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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #641
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    Yep my trinkets are the on-use soul barrier(which blows) and the on-use The Fallen Protector's trinket, which has the AOE damage reduction, modeling either of them wouldn't make much difference, they basically are in my inventory for the massive stamina they provide ya know?

    K, I remodeled it annnnnnd you're right (damnit!) Stam>Hit/Exp>Mastery>Crit>Parry/Dodge
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 10-02-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  2. #642
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    I'd love to be wrong, but i can't fault the maths.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #643
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    I've still never understood avoidance as a "fun" build. Or DPS tank builds as "fun". I'm a tank, if I wanted to DPS I would stay DPS. I want to be able to take a lot of damage and be easily healed. Wasn't that supposed to be the whole point of active mitigation too?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #644
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    I like procs, i like procy builds, its not the numbers its the very unpredictable "rotation", playing whackamole.

    but yeah active mitigation isn't really a thing anymore.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I've still never understood avoidance as a "fun" build. Or DPS tank builds as "fun". I'm a tank, if I wanted to DPS I would stay DPS. I want to be able to take a lot of damage and be easily healed. Wasn't that supposed to be the whole point of active mitigation too?
    I don't like it either, but with my co-tank doing 200k (seriously how overpowered are monks) I just feel like I should at least attempt to keep up.

  6. #646
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    Great read! First week back after 2 years off and this post answers a lot of questions.

  7. #647
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    Ok this is really weird, I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I put in a heroic geared protection warrior ~ilvi570 and the stat priority was really weird. Yes, I made sure the sim was casting shield block. Stam and Mastery fell off a cliff at some point essentially. The guy has over a million buffed HP and is like 5% b4 the mastery crit block cap. I'm not a sim expert, but I think that the verdict could still be out on this thing. Like is there a certain point where stamina and mastery no longer smooth damage as well as parry/dodge? We are fairly certain that mastery would plummet in value after reaching 100% crit block, but maybe it plummets b4 then even?

    It would be a big help if you could sim a heroic geared protection warrior and see if you come up with the same results as me.

  8. #648
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    Yeah, it will start to even out as you approach 100% because of the way the probability string works.

    Okay so this is NOT a graph showing the math on this specifically... this is the run time series for probability of an event happening at least once X times in a row given Y probabilities of that happening:



    So... not exactly what we want, and I'm way too lazy to re-do this graph for what we do won't, so the values here are a little more "exaggerated" then they should be, but what this does show us is that as the probability of an event happening increases, the probability of that event not happening multiple times in a row significantly decrease on this sort of "s" shaped curve.

    So as you approach 90%+ Mastery, the odds of "not critically blocking" several times in a row, decrease a lot. Let's say you're at 95% mastery, 5% chance to block but not crit block. Over the course of a fight you're hit sec/1.5 times, so 5 minute fight, that's roughly 200 swings, ish. so 5% of 200 swing sis 10, so if you block EVERY attack, only 10 won't be critical blocks, and they probably won't be right in a row. You'll have a ton of damage smoothing and not very often, if ever, will you have multiple blocks in a row that AREN'T critical blocks.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  9. #649
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    Yeah, so I just did yet another simulation, this time with SimC's warrior tier16H sample profile, so essentially a warrior in BIS gear.

    Dodge ~= Parry ~= Crit ~= Mastery ~= Str ~= Sta ~= Hit ~= Exp

    This is the result that it gave me. This is where someone like Theck *cough Teng cough* could find out where the Mastery breakpoint exists or if there is a certain point where stamina falls off in value. I know Theck had a stamina breakpoints article, but the results where due to stamina gimping holy power regeneration. http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/14...a-breakpoints/ Anyways, it does seem that at a certain point adding more stamina and mastery is useless, or doesn't have nearly as big of a smoothing impact and it's actually better to stack dodge/parry even though they are spiky stats.

    Granted, with my toon I had just the opposite result, where stacking more stamina and mastery will be the way to go once we get into the early progression of heroics.
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 10-03-2013 at 09:54 AM.

