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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #661
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    Yeah. I've seen this too. No one has given me a good explanation other than "omg the deeps" but I bet a properly played avoidance spec would do better.Crit builds are for over gearing LFR and dicking around, imo.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  2. #662
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    Here are a few sims of myself shifting my stats out of parry (i run a full parry setup as standard)

    normal me: 339481 dps, 57181 dtps, 7547.5 TMI, 12.5 RPS, SBuptime 65.06%
    10K Crit from parry: 340270 dps, 69603 dtps, 28391.9 TMI 12.1 RPS, SBuptime 61.95%
    10K Mastery from parry:
    297999 dps, 58934 dtps, 5346.9 TMI 12.2 RPS, SBuptime 66.11%

    Results show that their is a 0.3% dps increase if one prefers Crit over parry, but this also leads to a fourfold increase in TMI. Putting the 10k form mastery into parry drops the DPS by 12%, but drops the TMI by almost a third

    The RPS results clearly show that any build will have sufficent rage to attain maximum shield block uptime, and have nigh equal amounts amounts of excess rage to burn, which directly contradicts Icy-Veins's stament that stacking Mastery "will cause you to struggle to maintain high shile block uptimes" The results would indicate that if the mastery build struggles for shoield block uptime the crit build would struggle slightly more and the parry build would struggle slightly less. In fact if directly look at the Sb uptimes we can see that the Mastery build manages to have the highest uptime

    I would suggest this is probably becuase Mastery has the lest spikes and they tend to be smaller in magnitude, and thus do not trigger the "ohshiti'mgonnaDIE!!" Sbar response which is much more disruptive to using SBlock on CD than 0.1RPS difference, which eqautes to 1 more Sbar every 10 minutes.

    My own expierience in 5.0 in 463 blues when SS was 15 rage and Rev 10, is that attaining maximum Sblock uptime is possible with just capping hit and exp, if you never press Sbar.

    EDIT: and just for fun here's me if i just straight up lose 10k parry rating and tell it to never use Sbar, just use SBlock on CD and never worry about if i cap rage

    Losing 10k parry: 300158 dps, 116868 dtps, 1908.3k TMI, 7.1 RPS, SBuptime 68.22%

    That's a perfectly respectable SB uptime to me.

    To tag onto Agg's comment, Crit builds are when you need to tank and your Arms/Fury gear is a higher Ilvl than your prot gear.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-22-2013 at 07:20 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #663
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    Icy Veins: Really I've never found their guides particularly appealing, or accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  4. #664
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    Since I almost always run Bladestorm as a tank it irks me a little that everyone seems to recommend against it. So let me try to sing its praises and see what happens. First things first tho. I checked the first post and it says it does 240% weapon dmg. This was reduced to 160% in 5.4 so needs updating.

    Again, I'm not sure why this change didn't see many comments. I mean, it's a pretty obvious nerf. Some might say that reducing the cooldown from 1.5 min to 1 min and reducing dmg from 240% to 160% is not a nerf, but if you use it as a dps cooldown you would stack it with other dps cooldowns and then it is a nerf. For the commonly held worst dps talent in a dps tier to get a nerf and have it be not commented on just doesn't sit right with me. Anyway.

    Bladestorm on a tank is not a dps cooldown. It's a tool used when you are tanking multiple mobs. It is a tool that fills a pretty glaring gap in the warriors toolset. We all know warriors have pretty good ae threat/dmg simple due to how thunderclap works, but thunderclap still has a six second cooldown. Many times when you need to pick up adds you time your thunderclaps so that you can pick up the adds you need to. But there are times when the adds are not moving in a nice predictable manner and you need to apply fresh ae threat in between two thunderclaps, maybe more than once. This is where bladestorm comes in. Thunderclap, bladestorm, thunderclap is a long period of picking up add aggro during which you are free to move.

    My tanking partner is a paladin, and when we do a boss fight where one of the tanks needs to pick up adds that is always my job. I'm the tank who can reliably pick up adds. Sure, I time my thunderclaps relatively well, but if not for bladestorm this would not be the case.

    Anyway, if you are the tank in your tank partnership who cannot pick up adds, try bladestorm.

