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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #601
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    Re: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

    You cannot keep shield block up 100% of the time.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaerran View Post
    Have a question for the group. I feel there is a point of too much mastery, do you guys agree?

    Mastery and EH are better tanking stats, I am in agreement there... with that premise, If we keep the Mastery level at say ~73%, keep Parry at ~22% and then dodge at ~5% - that should give us 100% chance to critically block, dodge or parry every melee attack (assuming you keep sBlock up 100% of the time...which is easy to do with the rage changes). It seems we can then start stacking crit (to improve rage generation for sBarriers)...
    Does not work that way.

    Besides SB capping out at 2/3 uptime, Warriors are now on a 3-roll system:
    Roll A:
    * Check for Parry or Dodge, else
    -> Roll B:
    -> * Check if it's a block, if it is, roll for crit
    -> -> Roll C:
    -> -> * Crit block!


    This means that in your example:
    ~27% avoidance
    ~29.6% Block chance (13% base + 2.2/0.5 * 73% Mastery)
    ~73% crit block chance

    Combat table will be:
    27% Avoid
    21.61% total blocked:
    * 5.83% normal
    * 15.78% crit blocks
    51.39% full hit

    During SB:
    27% Avoid
    73% blocked:
    * 19.73% normal
    * 53.29% crit blocks

    So regardless of what you do, you will
    a) get fully hit half the time outside of SB
    b) Still have ~20% of the swings in SB be 'only' normal blocks



    FYI: here are the average values:
    27% Avoid
    55.86% blocked:
    * 15.08% normal
    * 40.78% crit blocks
    17.14% full hits
    Meaning you still get ~1/6 of the hits as a full swing, henc why we SBar when SB is not up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaerran View Post
    Have a question for the group. I feel there is a point of too much mastery, do you guys agree?
    I agree you can have too much mastery, but not at 75% because of what Airowird has already explained. There are two situations where I consider mastery excessive; Firstly, when you have over 100% crit block, secondly, when your survivability is trivial any, any amount of mastery is excessive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaerran View Post
    It seems we can then start stacking crit (to improve rage generation for sBarriers)...
    Avoidance are better RPS stats than Crit. Crit is a better DPS stat if you want more Sbars hit and exp cap and then go full avoidance.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 09-17-2013 at 04:22 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  4. #604
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    For Mastery, 89% unbuffed is the (soft-)cap, everything above 100% critblock is wasted, because we only recieve a bit more block chance.

    The stat choice heavily depends on the self-understanding of the tanking person, the raid's needs and the gearlevel.
    In my opinion the tank's job in a raid is providing stability to the raid so that the other roles can get their jobs done.
    We do this by channeling the incoming damage to present it to the healers in a manageable way.
    Since Aggro and therefore channeling has been trivialized, incoming dmg-handling and putting out dmg myself are left.

    In my mind (although we put out some sort of DPS now) it is not our primary job to help the Raid with our dmg.
    I know big numbers as tank are fun, but if I want to see them, I play a DPS-Class which is woven around exactly this.
    If the raid needs more dmg to down a boss, I get tankier to make it possible to one-tank/one-/two-heal a fight so that a dmg-machine can hop in.
    In non-progression-fights the bonus dmg I can put out by choosing a DPS-build is even more trivialized, because one week later the Raid-DPS would be much higher anyways, due to gear-lvl raising constantly.

    So when I have choose my statweights, I have to ask myself: How can I provide stability best?

    Two categories are important here:
    1) what content am I doing?
    2) Am I well suited/under/overgeared for it?

    Progression - undergeared
    :
    If I am doing progression fights undergeared, I will have issues to survive and give the raid time to pull of the strategy.
    (I remember Sarth 3D breathes if you were no dk/bear and things, heavy-hitter, etc.). So I will focus on Dmg-smoothing and reducing incoming dmg reliably.
    [without T16-2piece:
    Hit/Exp>Stamina>Mastery>Avoidance>Crit
    posessing T16-2piece:
    - Hit/Exp>Stamina>Mastery>Avoidance>Crit (if content is magic-heavy or healers are struggling)
    OR:
    - Hit/Exp>Mastery>Stamina>Avoidance>Crit (if healers are fine and magic-dmg can be handled)]

    Progression - well geared:
    When being well suited for a content, survivability should be good enough to balance between:
    - building up an hp pool to cover bad situations / heavy magic nukes where my dmg-reducing abilities won't work
    - reducing DTPS to save healer-mana + provide possible DPS-Slots
    [without T16-2piece: Hit/Exp>Stamina>Mastery>Avoidance>Crit
    posessing T16-2piece: Hit/Exp>Mastery>Stamina>Avoidance>Crit.]

