of a 200k tank.... assuming they're taking 50k per second in damage... you're looking at 1,000,000 damage over that full 20 sec. That'd set you up with about 50k in vengeance-fueled attack power, going off of very rough math. If.... IF somehow the tank could be healed through 190k per second.... you'd have a staggering 190k in AP.
If you could survive it.
You'd also probably be crushing all contenders in dps.
That.... would lead me to think they would cap it. You'd have your tank leading the dps charts.
Now.... one interesting idea, would be to tie/split the vengeance stack into a threat/vengeance stack. Increasing threat and ap as a result. Would certainly create a drive to let a tank build a lead on a target.
No one tanks in a void.........
Right now they way they set up bear tanks is they want you to go crit/haste as soon as you get hit/expertise capped. As in, 'hi, we're giving you multipliers to your haste and crit that we neglected to give cats, have fun.' This is because your crits give you rage and your haste gives you more chances for crit.
I just got to play with the new version tonight - it shows a 20 second timer that gets reset when I dodge.
Not currently impressed. Even with six outdoor quest mobs piled on me, I didn't crack the scaling AP->FR barrier. I got up to a sustained 13K AP, which is less than 2.5*my stamina. So my FR stayed at 30K. Which was not enough to keep me up. Maybe it'll be better in a dungeon, but dangit, I should _not_ need a pocket healer to finish non-elite quests! Even knowing my rotation, I couldn't build 60 Rage fast enough to keep SD up, so everytime it was down, I got chewed on harder, and it was a slow downhill battle that accelerated if I used more FR than SD.
And if you say, 'well, why were you pulling six mobs at once?' Because four of them were linked and the last two were patrols that came by while I was fighting. Even four mobs was about the max I could handle after I got my corpse back. This is while pulling out all the stops -- the healing cooldowns, the barkskin and SI, the Nature's Grasp to keep one off of me.... still a tough fight.
While I admit that these were level 90 mobs to my level 89 bear druid, here's the kicker -- I brought my level 88 paladin and deliberately pulled all six mobs. No cooldowns, just the standard rotation, alternating Holy Light and WoG when I got up to five stacks or I got in trouble. And .... killed 'em all without being in real trouble once my Vengance was up to more AP that would let both heals hit for over 40K heals. Oh, and the ShoTR? Let me -absorb- bunches of hits. :| Not something that bears can do.
So all the extra bennies for being a bear? Not nearly enough.
I am not sure if levelling dungeons is what Blizzard meant, although I have heard mutterings from MoP tanks that their soloing dps is now markedly worse. We may be going back to the pre-Wrath world when soloing as a tank was painful - I hope not.
That's not how it is in my experience. at least not level20+ as a warrior. if i tanked a dungeon i did x dps, if i went arms i did >x dps. The problem is not vengeance, the problem is lots of people don't know how to play their class; DPS shammies who don;t know what shocks are, hunters who don't use anything except steady shot and arcane shot, ret pallies using shields, etc. Blizzard really need to work on their tutorial interface, the Core abilities tab in the spell book in beta is good, but it really should have something to say, you really should use an x handed weapon, or you should try to stick to using str/int/agi gear.
I don't have much of a pain questing as prot in the current beta build, IF vengeance works , I'm having issues with it proccing everywhere, even in 5 mans it takes a few zone-ins/respecs/stance changes to get it to activate.
Regarding the Marks hunter alt I leveled on live over the past few months, Arcane and Steady shot are your bread and butter for the majority of your leveling career. Your position relative to the tank in damage is determined by
1: Is this a boss (you should beat the tank) or trash (you can probably keep pace with the tank) pull?
2: Do you have BOAs? Alternatively, is your weapon up to date? Have you gotten something aside from blue intellect shoulders from your last six dungeon finder bags?
3: Did you spam arcane shot and steady shot hard enough?
Once you get into the 60-70 range, other factors start coming into play like "are you stealing killing blows to keep rapid recuperation going on trash?", "now that you get free occasional aimed shots, did it proc before the boss died?", and "Are you juggling your focus so you have enough to use Chimera Shot when it comes off cooldown?"
And of course "You remembered to use Rapid Fire, right?"
But yeah, there's a really long stretch of "arcane arcane arcane steady steady arcane arcane steady steady etc." Most other players did seem to be having issues out-damaging the tank, especially if the tank knew what he was doing on trash.
Looking at the way marks hunters are set up on beta, it's STILL arcane + steady until level 50-60.
