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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #721
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    So I decided to mess around with my Prot Warrior and Icy Veins is saying that if you don't go avoidance, and I hate avoidance, to go full Crit for rage generation. So Prot Warriors like Crit these days?

  2. #722
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    Here are a few sims of myself shifting my stats out of parry (i run a full parry setup as standard)

    normal me: 339481 dps, 57181 dtps, 7547.5 TMI, 12.5 RPS, SBuptime 65.06%
    10K Crit from parry: 340270 dps, 69603 dtps, 28391.9 TMI 12.1 RPS, SBuptime 61.95%
    10K Mastery from parry:
    297999 dps, 58934 dtps, 5346.9 TMI 12.2 RPS, SBuptime 66.11%

    Results show that their is a 0.3% dps increase if one prefers Crit over parry, but this also leads to a fourfold increase in TMI. Putting the 10k form mastery into parry drops the DPS by 12%, but drops the TMI by almost a third

    The RPS results clearly show that any build will have sufficent rage to attain maximum shield block uptime, and have nigh equal amounts amounts of excess rage to burn, which directly contradicts Icy-Veins's stament that stacking Mastery "will cause you to struggle to maintain high shile block uptimes" The results would indicate that if the mastery build struggles for shoield block uptime the crit build would struggle slightly more and the parry build would struggle slightly less. In fact if directly look at the Sb uptimes we can see that the Mastery build manages to have the highest uptime

    I would suggest this is probably becuase Mastery has the lest spikes and they tend to be smaller in magnitude, and thus do not trigger the "ohshiti'mgonnaDIE!!" Sbar response which is much more disruptive to using SBlock on CD than 0.1RPS difference, which eqautes to 1 more Sbar every 10 minutes.

    My own expierience in 5.0 in 463 blues when SS was 15 rage and Rev 10, is that attaining maximum Sblock uptime is possible with just capping hit and exp, if you never press Sbar.
    Crit's not bad exactly, but almost everything is better unless you completely ignore survivabilty for the sake of DPS
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #723
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    The Icy Veins warrior guide is shit.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  4. #724
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    Thanks, gonna go Mastery

  5. #725
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    Teng is definitely right, but I can tell you from personal experience that dps seems to matter on heroic raiding. We are often <20 seconds left on the berserk or even tighter than that. The extra 12% dps from gearing avoidance can really turn out to be the difference. I've tried mastery as well, and it's hard for me to tell much difference even though I know that it's smoother intake. If you have really good damage dealers or sub-par healers gear mastery.
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 01-27-2014 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #726
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    Unless you're doing 10man with more Resto Shaman and Holy Paladin healers than Monks & Disc Priests, the extra DPS will be worth it
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  7. #727
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    The thing is to gear for the fight you're progressing on, if tank death is a non-thing, the DPS boost is worth taking. If tank death is a thing, go full survivability.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #728
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    OK, so those who've been following my Twitter feed may have noticed that I'm less that thrilled at the changes to Charge and Warbringer and I kinda want to clarify why I'm so negative about the change.

    In WotLk a mandatory, deep Prot Talent Warbringer meant that all of charges broke roots, that was cut back to just Intervene, and then in Mop they flip-flopped about whether Intervene could break roots baseline or if we needed a talent. at present we have no means to break roots outside of the talents. We also have less charges over a given time frame than we had back in Wrath. Without glyphs we could get 6 charges a minute, because Charge had a 15s CD as opposed to the 20s CD it has now and because unlike how double time recharges Intercept was on its own 30s CD (so we could double charge every 30 seconds). Compare that to how it is presently; For absolute maximum mobility, Juggernaut lets us get 5 charges a minute, Double time lets us get 4 charges a minute, but does let us double charge every 40 seconds. And now they're removing the stun if we take either of those Talents.

    Concussion Blow. Back in wrath this dealt 100% AP as damage and stunned for 5 seconds. they did nerf its damage by 50% halfway through Wrath. Its gone now. But we do get Stormbolt instead which deals 500% weapon damage if it doesn't stun and is ranged! however, the stun is only 4 seconds long and deals no where near the damage CB would have, even if we don't stun the target, it just doesn't deal enough damage. CB was a prot warriors single hardest hitting ability. Stormbolt isn't because it's based of Weapon Damage and not AP like CB was, and we use a single 1-hander and don't have an off-hand or any passives to boost our low Weapon damage.

    Shockwave. I really don't understand why blizzard couldn't see that by giving Arms all of Prot's control Toolbox Arms would be OP in PVP, so to avoid that they increased the CD by 100% if we don't hit 3+ targets. This was one of our Trucks, this was part of our single target rotation, it hit harder than Shield Slam. Sure we got Bladestorm and Dragon Roar, but Bladestorm is awful, once again because we only use a 1-hander, its lower DPS than shockwave (even if shockwave has the 40s CD) which means Bladestorm is just a rootbreaker for Prot. Arms and Fury got a buff to lower the CD, but with Prot they lowered the CD and the weapon damage, lowering it's DPS. How many roots are there in SoO

    Avatar. At the start of Mop this increased our Rage gen as well as our damage and breaking an making us immune to movement impairing affects, that was changed, once again because Arms was OP the first season of MoP, to just being a a root breaker rather than a root immunity it's duration was increased but the extra rage bit was gone. That being the most important bits as far as prot was concerned.

