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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #541
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    I haven't compared AoE, i'll need to setup a priority list, whislt i agree we're weaker than the agility tanks in this department i'm finidng against the strength tanks AoE seems to go to whomever gets vengeance first and with a charge/HL/TC combo its generally not a problem for me, I wouldn't be surprised if our AoE is fucking mental now since the 2 of the 3 major components have had 50%+ buffs.

    I've added a thing in the main guide on how how you dump rage will have be a large part in deteterming your stat priority, and asumming a rolling SBlock, Sbar as a rage bleed and counter to big hits i'm finidng hit/exp are quite some way behind mastery which i interpret as we're producing So much rage in 5.4 that being able to produce the minimum 60 RP9 is kinda trivial, i'm averaging 11.2 RPS, on average i can drop an Sblock and by the time i need to drop the next one i will have over 100 rage, and whislt its nice to be able to layer an Sbar over an SBlock when countering Boss specials, Boss specials tend not to happen all that often so the vast majority of Sbars are basically taking attacks which have very low chance of forming a fatal hit string (becuase we have Sblock up) and reducing the chance that they'll form a hit string. It's overkill, wasted, smoothing the smoothest part; like i said in the earlier in the thread, the number of Sbars is not really as important as the timing of them; sbars for every snapping bite is good, SBars jsut to bleed rage is just extra TDR, you're not going to die in six seconds to gauranteed blocks or maybe even guanranteed crit blocks. If we move over to what Theck calls a F-110 rotation where we try to always have something up, Mastery value falls off and hit/exp become very powerful, and that might be the way to go now.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    • Avoidance is Lags behind every other stat except crit
    • Avoidance is still worse than any other tank stat
    • As were not going to stack avoidance, Riposte is marginalized
    • All the DPS buffs total to about a 3% DPS increase
    I really don't get you. If you were tanking 25m then maybe I'd agree with you, but why would you gimp yourself by not going the full avoidance route next patch? Approaching 50% avoidance and having Shield Block up with 1-2 Stamina trinkets to boot, you don't need any more smoothing. Blockable attacks can't and will not ever hit so hard that you need that mastery cap and by not going avoidance you're missing out on so much damage and rage.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydoria View Post
    [/LIST]I really don't get you. If you were tanking 25m then maybe I'd agree with you, but why would you gimp yourself by not going the full avoidance route next patch? Approaching 50% avoidance and having Shield Block up with 1-2 Stamina trinkets to boot, you don't need any more smoothing. Blockable attacks can't and will not ever hit so hard that you need that mastery cap and by not going avoidance you're missing out on so much damage and rage.
    Have you done the math on this or simmed it heavily? Tengenstein typically does. If you have the math on it, I'm sure we'd all love to see it and discuss it. We have been missing this kind of conversation for a while. This comment is genuine and not a challenge or anything. However, until I see that math, I tend to trust that Teng has done his homework and is probably right on this.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydoria View Post
    [/LIST]I really don't get you. If you were tanking 25m then maybe I'd agree with you, but why would you gimp yourself by not going the full avoidance route next patch? Approaching 50% avoidance and having Shield Block up with 1-2 Stamina trinkets to boot, you don't need any more smoothing. Blockable attacks can't and will not ever hit so hard that you need that mastery cap and by not going avoidance you're missing out on so much damage and rage.
    Because as much as i would like to anything that makes warriors harder to kill/easier to heal on progression is generally an advantage. It may not be my favourite playstyle, I may completetly disagree with it thematically (3.3 and 4.2 Revenge not being in the rotation for example), but that doesn't stop it being true. I don't like the fact beer doens't cure cancer, but just becuase i want it to doesn't make it so.

    We are still in the PTR, and i do want avoidance to be better, which is why i twitted GHostcawler and say "hey we need love blah blah blah". I doubt it'll have much of an effect but if you want avoidance to be kick ass you are going to to have to let the devs know that you do and that currently its not working very well.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #545
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    is it even possible to stack avoidance to 50%+ while still having reasonable hit/expertise levels and "enough" hit points?

    All those revenge procs from dodging/parrying aren't gonna do you any good if they don't land.

    And isn't there an ICD on the rage gained from mastery? That's the enrage mechanic right? When you critically block you gain 10 rage and do 10% more damage for 6 seconds? Can you still gain more rage if you're already enraged or does it just reset the damage done timer?

    Since block is pushed off the table first, doesn't more avoidance DECREASE rage gained from mastery, technically? Especially since block/crit block is a 2 roll system now, right? "Do you avoid?" "No, do you block or critical block or full hit?" <- how is the % chance for critical block calculated there, these are things I don't remember, but because it's a two roll system you wouldn't even get to the second discussion, right?

    I... I just don't see how avoidance will ever be good given how steep the DRs are and what you sacrifice to get it. You might be able to get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's "Optimal".
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    twitted GHostcawler and say "hey we need love blah blah blah". I doubt it'll have much of an effect but if you want avoidance to be kick ass you are going to to have to let the devs know that you do and that currently its not working very well.
    Saw your tweet last night and was like "hey I know him". I'm one of you 6 followers now. I tweet under my rogues name Stagerlee.

  7. #547
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    You all should follow me on twitter! @Aggathon !
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  8. #548
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    @idefiler6 just started following you...this is off topic damn it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    is it even possible to stack avoidance to 50%+ while still having reasonable hit/expertise levels and "enough" hit points?

    All those revenge procs from dodging/parrying aren't gonna do you any good if they don't land.

    And isn't there an ICD on the rage gained from mastery? That's the enrage mechanic right? When you critically block you gain 10 rage and do 10% more damage for 6 seconds? Can you still gain more rage if you're already enraged or does it just reset the damage done timer?

