I totally agree with you, Tengenstein. But naturally, seeing your words, I have some questions.
You've got to remember that the enrage of Dev and SS crits is devalued as you add more avoidnace; more avoidance means more Rev procs, More Revs means less Devs, less Devs, less SnBs, Less SnBs less SHield Slams, meaning overall whislt avoidnace stacking will mean you're more likely to enrage when you do use Dev and SS, you're pressing those buttons less anyway.and becuase you're traded mastery out for avoidance, less boss attacks are getting to the 4th roll, and if they do less of them are critical blocks, so you lose enrage procs that way too.
First, Because the purpose of Riposte is increasing our tanking DPS, then can we find the appropriate dealing rotation to maximize damage dealing and generating rage better than fish-fish-truck?
Second, for example, if our actual avoidance is 50%, then the performance of SB and SBar becomes almost same except some rare spike, right? Considering the boss' slower swing speed by debuff, AoE casting, reducing our survival ability cooltime, and our ability of real-time watching amount of shield number with addon such as protwarbar, then is it possible to try avoidance-SBar warrior tanker in 5.4 with damage smoothing to maximize our DPS? If not, why?
Last edited by KR_Maintanker; 07-31-2013 at 11:49 PM.
It's been Truck Truck Fish for a while now. the individual DPEs of abilities haven't really changed so as far as DPS goes very little is happening, except Ultimatum prcs are becoming more significant, but being as they are off the GCD this is only going to extend the gap in DPS between a properly played and a badly played protection warrior.
You can try an avoidance-Sbar tanking style but its not going to maximise smoothness or DPS: At 50% avoidance i doubt SB and SBar perfrom the same, ignoring the fact that to have 50% actual avoidance you would need 59% buffed avoidance, which is probably not achievable outside of trinket procs; Avoidance still has diminishing returns, the more you stack the less the value of it is and because we naturally get parry from strength parry is going to be heavy into DRS. Full avoidance stacking in the highest ilvl gear you are still going to have maybe 40-50% mastery buffed and probably only 35-40% avoidance after boss suppression, without SB up you massively decrease the amount of crit blocks (you lose about 66% of them), which is going to have a negative effect on rage generation and Enrage uptime, and make the GoHR bit redundant, which is going to lower your DPS; GoHR is quite powerful even using SS only once every six seconds you get every other SS empowered if you manage to use an Sblock every 9 seconds which averages to a 25% damage increase to your highest DPE ability. As to smoothness it'll work fine right up you get a hit string, which has always been the reason Avoidance tanking falls over. Rage is still granular, which makes Sbar usage less predicatable especially so when you suddenly eat a hit string (can't spam Rev). Avoidance tanking has always relied on best case and average scenarios. Shield block prevents the worst case scenario, and that's when tanks die: In the worst case scenario. Sure avoidance Sbar stacking means you need a to eat a 6 hit string and sure that's not gonna happen that often, but with SBlock its never going to happen ever.
We're getting so much more rage in 5,4 it seems silly to think in terms of Sbar or SBlock, we have the rage to use both, why only use one to the exclusion of the other. Use both, be smooth and take less damage whilst maxing DPS, and ultimately the most telling reason avoidance-Sbar won't work is becuase Blizzard dont' want it to, so even if by some freak it does catch on, Blizzard will nerf Sbar so it's not viable. Just like they did in 5.2 for the same reason.
Slower swing speed debuff was removed in in 5.0.4.
So do you still think you'll be aiming to increase avoidance at the cost of capping mastery (or just halving it altogether as you mentioned above)?
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
Don't know yet. I'm waiting on the next edition SimC to give me a better idea of how things will pan out.
To solve the tanking dps problem of prot warrior, how do you think about 'shield spike' concept such as direct reflection damage of some percent of SB or SBar? I think current version of riposte cannot solve the dps difference problem among tankers... Because all this board users say riposte will not change our stat priorities and i agree with that... you have any idea??
annoying and wierd double posts.
Last edited by Tengenstein; 08-05-2013 at 07:13 AM.