  10. #650
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    Remember most of your stats interact with the other stats to affect their value. A high Mastery Build for example devalues hit and expertise becuase they generate so much rage form being hit they don't need to count on thier abilities to connect, a high avoidance build conversly devalues Mastery becuase as you avoid more attack you block less however becuase they rely very heavily on their abilities connecting to generate rage hit and expertise's value skyrockets, more stamina has the effect of suppressing the other stats until you reach the minimum amount of health so you don't get 1/2/3/X shot, then increasing and then finally supressing the value of all your other stats again as you aquire so much health you;re unkillable becuase your self heals have increased past the bosses DPS. and then their are Tier bonuses, these fuck around things aswell. T16 4pc sclaes inversley with your healthpool, the lower your HP the more rage you get out of the 4pc, the T16 2pc scales rather nicely with secondary stats, particularily mastery

    The thing is you can't just sim one dude in a supposed BiS set and conclude that his TMI weights are the way every prot warrior should aspire to gear.

    I'm assuming you're using the T16 25HC boss, against the T16hc Prot profile(lets call him Bob). Look at it's damage sources, it's mostly his spell nuke doing the damage, the boss's average melee is less than 80k thats less than 9% of Bob's health per hit, however when he dooes take it to the face its 450k, ouch . the spell nuke is ticking for >20% of our health every 2 seconds, much more dangerous. so why is stam not king here? becuase adding a thousand stam just isn't enough to really make a difference. why are hit/expertise so important because when the dot tick lines up with with a melee hit (an actual hit, not a block or avoid), Bob gets trucked for 900k, if he takes another melee hit or spell tick to the face he's dead, the boss is hitting so hard that damage smoothing isn't a concept, Bob's potentially dead in 1.5 seconds, he certainly dead in 2 seconds, So why hit and expertise? because every time bob manages to get an Sbar up hes just stopped a dot tick he's extended his time to live from 1.5-2 seconds to 4 seconds, at least doubling it.

    Take home lesson? interpretation is everything and stats aren't as important as playstyle when the shit hits the fan.


    EDIT: i really don't think the T25HC boss is very accurate with regards to most real T16 bosses.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-03-2013 at 10:43 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #651
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    I don't think there *IS* a specific break point for stamina/mastery. That is HEAVILY depending on far too many variables including your healers and individual boss fight mechanics.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #652
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    yeah, i'm not sure how to find the right logs, but I'm sure you could find a parse showing how hard a boss like garrosh hits on 25hc. Or another melee boss like general nazgrim. I mean I just want like a stat priority that I can stick to that guarantees that I'm a easy to heal as possible.
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 10-03-2013 at 11:20 AM.

  13. #653
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    garrosh hits for 450k in normal mode.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  14. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    garrosh hits for 450k in normal mode.
    10 or 25m?

  15. #655
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    the top ranked prot warrior on 10man is getting hit for ~290k
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #656
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    So what's the big fascination with crit all of a sudden? Sites like Icy-Veins have switched to recommending crit stacking, and it's not hard to find armory profiles of raiding prot warriors that have followed suit. I (think) I understand that crit provides some rage and extra via increasing Enrage and Ultimatum uptime (and, you know, more critical hits). But is this a fad because it raises DPS, or have I missed something?

  17. #657
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    Its not Crit, it's avoidance (which is turned into crit) which give us a non-neglible DPS increase at the cost of survivability. If you're stacking Crit rating as a Prot warrior you're kinda doing it wrong. Very Wrong. SoO normals are for the most part not very hard hitting, so with decent gear, decent healers, and not being a moron tank, the survivability loss can be negligible. Going in on the first night my healers couldn't feel the difference between a mastery stacker and an avoidance stacker, and are getting rather fucked off about the frequency I ask if they're feeling it yet, they still can't feel it. Your healers might, I know Agg has to box very clever if he runs avoidance, so whether you got avoidance or mastery is very subjective to the content you're doing, how good your gear is, how good a tank you are, and how competent your healers are

    In 10 mans the DPS increase from tanks can be very significant. Not so much on 25s. The general rule of thumb would be stack defensive stats until you're healers are comfortable and then stack avoidance.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  18. #658
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    I very much mean crit stacking: e.g. http://www.icy-veins.com/protection-...rity-reforging

    I'm aware of the avoidance vs control/smoothing build tradeoffs, and thus far in Pandaland I've gone with mastery/smoothing builds. I just was mystified as I'm seeing a lot of discussion of crit stacking outside of Tankspot, so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Thanks!

  19. #659
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    Full critical strike does not sim comparable to other spec for either DPS (loses to full avaoindance) or smoothness (loses to Mastery) I don't know what version of simcraft they're using but i strongly diagree with full crit.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  20. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I don't know what version of simcraft they're using but i strongly diagree with full crit.
    Good enough for me, thanks!

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