    Since block is pushed off the table first, doesn't more avoidance DECREASE rage gained from mastery, technically? Especially since block/crit block is a 2 roll system now, right? "Do you avoid?" "No, do you block or critical block or full hit?" <- how is the % chance for critical block calculated there, these are things I don't remember, but because it's a two roll system you wouldn't even get to the second discussion, right?

    I... I just don't see how avoidance will ever be good given how steep the DRs are and what you sacrifice to get it. You might be able to get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's "Optimal".
    I'm at 30% unbuffed with ilevel 500, 600k hp roughly and capped stats. My stats blow away nearly every other tank I've seen in LFR ToT, go me.

    Yes I believe the ICD is on the enrage itself, so you can get enraged for 6 seconds, but if you crit block before 3 seconds basses it won't re-enrage you. After the first 3 seconds it will refresh the buff and grant 10 rage/10% damage.

    Technically yes on more avoidance decreasing rage from crit block enrages. The 2 roll, IIRC is this: dodge > parry > block (crit yes/no?). So if the attack makes it past avoidance and is blocked, there's technically another roll to see if it's a crit or not.

    I have no idea how it's all going to pan out, I'm just going to pay attention to what currently relevant tanks are doing and see how either method is working for them. I'm in a guild now where I don't know anyone and basically just run LFR to grab pieces I need at this point in time. As fury with prot offspec, because fuck that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    is it even possible to stack avoidance to 50%+ while still having reasonable hit/expertise levels and "enough" hit points?
    maybe after you're fully decked out in fully upgraded T16HC gear. and thats pre boss suppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    And isn't there an ICD on the rage gained from mastery? That's the enrage mechanic right? When you critically block you gain 10 rage and do 10% more damage for 6 seconds? Can you still gain more rage if you're already enraged or does it just reset the damage done timer?
    there is a 3s ICD on enrage from critical blocks, eneraging from other sources is not affected, nor triggers the ICD. you can test this on live with Zerker rage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Since block is pushed off the table first, doesn't more avoidance DECREASE rage gained from mastery, technically? Especially since block/crit block is a 2 roll system now, right? "Do you avoid?" "No, do you block or critical block or full hit?" <- how is the % chance for critical block calculated there, these are things I don't remember, but because it's a two roll system you wouldn't even get to the second discussion, right?
    Technically it's a 4 roll system;
    Roll to crit>roll to connect>roll to block>roll to critically Block.

    so yes more avoidance does decrease the rage gained by mastery i made a fairly massive post on the EU forums (which i then linked to GC) a while back about the problems of avoidance and how it gives with one hand but takes away with the other. you suffere the same problem with revenge procs, more Rev procs means Less SnBs which means less shield slams and less devastates so less opportunities to enrage.From a DPS point of view anything that Devastate can do revenge really ought to be able to do as well.

    EDIT: @ Dreador i'm at 34% avoidnace unbuffed, i have 18k str so the buff is worth 900str, i get less than 1rating per strenght so need 885 rating for 1% parry so the buffs about 1% right? takes me up to 35%. that means i need 15% to get to 50% avoidance 15x885 is 13275, except i lose 9% avoidance against bosses so i actually need 24% more avoidance 21,240 rating.

    and thats before Diminishing returns.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 08-30-2013 at 10:54 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #551
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    I thought it was probability based off of a table:

    Roll 1: Connection -

    6% - Crit - pushed off the table by spec, replaced with "hit"
    13% parry
    13% dodge (or whatever these values are)
    can bosses miss any more? I thought they couldn't, but 5% miss if they can

    so then say like if you rolled a 100 sided die (really it's /rand 0 1, and whatever percent that is correlates to your hit table)

    So if it's like 0-26 you'll avoid it, if it's 27-100 you go on to the next roll

    Roll 2 - Block?

    40% block
    20% crit block
    40% hit

    If 0-40, block, 41-60, crit block, 61-100, hit.

    So two rolls based off of a table.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    You all should follow me on twitter! @Aggathon !
    You have your second follower.

  13. #553
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    They changed it to stop CTC capping being a thing. it's now four rolls one to crit, one to connect (i.e. does it miss/parry/dodge/ or hit) if it hits it goes to next table; does it block, if it does it goes to the next table does it crit block.

    and yes bosses no longer miss.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  14. #554
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    well the 2 roll system would prevent that just as much without degredating whatever the other avoidance stat is. I could have SWORN that's what they did to prevent CTC, with the two roll system I listed above, there would be the same effect. Otherwise your second avoidance stat tooltip is wrong. P1*P2 != P1+P2
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  15. #555
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    it doens't make a whole load of difference since the first roll moot for all tanks, and only prot warriors have the fourth roll.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    it doens't make a whole load of difference since the first roll moot for all tanks, and only prot warriors have the fourth roll.
    No the crit roll is on the same roll as roll 1, it's just pushed off the table. It's a 4 roll system that doesn't make any sense and requires more computing power!

    I swear it's a 2 roll system, Fetzie can you back me up here?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #557
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    miss, dodge, parry, crit, crush, hit are on the first roll.

    block yes/no is the second roll

    critical block yes/no is the third roll and dependent on roll 2 being "block" (and exclusive to warrior tanks).

  18. #558
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    Okay so we were both right! (/both wrong)
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  19. #559
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    Hurrah?
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  20. #560
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    wat

    Yeah crit block is calculated after block/hit. So say you have shield block on CD and the buff is off, 21%ish to block, 79% hit. You roll 1-21 and block it, THEN it goes to crit block 1-60 block, 61-100 crit block assuming 40% mastery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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