    (And maybe update guide to suggest that the reason to pick bladestorm is that it fills a gap in your toolset if you need to pick up adds that are dynamically joining a fight)

  5. #665
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    Dragon roar and Shockwave are just as good for multiple add pick up, shockwave especially since you can use it three times as often as Bladestorm and neither alternative require us to time our active mitigation or lock us out of most of our abilites. I've not found revenge Cleave spam particularly weak for AoE since 3.2. What i particularly like about Bladetorm is its slow immunity, which is so good for the add tank on Garrosh.


    The change wasn't a nerf per say, what happened was that it was 240% on a 90s CD, they then dropped the CD and weapon damage by 33%
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-24-2013 at 07:14 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krennick View Post
    For the commonly held worst dps talent in a dps tier to get a nerf and have it be not commented on just doesn't sit right with me. Anyway.
    It's not commented on because no one uses it for a reason ... let's talk about those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krennick View Post
    Many times when you need to pick up adds you time your thunderclaps so that you can pick up the adds you need to. But there are times when the adds are not moving in a nice predictable manner and you need to apply fresh ae threat in between two thunderclaps, maybe more than once. This is where bladestorm comes in.
    This is where heroic leap, revenge, shockwave, charge/intervene, tab+devastate, cleave, mocking banner come in

    Quote Originally Posted by Krennick View Post
    My tanking partner is a paladin, and when we do a boss fight where one of the tanks needs to pick up adds that is always my job. I'm the tank who can reliably pick up adds.
    This speaks more to your partners skill level than your choice in talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krennick View Post
    but if not for bladestorm this would not be the case.
    This is where heroic leap, revenge, charge/intervene, shockwave, tab+devastate, cleave, mocking banner come in


    Outside of possibly using it on phase 1 of Garrosh, which only is up every other pack ... and so you'll only use it maybe 2x in that phase...against a hamstring that can just as easily be dealt with via heroic leap / charge / intervene (which are available for every set of adds), I can't see a good reason to ever use bladestorm in PVE.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubtohd View Post
    I can't see a good reason to ever use bladestorm in PVE.
    If you're in a situation where Death is not eminent or even a distant concern and therefor having your active mitigation timed isn't as important, it does make for a nice aoe cd, even as protection it can do for a decent burst, especially if coupled with a Bloodbath. It is quite simply a tool in the toolbox. When I've done Galakras on my warrior and I'm not on tower team I found it to be rather useful. I know a lot of people would vouch for Shockwave all day every day on that fight, but it didn't seem an indispensable tool VS meter padding.

  8. #668
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    Agreed it's a tool...but if you're looking to pad meters, Dragon Roar provides more dps. If you're looking to AoE control/threat, Shockwave provides 3x more uptime.

    In nearly every possible scenario, Bladestorm lags behind the other 2 choices in that tier. Which is why I can't see a good reason to use it.

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubtohd View Post
    It's not commented on because no one uses it for a reason ... let's talk about those.



    This is where heroic leap, revenge, shockwave, charge/intervene, tab+devastate, cleave, mocking banner come in



    This speaks more to your partners skill level than your choice in talents.



    This is where heroic leap, revenge, charge/intervene, shockwave, tab+devastate, cleave, mocking banner come in


    Outside of possibly using it on phase 1 of Garrosh, which only is up every other pack ... and so you'll only use it maybe 2x in that phase...against a hamstring that can just as easily be dealt with via heroic leap / charge / intervene (which are available for every set of adds), I can't see a good reason to ever use bladestorm in PVE.
    I like the cut of your jib, can we be friends? Seriously, I agree 100% with all of this.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #670
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    I'm trying to come up with some sims where Bladestorm beats the other two talents for DPS, and i can't really find a place, even with a fully upgraded heroic warforged weapon and 50k Vengeance (that's about LFR, right?) Shockwave if slightly better DPS, and Dragon Roar is a fucktonne better DPS, and the gaps get bigger as you add more vengeance or have a lower ilevel weapon. Interesting bug with SimC, its not triggering Shockwave CD reduction when hitting 3+ targets; even on 2 targets Bladestorm comes last for DPS.