    So, in summation, in 3.0 we had worst case each minute had six 1.5s s, two 5s and three 4s stuns, 6 root breakers. Best case scenario in 5.4.7; three 1.5s s, two 3s and three 4s stuns, 3 root breakers.

    And the thing that really gets me as a Prot Warrior, is this isn't because we're massively OP in PVP, this is because Arms is. My problem isn't that Arms shouldn't be nerfed. If and when a spec is OP that spec should be nerfed. but you shouldn't nerf Prot because Arms is OP, I get you don't want Tanks in PVP, that's cool, why not just not let people enter PVP instances in tank specs? similar to how we can't enter them when we're dead? Please Stop nerfing Prot PVE because of Arms PVP. I get that Blizz is fine with this "minor impact", but it's the latests in a long list of minor Impacts. Blizz this is the equivalent of leaving the toilet set up, eventually we're gonna divorce you, either that or brain you with a blender. Please, just stop doing it, I want us to grow old together.

    And what's salt in the wound is that no other spec has lost so much mobility, most have gained, Paladin's PoJ got a massive buff in MoP, and it's alternatives, SoL an LAotL ,aren't shabby at all. Add on to that Clemency two hand of freedom and two had of protection. DK's got Death's Advance and a second, AoE, Deathgrip or an AoE stun. Locks got their Gateway and the ability to cast on the move and a brand new root breaker. As did hunters. Shadowstep isn't confined to just sub rogues. Monks are ridiculous up to three rolls. Three, a teleport, and even FSK And what do Prot warriors get? Heroic Leap, which doesn't even path properly unless the ground is perfectly flat.

    And at this point I'm sure someone will have be thinking, ah but what about glyphs of Long Charge, Death from Above, and Enraged speed? and you'd be right if it wasn't for the fact that we have 3 glyphs that are nigh mandatory whilst tanking, I'd love to be able to pick up Enraged Speed, but if I swap it for Unending rage I'm noticeably squishier due to delayed shield blocks, if i swap it for either Hold the Line or Heavy repercussions i lose significant DPS, and that matters in today's tanking environment, it mattered back in Ulduar when warrior tanks got sat for DKs due to DPS. Blizzard said they didn't want to have straight up DPS increasing Glyphs when they ditched Prime Glyphs, but here's two of them in prot. And that's such a shame, Prot has some really great glyphs, I'd love to take the dispel Glyph, I miss that, I really do to the extent that I'd axe Mass Spell Reflect entirely and put Shield Slam dispelling in it's place on that talent row.


    Tl;DR; Stop nerfing Prot PVE becuase of Arms PVP, stop decaying our mobility: stop making stupid glyphs
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 02-03-2014 at 05:06 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #729
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    They're reverting the Charge/Warbringer things .... and making Disrupting Shout useless, as it now basicly replaces Pummel once in a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  10. #730
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    Yeah i saw that though i'm happy they're not touching Charge for the time being, it's still a case of "Arms is annoying in PVP; Nerf all warriors".

    EDIT: Teng post rant <2hrs later change reverted.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 02-04-2014 at 04:42 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #731
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    They need to stop with the excuses and make the abilities do separate things when in BG or arena zones. We've been getting the bat for PvP "balance" for far too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  12. #732
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    What I really want From 6.0 would be;

    Tier 1: Rework Warbringer. Or rather Revert it so that our charges Break movement impairing effects, this would actually make me look at the talents and really think which one i should choose. For a given fight.

    Tier 2: Think this tier is fine

    TIer 3: I think for the most part this tier is fine too. i'm not sure how badly the DS nerf will affect it bbut at present i almost always take that talent over the other two so hopefully it will even that out a little. DS should replace Pummel essentially every minute your pummel is AOE, and PH should replace Hamstring.

    Tier 4: I really don't like this tier, Dragon roar I feel they should cut the damage and give back the 8yd knock back. Shockwave it would be nice if they made it so that if it only hit 1 or 2 player character the CD is doubled, otherwise its a 20s CD. I'd Invert Stormbolt in place of Bladestorm

    Tier 5: I'd remove Mass Spell Reflect. I'd replace it what's now Glyph of Shield Slam, Thats to say a talent that cuases SHield Slam and CS (for Arms/Fury) to dispel. Safeguard and Vigialnce i'd leave as is (though remove the root breaker from Safeguard)

    Tier 6:Avatar remove the movement impairing, add the extra rage gen back, Bloodbath i'd leave as is, Bladestorm takes the place of Storm bolt,
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 02-04-2014 at 02:20 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #733
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    Agree with most of that, except...

