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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #581
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    From a DTPS stand point Riposte manages to sorta equalize avoidance to mastery, From a TMI stand point Avoidance still sucks. From a DPS stand point Avoidance is worth ~75% of crit and not even 50% of Hit/Exp before their caps, Unless you take GoHtL in which case Parry jumps up to be worth ~90% of crit.

    In 5 mans I'd get hit/exp caps and then go full avoidance.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  2. #582
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    I'm quite confused, few people seem willing to question the "stamina/mastery > parry/dodge" ethos that exists in this thread.

    Here is a quote from askmrrobot: "With the 5.4 changes, we recommend an avoidance build as the best balance of durability and tank DPS, both of which are important for most raid situations. By default, we recommend a 'Medium' Stamina strategy for normal-mode tanking. If you are doing heroic 10 or 25 raids, or you feel a bit squishy for any reason, customize to use a 'High' Stamina strategy, or consider a Mastery build."

    Also, the mmo-champion thread seems to recommend to prioritise avoidance as well: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ection-Warrior.

    Here are the armory links to current people who have significant T15 heroic experience that have posted to the first page of the above thread. They all prioritise parry and dodge over both stamina and mastery.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/Tofifi/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostwhisper/Sn%C3%A8/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/tarren-mill/Snore/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/blades-edge/Odeanathus/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ithra/advanced

    And here are some quotes from the mmo-champion thread in the last couple of days:
    "I used an all out parry/dodge build last night (8/14N), and absolutely loved it." farmergregor
    "I geared full avoidance last night and omg. So much rage! The spikier damage intake is completely offset by all of the extra shield absorbs." mongoose6
    "I switched to avoidance and damn i love the rage generation." Lintan
    "New SimC 540-1 is online. But the result is very clear. Avoidance Gear brings a lot of fun back to Warrior Tanking." Muuku

    Why are simulations in mmo-champion thread and askmrrobot recommending a different gemming strategy than the simulations presented in this thread?



  3. #583
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    Probably because everyone's using different parameters when simming.

    If you have significant experience isn T15 heroics, unless you've been particularly bad with RNG you and your raid outgear T16 Flex and normals, and when you out gear content Tank survivability tends becomes trivial. If tank survivability becomes trivial, there's no reason to try and gain more survivability, it's like giving Superman a bulletproof vest; overkill. No ones started heroics yet so it remains to be seen if Tank survivability is an issue. Also keep in mind the entire posts in MMO-C, no one likes being quoted out of context, and the first person you quote goes on to specifically states he has no basis for comparison and that it's entirely formed from experience "on very very easy normal modes" Hell the last post as of now says that nothing is actually hitting hard enough to properly evaluate anything.

    I'm trying to present facts so that people can make an informed choice; Avoidance is very good for two things, our DPS and our DTPS (which has never really been a good measure of a tank), however it still lags behind mastery for Smoothness. Whether you give two hoots for smoothness is entirely up to you, or your raid leader/group. if you compare mrrobots suggestion to the bolded part of my stats section, they don't exactly disagree;

    In short: Stamina until you're healers are comfortable with your Health pool, then Mastery for survivability or Avoidance for DPS
    I've said on multiple occasions since the Riposte was announced that avoidance looks fun, is fun, and for personal enjoyment is my preferred way of playing, Hell, I've been tweeting GC incessantly to nerf stamina and mastery and buff avoidance to get dodge and parry ahead for both smoothness and DPS, but until either someone shows me some solid maths to that avoidance gives the smoothest damage intake, or that tank survivability is totally irrelevant in Siege, which it might be given the meta-gem and cloak, I'm gonna trust my sims
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  4. #584
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    These people don't know what they're talking about, imo. I think they just perceive they are swimming in rage because of the revenge buff generating more rage and the small amount of increase from base avoidance giving some more crit. I go a straight stam build and was also "swimming in rage" last night.

    Also: people in heroic T14 gear doing normal mode T15 are probably just out gearing it regardless and it doesn't matter if they go avoidance. Me in my 504 gear... I was very happy to have the extra stam or I would not have survived the fights I tanked.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  5. #585
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    Double post: yeah, the first guy you linked has more hit points than me unbuffed than I do buffed, he has 40 ilevels on me. Avoidance isn't "more optimal" he's just straight up out-gearing normal mode content.

    I don't trust what any HM decked tank says until they're tanking hard modes again. What I do trust is math: and the math is saying stam/mastery still wins.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #586
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    So on Tuesday I did Immersius, Protectors and Norushen attempts as a mastery-oriented build, and tonight I tried out a riposte build with work on Norushen, Sha and then Galakras. My gear level is 538, so I'd say I'm "appropriately" geared for normal SoO (doing 25 man). Since WoL is borked right now, I don't have logs to back this up, but I absolutely felt noticeably squishier as the avoidance build, regardless of having some more rage for extra barriers. The obvious comparison point would be Norushen since I had attempts with both builds, and I definitely felt it. Also on the Sha burn phase I found myself wishing I could mitigate more damage.

    That said, the extra damage is definitely real, and on an add fight like Galakras I can absolutely see a riposte build having strong merit. My instincts tell me mastery will still be the way to go for heroic 25s and possibly normal 25s if your raid doesn't out-gear the content (if you are heroic ToT gear, then by all means go riposte IMO).

  7. #587
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    The thing is to treat Survivability like Healer's treat spirit. You need enough to get through the fight, but excess doesn't really do much for you unless you habitually screw up.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #588
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    Anyone else not seeing Recklessness giving extra crit?
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 09-14-2013 at 02:05 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #589
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    Doesn't alter my character sheet crit chance, but that's potentially because the tooltip states it gives 30% crit on specials only. Will test more.