    EDIT: updated the section in question

    Even with 1 target, a warforge heroic double upgraded weapon, as Prot DPS with no vengeace it's still behind shockwave, Not by much but certainly behind. Really you're limited to scenarios where mobs have a damge reductions against AoE affects and hope Bladestorm isn't flagged an an AoE attack because each attack is a single target attack, and those don't come up very often.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-26-2013 at 12:39 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #671
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    We are on garrosh 25man and the avoidance build has been pretty useful. At a certain point during the first phase both tanks go squish and there's nothing we can do ab it. Like ive popped shield wall and still go squish. What is our issue here?

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    We are on garrosh 25man and the avoidance build has been pretty useful. At a certain point during the first phase both tanks go squish and there's nothing we can do ab it. Like ive popped shield wall and still go squish. What is our issue here?
    A few things:
    1) once shield block is down and you're relying on sbars you're going to run out of mitigation and start taking it to the face.

    2) always have a cooldown running when he does his warcry

    3) The actual reason for death is probably because the tank that's tanking Garrosh has so much Vengeance that he/she pulls all of the adds. All adds+hellscream+warcry = squish tank. My advice would be, if you as the offtank are also a prot war, to spec into vigilance and spam taunt adds off of the tank during the second warcry. You should be able to cooldown the 3rd and usually Garrosh is transitioning then and he stops beating on the tank. The first warcry barely goes off before the adds die (or should be).

    4) Remember the adds are stunnable too, Shockwave can be used as a defensive cooldown here.

    5) The damage is so ridiculous in phase 1 b/c garrosh hits so hard that our vengenace is ridiculous and our tclap/shockwave hits like a f*@!ing train. Imo, it's not really the avoidance build that's doing your DPS, it's Vengeance. I would STRONGLY recommend a mastery build for the main tank, the OT could probably stay avoidance but there's a lot of damage out in Phase 2&3, I'd really strongly advise a mastery/stam build. Teng says it's not an issue, but he'a also tanking in 10 man, the damage profiles are slightly different and even in 10 man with a mastery build my cloak procs a bit too often for me to be comfortable. Maybe it's our healer makeup that isn't optimal for tank healing but I would advise against an avoidance build on garrosh unless you and your healers are total ballers.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #673
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    as a prot warrior in a 25 man guild, i have went to geming pure dodge and parry or dodge stam < if sockets blue> and still expertise 15% and hit 7.5% and mastery reforge, while using two stam trinkets < the aoe reduction one from protectors and the skill cooldown one from malk>

    i have a 658 ilvl around 53% mastery unbuffed
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dydar/advanced

    when i killed garrosh 25 man normal i did 306k dps < second in dps logs>
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2249&e=2873

    when ive done ten man its normally 200k ish < we been working heroics sometimes we dont clear garrosh on 25 man so we take people who havent been in and do on a weekend> i just got the sword im using this passed kill, so i was using heroic thunderforged axe from jin on all kills. <fully upgraded of course>

    im at 12.73% dodge 35.68% parry 24.77% block and 53.69% mastery unbuffed. i run river song weapon enchant.

    during phase one garrosh 25 man normal i peak at 900kish dps with avatar shockwave and crit banner , and i end up tanking garrosh and 80% of the adds, my offtank pulls adds in and holds one off me while i tank the rest.

    now granted my gear is decent if not good, but the fact that im doing my job alright and still able to do huge dmg is fun to me, ive never claimed to be great tank. but i work my healers hard on a fight like garrosh and try to push as much dmg as i can while trying not to allow myself to die lol


    also another case and point sigecrafter fight, my add that i kill i solo, no one has to assist me unless they are padding meters

    tank dmg can matter on many fights, also can make things easier, if the tank dmg is high and dps over top for the fight you can bring extra healer if a fight calls for it, and so on. don't get me wrong I'd be ok just being a beef wall, but with how they changed it, no longer stance dance and so on, it got boring. now i can spam buttons when they light up like a dps! lol

    I honestly am enjoying the changes, actually makes dodge and parry fun instead of meh.


    only thing i cant seem to find anywhere is if 4 pc is worth a crap or not. i personally love 2 pc, and may only use 2 pc, as i am now. but im curious on the numbers of rage gain for 4 pc if anyone has the math or a simple it is great or sucks.

  14. #674
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    If you're going avoidance you should really lean heavily on parry b/c of http://www.wowhead.com/item=43424 that's part of the reason damage can get so high. Only put the dodge/parry gems in yellow slots with a good socket bonus.