Something doesn't have to to change stat priorities to have an affect. That said i'm undecided if it is enough, on one hand I'm only getting 9% crit come patch day, which will be 9% extra raw damage, a slight buff to ultimatum and enrage uptimes, which doesn't sound like it's enough to catch up to druids let alone monks and pallies. DKs are also getting Riposte which is granted isi goign to do more for us than it is for them, but eh. Bears are getting a huge stam bonus but no real DPS increases. Monks are getting an 18% nerf to Keg smash, which is pretty huge since its usually they're hardest hitting ability. Paladins no longer proc Grand Crusader from their rotational abilities, only from avoidance, which they avoid like the plague, and another factor is that Paladins are going to be at the 50% haste cap next patch (if they aren't already) this is probably going to have no affect on their stat priorities, they will still love haste for the extra SoI procs and SS ticks, but DPS wise it means that the only benefit will be more more white swings and a few ticks on their dots, barely any better than what we get from haste. Prot paladins are running out of DPS stats that'll improve their DPS, hits and expertise are already capped, haste is nigh capped, so they're left with avoidance or mastery, the latter providing nearly zero DPS in most cases. Monks are sorta in the same boat; they've haste capped this tier, so now they're left with crit as they're only DPS scaling defensive stat, and mastery is probably going to give them a smoother damage intake anyway.
I think that's something a lot of people have missed when looking at the 5.4 changes, Haste is losing its DPS value next tier for Monks and Pallies, they've hit plateaus with it; Pallies will still want haste or mastery neither providing much additional DPS, and Monks will want Mastery on non-trivial content, also a non DPS stat. On the other hand Warrior are about to hit they're mastery cap, and past it we will have to reforge to avoidance, which will probably force our DPS up.
Granted we could go stam, but if we need to go hard into stam, every other class will as well, cept maybe monks who will go hard into Mastery instead. This is the pitfall for riposte, they need to make avoidance strong enough that after mastery capping we go avoidance and not stam.
I've been a proponent of bringing back Damage Shield as a prot warrior ability since they removed it. In 4.0.1 and particularly since they removed the extra rage from Avatar in 5.1. Mainly because i liked watching rogues and shaman and DW frost beat themselves to death on me in PVP (I also think spell reflection needs to be retooled for the same reason) I think it should be one of our level 90 talents or potentially replace MSR as a level 75 talent.
Thank you for your kind explanation, Tengenstein. It really helps me for understanding warrior and other tankers' situations.
I also seriously enjoyed damage shield in pvp and I miss it.
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
Tweet Ghostcrawler asking if we can have it back. Since tanks aren't really welcomed in PVP any more the pvp Balance issue of it are null.
I'm going to be tweeting him at least weekly. So far no response. Give him the Andy Dufresne treatment....
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
How do you think the tank balance is going to shape up for 5.4, with all these nerfs and buffs to tanks?
As Ghostcrawler keeps re-iterating on his twitter feed, they've only just started the numbers tuning on the PTR, nothings finalised so it'd be premature of me to draw any conclusions just yet.
I think tank balance will be better than it has been in 5.3. I worried tanking will get boring. the cloak, the 2pieces, the 4 pieces, they're all really powerful, which to me says either we're gonna need them to survive, in which case those peeps that don't have them can't tank in 5.4, or we don't need them to survive in which case when we do get them we're only ever going to risk dying if someone really drops the ball.
I'm also concerned with the Taunt changes. I really dislike using taunt outside of taunt swaps. I have a loose add, i'll break its face with a shield slam instead of a taunt. If i taunt off a DPS or healer its because i'm out of options, it's the ultimate personal failure for me. I never taunt off a tank outside of taunt swap, or becuase they will die to the next melee hit. I abhor the tanks i see in LFR who use their taunts on CD, as part of their rotation even if they already have aggro, at present i find it annoying mainly because invariably they can't hold aggro against someone like me whose fairly practised at producing TPS on demand. Key term: on demand; I'm very good at sitting in the valley between over aggroing and pulling aggro. When the other tank taunts i like the fact that i have to throttle back, if they're particularly aweful i might switch to battle stance, it's team work, its control, it's not just about putting the pedal on the floor and disregarding everything else. That's going away next patch, taunts is going to supercharge you're TPS to such an extent it will be impossible to lose aggro to the other tank before your taunt comes back off CD. So if you're a good tank when the other tank taunts meh carry on as if he hadn't, no need to be careful any more, if you're a bad tank well no more problems you can spam taunt and hold aggro, even against better tanks. And the only way to counter this is to spam taunts back.
At ;least they've changed vengeance so scumbagging won't work any more.
I don't see the point in your taunt rant. If you're raiding with a guild the other tank should be good anyway and the change just makes it so you don't have to hold back on your last supercharged shield slam that has 30% crit next patch.