    Imho Warbringer gives you a slow, Double Time lets you (control) Charge more, so Juggernaut should be just breaking roots.
    Dragon Roar I feel (from a PvE PoV) that it should just knock down longer rather than knockback.
    If anything, it makes more sense to me if Shockwave did a knockback than DR. I do agree on Stormbolt in that tier, as it makes it all about stun/knockdown there, while making tier 6 about control (Avator to break roots, Bloodbath to slow, Bladestorm to be immune to CC but can't charge).

    Tier 7:
    I know they are just preliminary WoD talents, but thought I'ld throw my thoughts/pre-emptive rant on those out as well:
    Blade Barrier vs Ravager is interesting (in a good way). As essentially Ravager is 75% of it's DPS but it's burst and a ranged add pickup like Glyph of Consecrate, so I feel it's a great trade-off for add fights.
    Extreme Measures for DPS feels kind of a high cost, 10-15% at most would be more in line of what is essentially the cost of an Execute. To put in PvP terms: If it costs you as much health as you can take from the other guy, what's the benefit?
    If Gladiator Stance was separate, I would actually like it (really nice for offtanking, can actually do some damage with the Rage you get), if they do want to replace Def Stance, I would prefer the crit block -> SS crit chance and maybe increase the passive Rage generation so that it's still viable for actual tanking rather than a talent you only ever take to do your dailies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  14. #734
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    Gladiator Stance makes more sense as a glyph, imo.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  15. #735
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    I agree with both points, Gladiator stance , as is works better as a glyph, kinda the reverse of of Demon hunting is for locks. However if Gladiator stance was a seperate stance, or Replaces Battle and/or Berzerker stance, it might be very interesting, since i can't recall a time when i swapped to zerker for tanking, and i only swapped to battle when threat was an issue.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #736
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    Doesn't it currently replace d-stance?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #737
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    Indeed. I'd just like it to replace the other stances thus making stance dancing Meaningful just seems better than having 3 dps stances.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  18. #738
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    Wait, you have more than one stance in Prot?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  19. #739
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    So, there's been a few changes if we look at the most recent press releases.

    Demo-banner, Disarm, Cleave, Sunder Armor gone
    Recklessness/Skull Banner merged
    Demo banner missing?
    Shattering Throw gone?

    Talent changes
    MSR replaces SR
    Blade Barrier: Replaced by Anger Management: Rage spent Decreases CDs affected by readiness
    Bladestorm/Stormbolt inverted. I called this!
    Ravager: has a cast time
    Masochism: Replaced by Ignite weapon: replaces HS, deals 100% WD, white swings deal fire damage for the next 10s

    Most of these i have no problem with (and quite a few get me really excited). However the final tier talents are looking really crap. if I'm going to tank I'm not taking Gladiator Stance, so that leaves me with Ravager or Anger Management. Ravager has a Cast Time, so if I'm ever getting melee'd i don't really want to use it. I'm a tank; I'm almost always getting melee'd. they need ot add in a "you can still dodge/block/parry whilst casting this ability like Chi Bursthas. As for Anger Management, if Readiness affects the same CDs as Vial of Living Corruption, I'm really not impressed. That's Shield Wall, last Stand, Demo shout, Mocking banner, Recklessness and Heroic leap. I don't use Heroic Leap, Mocking Banner, or Last Stand on CD. Generally Bosses taunt swap every 30 seconds or every minute. this means that in order to see a real improvement in usefulness we need to dramatically lower the CDs of abilities like demo shout so that we can use them twice in the window in which we hold aggro. If you have the boss for 30 seconds then does it matter if Demo comes back off CD every 60 or 50 seconds? not really I need to get it down to sub 30s CDs. like wise with shield wall you'll generally be using it to counter big boss abilities like Nazgrim's execute which you also tend to get once every 30s.

    Readiness as an Idea for DPS classes works great because their major CDs tend to things they use on CD, Tanks don't tend to use their tanking CDs on CD, we generally won't stack them. We either chain them, in which case we will want some very specific Readiness points and missing these will be meh or we'll use the to counter boss mechanics, in which case boss mechanic timing has to tuned specifically for us. Really for a tank to make good use of Readiness it needs to affect abilities that are off the GCD and used virtually on CD, the only one I can think of is shield Block, or maybe the ICD on Enrage. but neither of those are affected by Vial and so I doubt they'll be affected by readiness.

    My appraisal of the prot lvl 100 talents as they are now
    as a tank;
    a) eh
    b) er
    c) not even an option

    as DPS;
    a) not an option
    b) not an option
    c) Mandatory.

    Come on Blizz give us some options here. Mandatory or Meaningless talent choices are, we are led to believe, why you scrapped the old talent trees.if we want a sword and Board DPS spec do it with a glyph like locks, or a spec like druids, but if you're going to make it a talent choice make the two alternatives for those of us who still tank set the world of fire.

    Also leave Charge alone.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  20. #740
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    Wait, aren't they replacing Gladiator Stance with the Ignite Weapon as well? That would mean DPS increase vs the Readiness reduction. And considering we can easily spend 60+ Rage every 9 seconds, that means you can basicly cut off >30% off of any of those CDs, depending on how much RPS you have. (napkin math)

    It'll depends on how they are going to change the cooldowns though, but atleast it's actually a form of a defensive increase!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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