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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #621
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    I thought it was always assumed that regardless of going mastery/stam or avoidance that hit/exp > all
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  2. #622
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    Yep and the reason isn't for direct survivability gains, but for increased rage generation because you never miss revenge or shield slam. Isn't avoidance more of the same now? You get more revenge procs, therefore higher rage generation. I understand that the way shield block/barrier work they are nearly mutually exclusive, but I've used them both to great effect on fights like Durumu where the hard stare needed a barrier, but his melee needed a block. I mean is what I'm saying completely farfetched?

  3. #623
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    No, hit and expertise are directly for survivability gains because without them you can't guarantee maximum shield block up-time (with shield barrier fillers). Missing a shield slam when you need the rage to get up the next barrier or shield block is really bad.

    You are correct that you can interweave shield block and shield barrier, that's perfectly acceptable, that's not really my point. The point is that more rage generation beyond the initial amount needed for maximum shield block uptime does not directly correlate to "smoother damage intake" especially because of the nature of discrete damage intake and how shield barrier works. Shield barrier is INNATELY more spikey than shield block. More shield barriers doesn't necessarily decrease that, as I sort of inadvertently show in episode 4 of ARB.

    Clearly avoidance is a "viable" build, but you're not increasing your survivability. You're sacrificing survivability and damage smoothing for increased DPS. If that's what the fight needs, if you feel like your raid group needs more DPS and you're not dying, then go for it. But when Garrosh slams your face for 450k you may be going back to the stam/mastery build for that fight.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #624
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    Ok, so then the question is it still still ideal to favor stamina, because last tier it was, now with the million hp pools my natural thought would be that mastery would be more beneficial to stack especially to 100% critical block.

  5. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    Yep and the reason isn't for direct survivability gains, but for increased rage generation because you never miss revenge or shield slam. Isn't avoidance more of the same now? You get more revenge procs, therefore higher rage generation. I understand that the way shield block/barrier work they are nearly mutually exclusive, but I've used them both to great effect on fights like Durumu where the hard stare needed a barrier, but his melee needed a block. I mean is what I'm saying completely farfetched?
    THe problem is that as you get more Revenge procs, you use less GCDs on Devatate, which means less sword and board procs, which means less shield slams overall. Further more because of how the combat table works the more avoidance you have the less crit blocks you have, even if you don't drop mastery. SO the rage gains aren't quite as large as would otherwise be, i'm not saying that avoidance doesn't produce more rage, it does, but not that much more.

    I have posted multiple time on the EU forums about this, as well as tweeting GC, regarding how the optimal survival build isn't the fun build, and that where survivability is an issue prot warriors need to sacrifice the most DPS of the all the tank classes to overcome it. If I had it my way i'd nerf the rage off Revenge back down to 15, let it proc Sword and Board, let revenge crit enrage us, and let avoidance extend the duration of shield block by 1.5 seconds, but remove shield block extending shield block mechanic.

    EDIT: Technically Stamina is smoother, but it heavily depends on the size/type of the hits
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  6. #626
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    I personally have been gauging my stamina/mastery mix based on kind of a "gut feeling" they're both still important, but I do feel like getting to 100% crit block is really amazing, and that we do kind of have "enough" hit points. I've been adding more stamina as I felt like I've needed a bigger raw hit point pool, and then as I feel like I'm getting too spikey been mixing in more mastery...

    ... I really have no numbers justification for my exact gemming strategy at the moment. Really just a gut feeling.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I personally have been gauging my stamina/mastery mix based on kind of a "gut feeling" they're both still important, but I do feel like getting to 100% crit block is really amazing, and that we do kind of have "enough" hit points. I've been adding more stamina as I felt like I've needed a bigger raw hit point pool, and then as I feel like I'm getting too spikey been mixing in more mastery...

    ... I really have no numbers justification for my exact gemming strategy at the moment. Really just a gut feeling.
    Well, it reminds me of the "unhittable" threshold that existed in cataclysm. Once you reach this 100% crit block threshold you will essentially take 60% less damage 66% percent of the time, you would need to do the math to be sure, unfortunately there is no Protection warrior equivalent to Theck.

    The question is it better to stack some avoidance with stamina, stack avoidance with mastery, or just use the traditional Stamina>Mastery build. Obviously, the stamina>Mastery build is the best surviability build.

  8. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    Well, it reminds me of the "unhittable" threshold that existed in cataclysm. Once you reach this 100% crit block threshold you will essentially take 60% less damage 66% percent of the time, you would need to do the math to be sure, unfortunately there is no Protection warrior equivalent to Theck.
    good thing Theck works on prot warrior stuff too, and good thing between him and simcraft and a few other theorycrafters *coughcough* simcraft is a highly viable tool for working this sort of thing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    The question is it better to stack some avoidance with stamina, stack avoidance with mastery, or just use the traditional Stamina>Mastery build. Obviously, the stamina>Mastery build is the best surviability build.
    depends what you're dying to, of if you're even dying.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #629
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    I personally think there are three builds.

    1) DPS build: Hit/Exp to caps > Parry > Dodge > Stam = Mastery - ish by the time you get to stam/mastery you're not really doing anything except maybe putting a parry/stam gem in a blue slot, though if your stats are just right you could do hit/parry and reforge the extra hit on your armor to more parry or dodge.

    2) Survival Build 1: Do you have enough ilevel to get to 100% crit block AND is there lots of melee damage on the fights you are worried about (aka: does block do anything for you on survival for the fight. For Garrosh, this answer is YES.) -> Hit/Exp to cap > mastery to cap > stamina >>> avoidance

    3) Survival Build 2: Do you need more stam? -> Hit/Exp to caps > Stam >= Mastery >>> Avoidance.