    Progression: overgeared / farming:
    When overgearing/farming content surviving or bad situations are mostly no issue anymore (or the raid is doing something very wrong). The HP-Pool is provided by gear alone, incoming dmg is reduced, incoming heals are bigger, the fights are much shorter because of raiddamage and random shit should be rarely happening because everyone is doing the encounter for weeks.
    The only goal remaining is Reducing DTPS to provide even more dps-slots plus surviving even worse situations than before.
    [resulting in Hit/Exp>Avoidance>Mastery>Stamina>Crit]

    I will do T16 10manHC-progression-raiding with T15 normal gear. So i am undergeared and will focus on Hit/Exp>Stamina>Mastery>Avoidance>Crit.
    When I got T16-2piece and I am fine with my HP-Pool I will switch to Hit/Exp>Mastery>Stamina>Avoidance>Crit asap.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudead View Post
    In my mind (although we put out some sort of DPS now) it is not our primary job to help the Raid with our dmg.
    I know big numbers as tank are fun, but if I want to see them, I play a DPS-Class which is woven around exactly this.
    If the raid needs more dmg to down a boss, I get tankier to make it possible to one-tank/one-/two-heal a fight so that a dmg-machine can hop in.
    In non-progression-fights the bonus dmg I can put out by choosing a DPS-build is even more trivialized, because one week later the Raid-DPS would be much higher anyways, due to gear-lvl raising constantly.

    So when I have choose my statweights, I have to ask myself: How can I provide stability best?
    OMG THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS 1,000 times this ^^^^

    This is what I'm sayin' man! 100% agree!
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  6. #606
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    Is there an optimal ratio for parry to dodge ?

  7. #607
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    yes but it changes as you aquire mored dodge/parry/strength. There is a macro I've listed in the guide that will tell you if you need more doge or parry to balance it out.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #608
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    Do they need to be as equal as possible? Most warriors I've seen that "go avoidance" have kinda just gone all-in on parry.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  9. #609
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    Re: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

    Okay thank you

    sent from my samsung galaxy s3

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Do they need to be as equal as possible? Most warriors I've seen that "go avoidance" have kinda just gone all-in on parry.
    Balancing them you arguable get less HtL procs, but you do get more Rev procs, arguable it doesn't really matter.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Balancing them you arguable get less HtL procs, but you do get more Rev procs, arguable it doesn't really matter.
    And then if you want to ger REAL min/maxy you can throw in Dancing Steel VS Rivers Song and how much value you want the proc to have!

  12. #612
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    I had heard or read some where that you wanted 2 to 2 and a half times more parry than dodge since they changed the way diminishing returns worked on parry.The idea was that parry diminished much slower than dodge.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan81 View Post
    I had heard or read some where that you wanted 2 to 2 and a half times more parry than dodge since they changed the way diminishing returns worked on parry.The idea was that parry diminished much slower than dodge.
    Was it perhaps in this very guide?

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregasaurous View Post
    And then if you want to ger REAL min/maxy you can throw in Dancing Steel VS Rivers Song and how much value you want the proc to have!
    you want River song; Dancing steel gives strength which doesn't get converted in crit via riposte.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    you want River song; Dancing steel gives strength which doesn't get converted in crit via riposte.
    Well, I hadn't thought of that. Though now that you point it out it seems rather obvious. Funny how that works.

  16. #616
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    Basicly, you want Parry Rating + hidden strength Parry = ~3.6 * Dodge Rating
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  17. #617
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    Ok, Mastery may be slightly smoother, but the majority of the tanking community is going dodge/parry. http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html This link is a list of ALL protection warriors that have cleared 6/14 or more bosses in heroic SoO. Mastery is the bottom of the list, It goes Parry/Dodge>Stamina>Crit in terms of popular gearing choices amongst heroic raiders. Now think about this for a second, being that it is the beginning of the tier, these people are UNDERGEARED for the content and they still go the "spiky" avoidance route, with hybrid avoidance/stamina gems in blue sockets.

