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Thread: Survival Instincts: A (Somewhat) Official Guide to Druid Guardian Tanking

  1. #81
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    Yes you should have to back off after a tuant swap. Very yes if the other tank is not expertise capped. IF this guide is aimed at newish tanks then definetly expertise cap; It may not be best of survivability or initial threat, but what it does it make you consistent, and it a lot easier for a inexpierenced tank to tank if he doesn't suddenly have to deal with be rage starved or suddenly have to deal with losing multiple mobs becuase they got parried.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  2. #82
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    I been afk for about 2 weeks only to come back to a whole page od texts

    I wanne add a couple of points myself on the whole last page of posts

    - CW v renewal -> i have since droppped CW and started using renewal for 2 reasons, higher ilvl is increasing my hp to the point where renewal is good enough healing wise. And secondly (imho most importantly) it is off GCD, meaning u can use it whenever without losing a GCD for a mangle or something else.

    - meta gem choice: if you do not have acces to the legendairy meta -> agi/3% crit dmg, yes i know i myself said there is no advantage for gemming agi over the double value secondairy stats gems, but for metas this is different. That 3% crit dmg in a crit build is immense. If you however, have completed the collect 20 secrets part of the legendairy chain, the crit dps gem is simply OP and will imo get nerfed eventually, but untill then, get it. It increased my dps by approx 15-20% depending on RNG. Wich brings me to my last point.

    - considering yourself a dps: most druids run with a crit build. meaning the dmg output, if played properly should be decent. I think, why shouldnt we focus on pushing as much dmg as possible? Killing a boss faster, even if enrage timers arent an issue, is still beneficial overall. Beeing able to clear more content in the same time is always better than the oposite ^^ I will take Jin rokh as an example. Sure u can tank him outside the pool and no have to worry about the static busrt damaging ppl in the water. Sure you could use incar on tank swap to make sure you hold aggro. What i do is different however. Play like a dps with the ability for a boss to smack u in the face and not fall over and die Meaning, I pre pot -> beserk. Tank it in the pool, use incar when in the pool AND with a decent vengeance stack + re pot. On our last heroic JR kill i was top dps, granted, i have the legendairy meta, but our dps are far from bad, I produced a whooping 200k dps. Tank dps is, imho, an important part of the overall dps.


    anyway, thats my input. I hope the points were helpfull to some1 out there ^^


    * a link to the JR kill WoL http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/pc9z6e4rfpomcl6a/sum/damageDone/?s=1104&e=1351

  3. #83
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    Minor status update:
    The two set bonus for T15 (each dodge while SD is active adds 10% to the next FR you use, stacking up to 10 times, 10s buff duration) is better than it looks on some fights. Where it shines is when you're dealing with multiple adds meleeing on you all at once, because each attack that you dodge counts as 1 towards the stack and refreshes the stack each time. If you're the bat tank on Horridon, it really shows off its worth, as you will be at 10 stacks (2xFR with a Vengeance stack up makes even an under-Raged FR still do something useful) but on something like Garalon, who doesn't swing very fast, not so much. Remember it has to be a melee swing, though, since that's the only thing that you can dodge. I'd recommend going with a hybrid 2T14 (lowers the cooldown of Might of Ursoc by a minute)/2T15 combo rather than the 4 set of either one, at least until you can fill out 502 or better in your remaining slots. Also, going with that makes Renewal a little more attractive, since now you have alternating 30% health restores every other minute (2 minute cooldown on each, use one every minute as needed).

    And Tjomek: I got my legendary DPS meta last week, and it is as good as advertised. It clocked in nicely at 14.5% of my DPS for the entire night, which was instrumental in our group's one shot of Horridon last night (second kill ever) as I put up 30K DPS more week over week. I'll be testing out the stam legendary meta next, as soon as I get another hat I can put it in -- I have a backup T14-based stam set I can use if stam is an issue.

    -T.

  4. #84
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    so they're buffing mastery an awful lot now....any thoughts on that being a viable gem/reforge option over crit? do just to the active mitigation from more mastery instead of the proc'd mastery from SD?