Taunt is just another tool in our toolbox. You use it when you need to, the assertion that "I just taunted off a DPS or healer means I'm a failure" is asinine without context. For example, when a Viscous Horror spawns in a bad place on Primordius, I'm going to jump next to the room wall, taunt the add and use my Stormbolt and Heroic Throw to ensure a speedy and save pickup.
Another situation I can think of is Horridon 4th gate, I'll be moving to avoid the totems; if a shaman jumps off a bear in that moment, I have nothing else available to pick him up because Stormbolt won't be enough to overtake the DPS who are already bursting it down.
Oh its fine when you're raiding with your guild, but my god have you been into Pugs or open raid? or hell even LFR. taunts on CD, even when they have aggro.....Yes their are point where using taunt is acceptable, using it on CD to hold aggro isn't.
I've always found this practice perplexing. What do these people do when they actually NEED that taunt? Harsh language? Tea cozy?
In my expieirence they die, or let someone else die.
Just skimming the last couple months of posts - could you elaborate on what you mean when you say that warriors will effectively be able to cap mastery in 5.4 - which value of mastery is it you think constitutes a cap?
Having just reviewed the new legendary cloaks and once again sighing at the limited value of the proc on the tanking cloak, what are your thoughts on using the dps cloak instead? Imo, I go to great lengths to gear so that I don't take killing blows... which renders the tank cloak proc worthless. I'd still get good value out of the dps cloak, especially with vengeance counting towards my attack power...
Removal of dodge and parry from equipment. Well, they've tried in the PTR changes so far to make crit have a non-zero value for tanking and that's nice. I think Matthew Rossi may have mentioned this in passing, but I think it's an idea that is overdue. I play all classes (and all tanks) and gearing the agi tanks for both dps and tanking is stupid easy - gearing str tanks for both dps and tanking is something of a pain. I am coming to feel that it's time crit and haste get a value for tanking - and dodge and parry are removed from the game as stats. Obviously mechanics changes are needed. Do you think this is an idea worth lobbying for?
I'm talking strictly about the removal of dodge/parry as stats on equipment. Logically you could say that haste is the same as dodge - if you are fast, then you are fast enough to get out of the way. Similarly with crit and parry - a crit is a blow so powerful that the subsequent response is weak and therefore easier to parry. So you could turn haste rating into dodge rating and consider a crit a proc of a very significant, very short term parry buff, perhaps with a limited number of charges (probably one).
Last, I'm curious about the crit experiment you posted about in this thread a little while back. Are we genuinely considering crit for tanking now? And in which situations? 10 man, 25 man? Heroic? Raid finder? 5 mans? Soloing?
Technically the first Mastery cap, the soft cap is 100% critical block chance. Past that additional mastery only gives additional block chance, when we don't have shield block up, which is probably not very often. On the PTR right now I have 87.54% critical block chance unbuffed with a 544 equipped ilvl, essentially a mix of my tier 14 stuff and tier 15 set bonus and a mastery trinket (the stuff Flaskantaur sells). Buffed this jumps to 98.54%, If I use a mastery elixir I'm over 100%. T15 normals are going to be dropping 553s so if I can mastery cap in at 544, I should be able to maintain it in 553s or higher.
Going off just the stats on the coaks and how we work with Riposte the Tank cloak is better DPS. The tank proc isn't worthless at all, I remember how redonkulously over powered the wrath version of ardent defender was, treat it as another CD. It should allow you to cheese a fair number of mechanics, as well as making all fights a magnitude more forgiving. That said I do recognize that if playing perfectly the cloak proc is kinda retarded, whereas the DPS cloak has a tangible benefit, however I would suspect that if enough players start doing that they'll put a a spec limitation on the cloak proc (like they have for the tank cloak) so it'll only proc when in a DPS spec.
Crit on gear functionally still has a close to zero value for tanking in 5.4, we're much better off getting crit from avoidance than crit from gear, (unless the boss doesn't actually have avoidable attacks.). If you want to a high DPS tanking build you go heavily into avoidance. It's actually rather fun. For soloing it probably will be ideal since whilst soloing we typically don't have a healer so how smooth the damage intake is isn't a factor, but total damage taken is, and even in 5.3 Avoidance are the better stats for total damage reduction.