Maybe if the tanks aren't doing so much damage the leveling dpsers will have time to learn to stay out of the fire and what buttons to push when?
Some new data - I ran into an elite silver mob that had a ground effect bomb attack that hit for 219K. Since I didn't know what to expect and survived, I was -very- surprised when my unglyphed FR healed me for 110K(!) and my Vengance was up around 70K. The cap is indeed off on the beta, at least (live game is currently broken for me, danged #132 error), and I started playing tag with the mob to get a feel for the system.
Lots of little hits don't do much for Vengance scaling -- one BIG hit, however, does. Reason is that the formula above says 'if you aren't up at (Damage Taken / 1.5)/2, we put you there. So I got a giant Vengance jump until it averaged itself off over the next 20 seconds.
What this means:
-- If a boss hits you like a truck, you can, in fact, recover reasonably well.
-- Lots of little mobs will still overwhelm you, like outdoors questing.
-- If you want to amp up your Vengance... you actually _want_ to take the big hit instead of getting out of it.
At least for druids, anyway. It turned Frenzied Regen from fairly useless to 'oh hey, it can actually heal me back up to full within 1-3 casts now...' Shield Barrier doesn't heal you, I imagine, but if your healer can bring you back up, you'll have a super effective shield for the next 20 seconds (or until the next big hit, whichever comes first).
The feel of it is ... weird. You'll want to put up a major cooldown, take the hit, and then put up your FR / SB immediately so it is at the highest effective level. All our instincts say 'avoid the big hit if you can do so' but now you have 'if I don't need the cooldown for something else, parry with your face and take the Vengance buff...
...okay, now I want to go tank Chimaeron and Baelroc to see how big I can get the heal.
A slight problem with this system is that when you're working with two tanks, and you pick up the boss from the OT right after they've gotten a mass Vengance buff, you're not taking the same hits to get your Vengance to that level. Theirs is dropping off, yes, but yours is not getting increased to their level. So let's say that on Madness, you taunt a tentacle, the other tank gets Impaled, and they get a major Vengance buff that you won't get.... so they're going to take it right back from you from white damage. At least in theory, anyway. I'll find out on Thursday if I can get Live working.
Minor note: On the tooltip for Vengance on the beta, it says 2% of damage taken over 20 seconds, not 5%.
Definately used to doing great aoe dps in 5-mans but what surprised me was on Heroic Madness the other night doing between 45 and 50k dps due to having periods of my attack power being over 130,000. I had executes in the 700,000 range and shield slams in the 500,000 range after impales.
This really doesn't seem like it is working as intended, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts.
I'm halfway wondering that if this model of Vengance (no cap) stays where it is, we might want to consider the possibility of trading off the boss to the OT on two tank fights every 10 seconds or so unless the boss mechanics dictate otherwise (needing to drop a debuff).
You'd get the benefits of both tanks having higher Vengance instead of one tank having no Vengance and the other tank having it all, and since Vengance powers our abilities and AP-based damage, a pair of tanks working in tandem might see both better damage and better defensive skills.
I can also see this leading to bad habits as a tank realizes that hogging the boss helps him/her climb the damage meters (and for druids and paladins, the healing meters(!)) since their Vengance AP affects their healing abilities) and they'll want to have the boss more often than not in order to keep their Vengance stack high.
Also, a part of the new 'need Vengance from any source' mindset actually rewards us for standing in stuff; as the non-tank on Pong (Zon'ozz), I got enough Vengance from being hit by the ball to climb to 83% of the threat of the main tank despite spending all of the first round of ball bouncing in cat form and never taunting the boss once.
Should see how high I can push my HPS as prot, Shield barrier's an absorb after all. I think you're gonna see alot of one tank fights, or fights where if you have 2 tanks one of them not in a position to DPSing or otherwise unable to taunt swap every 10 seconds.
Originally Posted by Kahmal
you'd have to get your swaps dead right to stop vengeance falling off with 20second taunts. TBh I think in most cases where this would be applicable you'd only take one tank anyway.
EDIT: looking at the MSV encounters, Stone Guard requires 2 tanks, where one they have to sequentially rotate which of the 4 mobs is helod on its own to one side. Feng has a 20 second debuff, so you can t really taunt swap to share vengeance, Gara'jal you might be able to though if you screw it up you risk a feckton of raid damage, Spirit Kings you could feasably one tank, Elegon has adds, and they have a 20 second debufg and Will of the emperor has multiple targets.
Last edited by Tengenstein; 09-11-2012 at 08:41 PM.