  5. #85
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    Me personally, i love the buff but i will still remain to ignore mastery as it only protects from physicle, a full on rage build protects you from melee (throu high SD uptime) and spelldmg (throu lots of FR)

    @ Tielyn: Looks like they stealth fixed the proc rate for the dps meta when used by a guardian. Its still a higher dps increase compared to other tanks that use the meta but less of a gap
    Last edited by Tjomek; 05-20-2013 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #86
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    Budlyght -- I'll check into it this evening, but even with a buff, I don't see Mastery as a viable mainline gear respec/reforge; as Tjomek says, you're still better off working with Rage generation any way you see best and taking your survival into your own hands.

    I see it more as a 'since we know folks are not spec'ing into Mastery, we're making it more attractive/useful no matter what level you have it at.' At the moment, I'm carrying a set of high mastery gear (since I'm feral offspec normally), and switching to the cat set added 10% Mastery and got me a whopping 1% extra damage reduction, roughly. Remember we already got a buff back in 5.2, so they're adjusting the numbers so we're less squishy baseline.

    Tjomek -- I was wondering about that. It seemed like week over week the damage contribution went down a chunk, from 19% to 12%. Knew it was too good to last. Do you have confirmation of this somewhere, or is it just the sense of it, like I have?

    Also: Does anyone else use Weakauras? I've been playing with Theck's paladin setups (I had a long weekend) and have started putting together some experimental bear buttons; any interests or requests?

    -T.

  7. #87
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    Just to clarify a 1% increase in damage reduction isn't going to be a 1% decrease in damage taken (all other things being equal). Say for example with out the buff you have a 75% damage reduction from armour. so when you get hit for 100K you take 25K, if you got buffed and now have a 76% DR from armour you would only get hit for 24K thats actually a 4% decrease in damage taken.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 05-21-2013 at 04:46 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #88
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    I agree with you guy, and so do the majority of bears, that using geming/reforging for crit is better due to the better rage generation (plus damage done) but when is it enough crit. Im currently at 52.5% crit in bear form without any raid buffs and 120k armor. Dont know if there is a sweet spot that you guys are going for as far as how much crit you want or if its just a "no such thing as too much" train of thought. Thanks for the help yall

  9. #89
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    No matter what your mastery is, every little bit will help, yes. But it takes a lot of mastery to go a little ways further -- some numbers post-patch now that I'm sitting in front of my character sheet:

    My normal 'tanking' set: 46% crit, 28.01% Mastery, 100,443 Armor (68.47% damage reduction)
    Switching to my Mastery-heavy cat set: 37% crit, 43.18% Mastery, 109,935 armor, (70.38% damage reduction).

    That's trading off 9% crit for the extra damage reduction, and I'm not sure I really want to give that much crit up for so little damage reduction, even if it's more than the 2% on the sheet less damage taken.

    As far as 'is there a sweet spot' -- if you hit 100% crit, let me know. Seems like 522 gear can get you up to 50% now if you gem heavy crit, but because I've been nominated as the bat tank on Tortos and my Stam is a little low-ish, I've been having to trade off pure crit for crit/stam so the bats don't eat me. Mostly because right after a Quake Stomp, that was taking me under the 350K mark, and there's a timing flux point where the whole flock of bats are there at the same time and it's an instant death without some sort of defensive cooldown running. So as Sejta said, 'go in as DPS, regem for more survival as needed.'

    Also, random find about Haste -- unlike other DoT-based classes, it does not improve your ticks on Lacerate. All it really does is reduce your melee white damage timer, which is probably why they put in Tooth and Claw to make using Haste and Maul a little more attractive.

    -T.

  10. #90
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    Haste only improves caster DoT/Hot tick speeds, Hunters, Rogues, Warrior, Deathknights and Druids arent' casters and such haste doesn't affect our dots

    and thats 9% crit for 6% less physical damage taken.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #91
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    So noted. I've been noodling about with my resto druid spec for the past few weeks and working on my Demonology 'lock, and researching the haste vs. ticks on those classes, and I'd never uncovered that the haste only was useful for caster classes. Learned something new!