I really don't know what they should do with tank gear. For the most part I like gear how it is, I don't really want to be rolling against DPS for gear (and I'm sure they wouldn't want one more peep to roll against), and I don't really want to homogenize stats too much, I like that some tanks get survivability from DPS stats, and other tanks get DPS from survivability stats, its pretty boring when every tank is stacking the same stats. I also don't want to be in the situation that say I end up stacking haste as prot, Crit as fury and strength as arms, that would piss me off no end, getting two sets of different gear I don't mind, but having to either re-gem every time I swap roles or get two sets of the same gear...erg. The problem as I see it is really that until 5.4 parry and dodge have been unattractive defensively and offensively but haste and crit have been to either Pallies, Bears, or Monks very attractive for both reasons. I'm really not sure avoidance is strong enough yet for Warriors or DKs (see here), but thematically I approve of riposte. I like the idea of different tanks doing different things to achieve the same goal.
EDIT: however if you feel strongly enough about it, go forth and give feedback to Blizz, I'm not a great fan of organized lobbying, but drop GC a tweet or something.
Last edited by Tengenstein; 08-12-2013 at 12:55 PM.
I know you're asking Teng, but this is actually an idea i've been rolling around in my head for quite some time. Since, when you think about it, currently, none of the tank classes LIKE their avoidance when compared to other stats. Or, at least the majority of people who play them don't like avoidance. They are looking to remedy this in 5.4. Also, I am aware that at top gear levels Warriors and DK's do end up reforging into avoidance to balance their DR ratios in some situations. But let's not get into that just yet.
Originally Posted by Krennick
Right now, I'll tell you the biggest argument against removing avoidance stats and having tanks operate purely off of crit or haste: It would put a few too many roles on one type of gear. Right now, there are no more than 3 "class-roles" per one "type" of gear. The only two exceptions to this are:
Strength/Plate with Haste/(anything but crit) for secondary stats, where you have Prot Pallies encroaching on the plate dps. Though, this isn't too bad in most situations if you take into account that DPS Warriors despise gear that doesn't have crit on it. Nevertheless with limited loot tables there are a few common BiS items. Though, I suppose we feel the full weight of this already when it comes to gear that has hit/exp + mastery, which is fair game for all 6 class-roles.
The other place we see this is with Leather Agility, where you have 2 monk roles (tank/dps), 2 Druid roles (tank/dps), and rogues to top it all off. Admittedly a Raidleader who has all 5 of those things in one raid should be shot, but lets not get into that.
All of this is doesn't even touch on cloaks, necks, rings and trinkets, where you occasionally have full blown arguments on "whether or not that trinket is useable by a healer or if it should be prioritized to dps". Grated the Dev's have gotten better at spelling it out for us to save loot masters a headache, but every now and again it still happens.
SO the conclusion I come to after that bloated lump of thinking outloud is that the loot distribution system in WoW is a complete clusterfuck and I take pity on the Developer that tries to tell the comunity it's going to get worse. This obviously SHOULDNT be a reason that hinders the decision. But honestly, it sounds right up the alley of: "We don't have the technology to do that yet, sorry."
But loot issues aside, I personally think its a great idea. I leveled a Prot Pally in Mop because I was hearing rumors about the haste build and I thought it sounded like an interesting play-style. Ended up making it my main over my warrior when my guild was just under halfway through ToT normal.
With the changes coming in 5.4 they're making it so Crit is more than just a dps increase for Warriors, which I find just as intriguing and can't wait to play with on live. (don't really like going on ptr if i don't have too, its like spoiling christmas) Granted the way they're implementing it with Riptose makes crit gearing unlikely, it still sound interesting though.
They don't even have to do to much to DK's since Haste increases rune-regen-speed and I believe Deathstrike heals can crit(correct me if I'm wrong), though I'm not entirely sure. It's been a while since I played a DK at max lvl and really dug into their mechanics. Anyway, maybe throw in a few buffs to one or both of thsoe mechanics. Or blizz could spring for a seperate new mechanic as you suggested and they're good to go.
Finally, the bigget opposition the Devs might have to this is: There are some players who are abhorently bad at playing this game, and wouldn't be able to live through anything if it weren't for avoidance stacking. Well, they woulnd't say it in those words, but you get what I'm saying. This isn't a jab at cassuals or tanks who choose avoidance builds, merely an observation. I suppose for that reason they would have to write in mechanics for some kind of passive mitigation that could be achieved through simply gearing. But writing passive avoidance into something like haste doesn't seem like a path the Devs would take.
Well, those are my thoughts on that..... that was a bit longer and more time consuming than I intended.......
Last edited by Gregasaurous; 08-12-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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