    Also: when tanking all the adds, you're dodging/parrying so much that even if you're not DPS spec, you can basically spam HtL revenges. With that many adds the only real benefit is that you're getting about 10% more crit with an Avoidance heavy set than a stam mastery/set. With close to 100% mastery, there really hasn't been a HUGE difference in rage gen for me.

    I'm 549 in my tank gear, it seems the DPS difference between avoidance and mastery is about 12%, and I'm way easier to heal.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  15. #675
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    Yeah, It's always at the same spot in the fight, like his 3rd warcry or something like that. I think it might be that one set of adds get's buffed more than once at that point and that combined with the frequency and sheer number of adds being really high at that point causes us to go squish. Consider this, we even had 3 tanks give it a shot and we STILL went squish at the same point. What could be the cause of this? It has to be his warcry buff don't you think? Edit: On an unrelated note, Agg you already are going to have a ton more parry from strength than you do dodge so getting a little better mitigation from balancing parry/dodge shouldn't be a bad deal.

  16. #676
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    Yeah, you're kinda meant to kill each wave of adds with an ironstar, unless you are specifically going for the STRIKE! achievement (which is presently bugged so you get anyway with the Garrosh kill), you shouldn't really have more than 7 adds up at any one time. Or perhaps both tanks are standing in the path of the ironstar.

    If you can get a log of the Garrosh attempts we could analyse what's killing the tank properly.

    Parry dodge Balancing isn't really worth doing unless your going for a survivability build balance, and for the most part the difference is miniscule, and if you've chosen to go the DPS route you've chosen against a survivability build anyway.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #677
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    A much simpler solution for Garrosh phase 1 is to tank switch every time he does a war cry. Maybe this isn't necessary in 10 man but in 25 man I think it's not only safer but also a big dps increase as both tanks get a share in the vengeance. We went from having a bit of difficulty keeping up with the adds to having tanks basically melting them (with DPS cleaving). No need for any ironstar messing around (and in 25 man, ironstar does not do all that much to the adds).

    So for example: I pull the boss, I get the initial chunk of vengeance. Tank 2 helps pickup the initial adds but as soon as I do my AOE they all drift to me thanks to the vengeance. Tank 2 taunts Garrosh just before the war cry comes. Rinse and repeat.

    You might also want to look at your positioning strategy. Most of the guides will have a ranged pack and a melee pack... but it's really not necessary for the whole ranged pack to be at ranged (7 people need to be outside melee range to bait the desecrated weapon), and it will make the tanks life a lot easier if your healers are in melee range with the boss (acting as magnets). You can see this strategy working very clearly in the Method 25hc kill vid. If you match that positioning strategy, your tanks, melee and some of your healers/dps never need to move in phase 1, which is a big dps increase.
    Last edited by swelt; 10-29-2013 at 05:19 AM.

  18. #678
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    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-42...luhwby/deaths/ This is the death's overview. Not sure if this helps, says on this attempt that I took a 250k hit from the Kok'ron Reaper, ouchie Here is the report of every single one of my death's that night. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-42...y/details/110/

  19. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    Edit: On an unrelated note, Agg you already are going to have a ton more parry from strength than you do dodge so getting a little better mitigation from balancing parry/dodge shouldn't be a bad deal.
    You don't go with the avoidance build to take damage better, otherwise you'd go mastery. You go avoidance to do more DPS, and parrying is more DPS than dodging, so.... you should really go all in on parry. The difference in avoidance is very small, on the order of a few percent, and the crit difference is even smaller.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  20. #680
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    There shouldn't be a crit difference unless balancing avoidance rating somehow changes the total avoidance rating you have.

    Bryjoered, what percentage of the fight to you typically have aggro? SHield block uptime looks a little low, as does your hitcap. Lookin strictly at the death's overview, I can see a few events where you put shield block up and then take a bunch of hits before it fades, not blocks, actually hits, that tells me either your shield breaks mid fight quite often, or more likely you're letting mobs attack you from behind, which is a great way to make sure you go splat. Make sure nothing is attacking you rear quarter. Ever.

    For a 25 man, tank DPS isn't quite so imperative as it is in 10 mans and stuff does just hit harder so consider a Mastery or Stam/Mastery build. The guide's pretty clear on this, if you're dying to chains of multiple melee hits you need more mastery.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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