    And I was thinking about the damage reduction versus crit tradeoff while driving to work this morning. 6% less physical damage might be pretty damned useful on some fights -- but is it better if you're mitigating down from one giant hit (Horridon) or bunches of smaller ones (Tortos as the bat tank)? If so, it might be worth setting up a stam/mastery set (as much as the thought makes me grit my teeth) just for heavy damage progression attempts...

    The Weakauras thing I'm playing with is a timing meter for Lacerate and Thrash that has a Venegance counter on top of it, shamelessly modified off of Theck's Paladin one -- it shows your current damage values applied to the boss versus roughly what you'll put on if you refresh them. This isn't terribly useful for damage mitigation, mind, but what it's really good for is keeping high ambient DoTs (and the resulting threat) on your main target (it's the difference between having a DoT that does 23Kx5 versus 8Kx5 in live testing so far, but finding that Haste doesn't give it more ticks means that it's somewhat less. I'm slowly adding things to it as I figure out what I want in there before I download what he did and discover I've reinvented the wheel.

    -Tielyn

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    And I was thinking about the damage reduction versus crit tradeoff while driving to work this morning. 6% less physical damage might be pretty damned useful on some fights -- but is it better if you're mitigating down from one giant hit (Horridon) or bunches of smaller ones (Tortos as the bat tank)? If so, it might be worth setting up a stam/mastery set (as much as the thought makes me grit my teeth) just for heavy damage progression attempts...
    -Tielyn
    I'd expect mastery to be more useful for large hits: the issue with Savage Defense is that healers can't count on avoidance for giant hits they'll need to heal through. So if you have SD up and end up dodging a Snapping Bite, your healers may be timing their large heals to drop just at the Bite and not be able to cancel out of it in time to save the mana.

    Unlike block, our mitigation all kind of works the same way, taking a flat percentage out of the long-run damage, so you're not really getting any big edge for SD-rage versus mastery, but the random nature of dodge lends itself better to lots of little hits, because you'll generally end up taking about the same amount of damage over a given period of time.

    I'm tempted to start looking at Mastery, because I feel like I'm pretty good on SD uptime (especially with a tank swap: often I can start with 100 rage, go SD into Incarnation or Berserk, and blow all three charges, with enough leftover Rage to keep it up as charges come back for the duration of my tanking time). I imagine once I fill out my 4pc T15 I'll be even better off. After you get your SD charges to near full, all that's left is blowing FR, and it feels like it's really hard to get the full effect of that without capping on rage sometimes. Is Glyph of FR just useless now since it's not affected by 2pc T15?

    EDIT: Just because there's no point in double posting: Tengenstein, what kind of stat weights are you using? Is it just like a Mastery after Crit deal? Are you aiming for a specific crit number before going deep Mastery?
    Last edited by Q_221; 05-28-2013 at 12:23 PM.

  13. #93
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    I'm a warrior. I know for our rage gen needs we need to be generating about 8.8rps on average so deviations from that never drop us below the 6.6rps we need to keep Sblock on CD, assuming your doing the same as druid i'd get to that pont and then go heavy mastery for non-trivial content.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  14. #94
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    I've played around a little with this, reworking my stat weights to put Mastery over haste. It looks like to make any significant gain though, I'd have to start dropping crit, which means figuring out exactly what kind of numbers we'd need to maintain SD.

    We have the same rage generation needs as warriors (I didn't actually realize that Shield Block used that charge mechanic), so maybe it's worth trying this: I could see adjusting slightly higher than warriors because we may benefit from slowly building up a FR to drop at maxed stacks, but I'm having a hard time landing FRs effectively.

    I keep looking at Glyph of FR and thinking it's exactly what we want though: there's no way we will ever cap over Glyphed FR AND SD, that'd be 16.66 RPS. 40% bonus healing is a pretty massive boost, and given that tanking is not as spiky as it used to be, it should be highly effective. I'm concerned that because crit, haste, and expertise all kind of synergize with each other, going into Mastery is a less effective use of stats compared to finding another way to keep RPS going. It sucks to have to waste the 2pc (and having to reglyph for soloing is a pain), but it's honestly kind of a weak 2pc: it seems pretty rare in my experience that the stars align when your healers are busy, you have large amounts of stacks, and you have the rage to drop a non-trivial FR. Glyphed FR is easy: you throw out SD as much as you can, and if you don't have a SD stack coming up soon when you're about to cap rage, you pop FR.