    The reasoning is clear in my mind, while mastery or stamina stacking maybe the best option for smooth damage intake, avoidance is almost as good due to the ridiculously high rage generation. Add to this the fact that you can put up huge numbers, even when compared to brewmasters and the choice is clear. Tank DPS does matter on progression content it is as simple as that.

    So avoidance is a combination of the least overall damage taken, the highest damage dealt, and is spikier than a mastery stamina build, but not as spiky as crit. Even a weak shield block is still a great smoothing mechanic and with avoidance you will have enough rage to always have that off CD.
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 10-01-2013 at 08:09 AM.

  18. #618
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    I think parts of your reasoning is flawed, you really do not get that much extra rage, we're talking 3 shield barriers a minute extra. With the proper rotation and hit/exp caps and about 3k mastery rating, prot warriors generate enough rage to always be able to use Sblock on CD.

    I don't disagree tank DPS matters (on progressions, or otherwise), even wrath babies knew this when prot warriors where getting benched for our low deeps back in Ulduar.

    The reason I think we're able to do this is two-fold, firstly the vast majority of prot warriors have the legendary meta gem, and this that thing is ridiculously powerful for damage smoothing, it's stupidly good, >50% of the time we have the equivalent of a demo shout up, i really doubt that many healers could tell the difference between a melee hit with the meta gem up, or a block without it. The second part of this is that SoO is tuned to be done, without the metagem, so all of us prot warriors with the meta gem are significantly ahead in the smoothing department, almost certainly smooth enough (with a couple of exceptions). if you slap on top the legendary cape proc, its overkill, you can take a spike every two minutes, just because. Most of the smoothing theorycrafters considered 1 spike every 2 hours in combat to be more than they were willing to accept in T14 progression, now we have something that removes a spike event every two minutes. the legendary bits are very effective, but the raid is tuned around not having them to avoid "legendary or GTFO" being a thing.

    I'm kinda sad that survivability is such a non-issue TBH.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #619
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    I would argue that people in full heroic/heroic thunderforged T15 gear are not undergeared for T16 heroic content.

    I think we've all gone in full circles about this, and I've said before, if you're not dying and want to push the edge of the envelope of survivability to push more DPS, then that's what people are going to be doing, especially in hardcore raiding guilds. If that works for you, and you're not dying, fine.

    HOWEVER, I always contend that for the average joe raider, you probably shouldn't be looking at what the heroic raiders are doing. They're gearing for specific fights, they're tuning for specific timers, they may be changing their gear load-outs for specific tactics.

    Furthermore: you don't go avoidance FOR survivability. You go for avoidance for more DPS, period. According to the math, the analysis, and the in-game experiences avoidance stacking is still far more spikey than mastery/stam. Theck's TMI math proves this. You go avoidance for DPS, flat out. Don't kid yourself about going avoidance for suvivability. Now... If you are "Surviving enough" and you're good enough to go avoidance and your raid needs the extra DPS and you're killing bosses, then fine, go for avoidance. My advice is still going to be for the average raider to go mastery/stam though.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post

    Furthermore: you don't go avoidance FOR survivability. You go for avoidance for more DPS, period. According to the math, the analysis, and the in-game experiences avoidance stacking is still far more spikey than mastery/stam. Theck's TMI math proves this. You go avoidance for DPS, flat out. Don't kid yourself about going avoidance for suvivability. Now... If you are "Surviving enough" and you're good enough to go avoidance and your raid needs the extra DPS and you're killing bosses, then fine, go for avoidance. My advice is still going to be for the average raider to go mastery/stam though.
    If you're going by Theck's Research, he also says that shield block is a great smoothing mechanic with or without the high critical block. The rage generation of stat's like hit/exp are the only reason that they are ranked higher than any other stat. I contend that mastery/stamina is indeed better at smoothing damage, but my argument is that parry/avoidance is a viable gearing strategy that both increases damage and smooths it via rage generation.

    Also, could you link me to some math on 5.4 protection warriors? I've been looking everywhere for it.
    Last edited by Bryjoered; 10-01-2013 at 11:45 AM.

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