    Right now I'm hovering around build 3.

    I really think if you're going to an avoidance build, you need to be going all in on that.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #630
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    Also: getting caught up on the numbers is a bit rough. Tanking is far less about the raw numbers than DPS, it's way more about strategy.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    The rage generation of stat's like hit/exp are the only reason that they are ranked higher than any other stat.
    Nope. Dead Melees as a result of 2-3 missed hits in a row will blame you legitimately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryjoered View Post
    my argument is that parry/avoidance is a viable gearing strategy that both increases damage and smooths it via rage generation.
    It increases your dmg, but the "smoothing" from avoidance is not always there and therefore not reliable.
    If you take your hit-string directly after a big breath (after which you have nearly no rage because you popped Sbar) you get no rage for further sbaring and die. If you are willing to do this gambling, fine.

    Looking at stat-choice from cutting-edge guilds is kind of meaningless atm, because surviving is not an issue with top-healers in your back. You will survive with both builds most of the time (sadly).
    Looking at Method-raids from Sco's pov always drives me crazy. His HP-bar is jumping up and down - but his healers don't care most of the time and top him off in an instant. In Ra-den-tries you could clearly see that when they switched off him for only a short moment because something went wrong - he died and had to be rezzed.
    With current gear this situation doesn't occur that often anymore - because of higher avoidance-chances, but they are still there.
    If you compare this to treckie, their prot-pally, who is totally into the smoothing-department, it almost feels unfair ^^.

    I'd also like to see actual hc-bosses that are tuned with such a tight enrage-timer making tank-DPS matter. We talk about 5-10 seconds less raid-DMG here, depending on raid-size and encounter.
    So the avoidance-way is viable and maybe funny, but smoothing in my opinion is still way superior.

  12. #632
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    I'm really annoyed at how weak most of the bosses have hit this tier. most of them unless you take twice as many stacks of whatever debuff you're meant to, or stand in the poo, or fuck up some other mechanic, it really doesn't seem like i'm in any danger of dying.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #633
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    Yes, I get that parry/dodge is spiky, but the argument is that if you have more rage to work with you would have more opportunities. I've already conceded that mastery and stamina are better smoothing stat's the point is do we even really need them and are we that much harder to heal.

    Sco actually was pure stamina, for most of tier 15 that would squarely place him in the smoothing department. Anyways, I really wanna see some concrete math on 5.4 showing the varying degrees of "smoothness".

  14. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I'm really annoyed at how weak most of the bosses have hit this tier. most of them unless you take twice as many stacks of whatever debuff you're meant to, or stand in the poo, or fuck up some other mechanic, it really doesn't seem like i'm in any danger of dying.
    Don't worry, Garrosh does more melee damage than Paragons and Blackfuse added together.

  15. #635
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    I provided some simcraft results showing how stats affect TMI a few pages back, and later the TMI, DPS and DTPS for several gear sets and contrasted them with a tier 15HC pally . If you want to generate some for yourself run simcraft, Import yourself, and scale Stam, mastery, parry, dodge, hit, exp, against TMI.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-01-2013 at 04:10 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I provided some simcraft results showing how stats affect TMI a few pages back, and later the TMI, DPS and DTPS for several gear sets and contrasted them with a tier 15HC pally . If you want to generate some for yourself run simcraft, Import yourself, and scale Stam, mastery, parry, dodge, hit, exp, against TMI.
    Ok, I have simcraft, could you walk me through how to do that? I know how to import my character and scale stats just not sure how to use the TMI.

  17. #637
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    Hmmm, pretty sure I figured out how to do the TMI (under Scaling--->scale over--->tmi) and here is the stat priority that I'm getting. Stamina>hit/exp>dodge/parry>mastery>crit. The actual scaling factor scales armor after stamina, which we all know has no impact on gearing strategy. It also scales hit/exp last, but that is because I am capped on this character. So, this seems to be the best of both worlds for my particular character, I get some avoidance for dps, but just crank out stamina while matching socket bonuses for my smooth damage intake.

    This is using the tier 16H25m patchwerk style. I tank 25man, which if I understand correctly makes stamina more valuable for some reason.
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 10-02-2013 at 10:01 AM.

  18. #638
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    Just double check simcraft isn't bugging out an has you using Shield block my co-tanks reporting that theirs an issue whith 540-3 where it cast like 3 actions at the start of the fight and then just has you waiting around for the rest of the time.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #639
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    Yes, it shows 0% uptime WTF? how do you fix this, not sure how to alter the rotation or actions executed.

  20. #640
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    On the simulate tab you can manually change the actions priority list. I have my own custom priority list which better reflects my playstlye (using demo/gloves/trinks to fill gaps in the metagem uptime). I believe it should work if you delete the line that reads;
    actions+=/run_action_list,name=dps_cds,if=stat.attack_power> health.max*0.2
    Remember the stat weights are what you get if you add 1k rating to your present gear, so are great for telling you where you kwant to go from that point. However, to get a true comparison you generally want to swap more than 1k, at the bottom of the page are the little stat overrides, which if you delete the # at the stat of each line will use that stat number, so you can do a quick and dirty comparisons of stats, like say swapping 70% of your dodge and parry and bunging it in mastery and comparing it to your current build, its not quite as accurate as building a new gear set optimizing for mastery, or stam or whatever, but it's good enough for proof of concept.

    EDIT: a;so keep in mid TMIs are like like golf scores, the lower they are the smoother your damage intake.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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