  15. #95
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    I'm a lot leery about glyphing for FR, mostly because it puts a huge reliance on the healers to be on the spot with that heal when you need it while you have your FR up in that 6 second window. While the argument is there that it makes it easier for the healers to heal you when they do, it means having a dedicated healer that isn't going to get stunned, frozen, or lagged. Having a solid Vengeance-boosted FR on tap, even a partial one, has saved my life enough that the healers have commented that I am the least spiky-squishy tank they heal, because while they're queueing up a heal, I've already recovered a chunk of that giant sized pair of hits (Triple Puncture's 280K + a Melee right after at 230K at high stacks leaves 2 seconds to heal them up before the next melee attack kills tanks with less than 700K health) I took from Horridon. I'm usually upwards of 20-30% of my own heals, and my tanks that don't self-heal get clobbered. :P

    We're the only ones with a healing buff active defense that relies on another person to push their buttons at the right time, when glyphed, and the hard 60 limit to have it available makes it even less attractive. Maybe if I was going Mastery/Stam I'd consider it more -- but suppose I could experiment if I warn the healers ahead of time.

    (thinking out loud) ...on the OTHER hand... fights where SD is mostly useless might be the best fights to have glyphed FR in place of SD, because you'll be hitting that every 6 seconds instead of SD. Still relies on the healers to keep you up, but it'll be a lot easier for them to do so.

    (edited later to add): Circular logic: Healers that are OOM can't do anything for you when you're glyphed FD, but you can generate 60 rage in less time that it takes the average healer to generate enough for one big heal. Ask yourself in your personal experience, 'how often have you been in fights where the healers go OOM and you're the only one keeping yourself up via FR and cooldowns?' But the other half of that is, 'would the healers be OOM if they spent less mana throughout the fight healing you because you glyphed?' My answer to that is 'my healers have more mana because I'm healing myself for ~200K each time so they don't have to use big expensive heals.' Using Horridon for the example again, I set up a SD while he's in his Double Swipe animation, and I hit FR right after the Triple Puncture. At worst, my healer only has to cover the melee swing he does right efter it. At best, I dodge the melee and I don't need any healing at all.

    While it could be argued that the healer can use a less expensive heal, or one instead of two if I had a glyphed FR up, a healer that can cancel their cast because they can see that I don't need healing at all spends no mana. Going glyphed means that I _have_ to be healed constantly -- which is a complaint the healers have had about the raid's other tanks. "If we stop healing them for an instant, they go down."

    -T.
    Last edited by Tielyn; 06-04-2013 at 01:29 PM.

  16. #96
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    Essentially, the idea behind a glyphed Frenzied Regen is that it is always relevant. With non-glyphed, you get to a point where you don't need healing, but you're out of SD charges and going to cap rage in a few seconds. It's pretty much guaranteed that you'll get a benefit out of it, as you'll definitely take a heal in the next few seconds, whereas with unglyphed you have to waste rage by waiting until the next big hit or your next SD charge comes up. Instead, you just have something you can slam the moment you hit 90 rage.


    That being said, I did some testing this week and I don't like the glyph at all. While it is nice to always have a rage dump, if you're often at a point where you can't throw out a FR and have it at least be somewhat effective, you're either in farm content or your healers are putting way too much mana into you, neither of which is a problem you should be attempting to solve with your own spec. I believe my initial problem with unglyphed FR stemmed from the fact that our guild is trying to gear up some people to move into progression, and thus too much of my tanking experience recently is coming from content I outgear.

    There's also a lot to be said for being able to take care of yourself when healers need to focus the raid or move out of mechanics, and the 2pc tier bonus is actually pretty amazing in practice.