  10. #590
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    Yep, on my char-sheet it is not applied at the moment.
    I also realized it during the raid on Thursday. At the dummy i popped reck several times and I didnt land one crit most of the time.

  11. #591
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    Quick test with small sample size:

    50 vanilla Devastates w/5.01% crit chance: 47 hits (94%) / 3 crits (6%)

    50 Devastates w/ Reck, notional 35.01% Crit chance: 34 hits (68%) / 16 crits (32%)

    Seems fine.

  12. #592
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    Teng/Agg,

    I just did a LFR HoF w/ avoidance reforges to see if there's any substance to what folks are saying. I was with you guys, pretty sceptical of the benefits, but I have to admit I really do feel like I have far more rage to play with compared with post-patch Mastery. Constant back-to back Revenges, very very nice for cleaving. Can't really report on damage intake because LFR. Gonna stick with avoidance for today, potentially going Siege in an hour so I'll see how I feel after that.

  13. #593
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    There's no denying that there's extra rage, you can basically get to where you're just spamming revenge. It IS better DPS to go avoidance.

    But then... ::INSERT EVERY AVOIDANCE/DAMAGE SMOOTHING ARGUMENT HERE::
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  14. #594
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    Yeah, I'm less enamoured the damage taken part after doing a couple of bosses in siege. Probably going to go back to mastery, at least for single target bosses. I hate this 'tanks must do decent DPS' thing. Ugh.

    More later.

  15. #595
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    I'm not skeptical of the benefits.

    2 months ago when they annouced Riposte on the PTR i posted the following
    So i've updated my RPS calculator for 5.4 and come across a few interesting things.
    • Extra rage gains have upped our RPS by ~1.2. doesn't seem like a lot but its nearly 50% more excess rage after deducting what we need to keep Sblock Rolling.
    • All of the buffs have been a boon to the RPS value of avoidance,
    • in terms of raw RPS Hit/exp>avoidance>crit>Mastery>str
    • Crit sucks for us as it doesn't give extra Rev procs
    • Strength sucks as it doesn't get converted into crit via riposte
    and the next day;
    It's alot of fun, big numbers everywhere, to the extent that i can't believe they'll let it go live, and if they do they'll have to nerf it very quickly.

    EDIT:its ~30% damage increase whilst questing.
    and they did nerf it via a 17% vengeance nerf.

    I am very aware of the advantages of Avoidance stacking. I've said so and show simcraft results to back up that avoidance is a good DPS stat and good for DTPS.

    What i'm saying is that in terms of damage smoothing, and with no inference to any other metrics whatsoever, avoidance is still behind Mastery and stam. if your healers don't care how spiky you are because you out gear content, or they're awesome healers, or you're a tanking legend, or the content is ridiculously easy, or all of the above then caring about how smooth your damage intake in is kinda moot. But if you and your healers do care then you do want more mastery stam.

    That's all I'm saying; if you want to be easier to heal/more survivable then you want more mastery or stam. If your happy with how survivability you are and how smooth you areto heal, you probably don't need more mastery/stam.

    Just like if you're happy with you're current wife you probably shouldn't get another one.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #596
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    I would still make the argument that it's a question of "what's optimal". If you raid needs more dps then sure go avoidance. But for actually taking punches to the face, mastery/stam is still better.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #597
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    THats the point people don't seem to grasp, you're comparing apples and oranges, avoidance great for DPS, not so great for survivability. Cheese; great on crackers, not so great as lubricant.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  18. #598

  19. #599
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    Ok, I clearly chose my words poorly. We're pretty much all on the same page it seems, and I've not read the earlier pages of the thread thoroughly enough.

    My aim isn't really to debate or challenge your findings, I'm simply experimenting to decided which strategy of gearing I want to use as a baseline. Which offers the most reasonable balance of factors for going into new content blind. I'm a practical person, I prefer to see things in action, thus testing.

    I'm leaning towards mastery right now for the most part. In a strictly single target scenario I felt like the rage gain of mastery and avoidance are roughly equal. The difference in incoming damage profile is indeed very noticeable in this situation and I feel much more comfortable as mastery. This was a key area I was curious about, and I think I have my answer. The situation in which I did prefer the avoidance bias is multi-mob. Endless Revenge procs lead to buckets of rage, almost as much Barrier weaving as you could ever desire, and oodles of Revenge cleave damage. I feel like the increased Barrier usage in this situation could compensate for the spikier damage profile. It also feels like the short-lived Unrelenting Assault spec back in Lich King which was hella fun to play.

  20. #600
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    Have a question for the group. I feel there is a point of too much mastery, do you guys agree?

    Mastery and EH are better tanking stats, I am in agreement there... with that premise, If we keep the Mastery level at say ~73%, keep Parry at ~22% and then dodge at ~5% - that should give us 100% chance to critically block, dodge or parry every melee attack (assuming you keep sBlock up 100% of the time...which is easy to do with the rage changes). It seems we can then start stacking crit (to improve rage generation for sBarriers)...

    Folks like having the avoidance for crit chance, but really... stack mastery to ~73% or 75%, then just start to stack crit and get better results (making sure you hit 100% coverage through parry/dodge chances too)

    Some overly geared tanks are seeing 25% crit chance while keeping 100% mitigated damage like I described.

    Slootbag was theory crafting about this on his stream and is geared enough to pull it off, check out here.

    Perhaps this is something for most warriors to look forward to once they are full SoO geared.

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