  17. #97
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    Figured I'd say a word or two about the upcoming patch, since it's been awhile since there's been any traffic here. Ghostcrawler's latest DevCooler post has this to say about bears:

    Bear Form now increases Stamina contribution from cloth and leather items by 40% (up from 20%).

    We buffed Guardian spec Stamina outright because we felt the spec needed it. Druids have less reliable damage reduction, which isn’t a problem itself, so long as they have the health pool to compensate for it.
    I remember being unhappy when they took us down from 25%(BC levels) to 10% in Cata, and then bumped us back up to 20% for MoP, but when you first hit 90, it's a real pain to get your stam up without stam stacking, and stam stacking means you're not doing your optimum rotation/rage generation reforges and gemming.

    I for one am happy for this change, because it means I can take alllll of the stam gems out of my gear for progression.

    The other thing that's going to have an effect is the change to Dream of Cenarius -- 10% bonus to Mangle is pretty darned profound, and having a semi-reliable auto Healing Touch that scales based on your AP(!) means that you're going to be able to keep yourself up better than a Paladin using WoG. There is no way that's going to last.

    Ysera's Gift, which replaces Nature's Swiftness in the talent tree, looks interesting, but since I haven't hopped over to the PTR yet to see it live, it might be the new 'it' thing until they nerf it. 1% health every second (well, technically 5% every 5 seconds) as a passive? It's like a second Leader of the Pack.... and doesn't replace it. And +heal %s do affect it. Which means glyphed Frenzied Regen might be viable with it. Maybe. But I do know I'm going to miss NS+HT+DoC heal bombing people, for sure. It's saved a near-wipe many a time... including as recently as last week when I was the last man standing on Jin'rokh, Horridon, Megaera, and Ji-kun all in the same week. (We were training new healers and new DPS and an offtank.)

    I'm also wondering if going the other way and stam stacking to heck to get the synergy bonus up for Frenzied Regen/Vengeance/Tooth and Claw might be not wholly unreasonable. Powers only know that the LFR bears I see do that enough... 1 million health bear, anyone?

    -Tielyn

  18. #98
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    They're nerfing its from 1.8% to 1.5% of un mitigated damage, maybe in 25HC you'll hit a cap but in 10 mans or LFR its not gonna happen so stacking stam for more vengeance isn't going to happen unless you are getting hit retardedly hard, and unless you're not getting hit very hard at all FR and TnC should be using their AP scaling rather than their stam scaling.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #99
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    Quick update for 5.4 (I'm at work still) from the patch notes, unverified:
    * We got a bonus stam buff. (+20% extra, total of 40%). I'm guessing we're going to need it. :P
    * If you were using Nature's Swiftness as a talent, it's gone now, but its instant heal effects got moved into Dream of Cenarius, and instead of being on a 1 minute cooldown, it triggers 40% of the time off of Mangles, and uses your AP instead of your Spellpower. On paper, this looks like a huge buff when you use it during high Vengeance periods.
    * Soul of the Forest now no longer gives a flat Rage increase of 3 to just Mangle, but adds 30% per Mangle hit, including on the crit (Primal Fury), so that's going to be 6.5 on Mangle hits without a crit (+1.5), but a total of 26 when you crit (+6), and if you have the 4 piece T16, the bonus Rage gen stacks. But really, if you're up at 510 or better gear, you shouldn't be having Rage generation issues at all, right? Stick with Incarnation for now.

    Capacitance proc rate has been nerfed if you used the DPS metagem. I'll let you know by how much when I do a 1:1 comparison after this week's raids.
    * Nature's Vigil got a slight buff (12%, up from 10%, but remember that it got nerfed down from 15% last patch). Still, DoC seems like the best choice now, because...
    * Dream of Cenarius -- as stated above, now has the Nature's Swiftness ability folded into it, _and_ increases Mangle crit chance by 10%. On paper, it's a bona fide survival/damage buff to this otherwise mediocre talent, since it was only worth it if you paired it up with Nature's Swiftness. I'll try and get some hard numbers tonight.


    More later this week.

    -Tielyn

  20. #100
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    proc chance on the DPS metagem is down 40%
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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