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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #481
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    I thought that was mainly to do with HS, Cleave and Rend not being normalized to weapon speed and how in MoP they're a substantially smaller part of our damage than previous expansions.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I thought that was mainly to do with HS, Cleave and Rend not being normalized to weapon speed and how in MoP they're a substantially smaller part of our damage than previous expansions.
    That is why - I was just glad we didn't have that problem in addition to AP scaling issues.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  3. #483
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    Think there's only one tanking weapon with a sub 2.6 speed anyhow.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  4. #484
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    They're trialing Rev generating 20 Rage on the PTR. Not really sure why we need this, I'm kind inkling towards it being mainly for AoE since under optimal AOE conditions we never use Devastate or have SnB procs so have a lot less offensive enrage procs. Anyhow this coupled with the enrage change is going to be a fair whack more resources to play with, not to the point that i'd ignore the hit/exp caps, but still i'm a little excited
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #485
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    I think they fear we're going to drop Revenge again in favor of SS/Dev spam due to the new enrage and ultimatum mechanics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  6. #486
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    I get the feeling we have about as much a clue what this should fix as Blizzard does.

    AoE?
    With enough mobs TC/Rev/SS/Rev is your basic rotation anyway and with that rage income, all the change does is clip more SBar.

    SS/Dev spam?
    Converting the extra Rage gain from Rev into HS you'll do more DPS than ignoring it and it gives more SBar if you really need it. Maybe there will be some new balance where Dev after SS is better, but having read recent posts/tweets, I somehow get the feeling Blizzard hasn't thought that far ahead.

    DPS?
    +5% damage on enrage would've fixed more issues all at once

    Survival/Damage reduction?
    I really don't see how a wee bit more Rage is any solution to our core problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  7. #487
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    Core problems? our AoE and single target are quite weak compared to the other tanks, and our stats are prtty uninteresting, the changes adress the first, the second not so much.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 07-09-2013 at 04:15 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #488
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    More datamined PTR stuff:
    Protection
    Revenge now generates 20 Rage in Defensive Stance, up from 15.
    Riposte now grants 75% of your Parry and Dodge as additional Critical Strike for 20 sec, up from 50%.
    Not sure if it's enough to be a full smile yet for Riposte, we'll see on PTR. Then some really fking weird glyphs. My feelings are mixed on most of these...

    Glyph of Impaling Throws (NYI) - Heroic Throw now leaves an axe in the target, which can be retrieved by moving within 0 yards of the target to reduce the cooldown of Heroic Throw by 0 sec.
    Glyph of the Executor - Killing an enemy with Execute grants you 300 rage.
    Glyph of the Raging Whirlwind - Whirlwind gives you 15 rage over 6 sec, but for that time you no longer generate rage from autoattacks.
    Glyph of the Subtle Defender - Removes the threat generation bonus from Defensive Stance.
    Glyph of the Watchful Eye (NYI) - Intervene will now target the party or raid member with the lowest health within 35 yards. If you are not in a party or raid, Intervene will automatically target an active banner.
    Glyph of the Weaponmaster (NYI) - Your Shout abilities cause the appearance of your weapon to change to that of a random weapon from your inventory for 0 sec.
    Glyph of Victorious Throw - Increases the range of Victory Rush by 15 yards.
    Some of them are damn useful/fun, others seem utterly retarded. I'm looking at you, Subtle Defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Some of them are damn useful/fun, others seem utterly retarded. I'm looking at you, Subtle Defense.
    It's for dps warriors who want to use defensive stance as a reliable damage reduction CD.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  10. #490
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    Trinkets look interesting next tier
    1. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102296 Stamina is always nice, but the on-use seems odd, are we gonna be soaking AoE's on our todd? or are bosses just gonn have a lot of frontal cones?
    2. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102297 Passive Dodge and a small DPS to HPS conversion, not really sure its going to be much use unles you're really pushing healers or have to solo something.
    3. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102306 Battlemasters are always nice for encounters that challenge EHP and the reduction on Shield Wall, Last Stand are rather powerful, it also affects Rallying Cry, Recklessness, Skull Banner and Mocking Banner
    4. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102307 Passive stamina again but Crit on use, think this is more for Bears and Monks than Plate tanks, as our crit scaling isn't all that big
    5. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102316 Passive stamian but this time paired with Dodge, much better for us Platies
    6. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102305 Whilst this is a DPS trinket, the 14% more Mastery is not to be scoffed at even with my tier15 gear that alone is enough to passively let it compete with the other secondary stat trinkets this tier, the crit damage and procced strength are bonuses.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #491
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    So i've updated my RPS calculator for 5.4 and come across a few interesting things.
    • Extra rage gains have upped our RPS by ~1.2. doesn't seem like a lot but its nearly 50% more excess rage after deducting what we need to keep Sblock Rolling.
    • All of the buffs have been a boon to the RPS value of avoidance,
    • in terms of raw RPS Hit/exp>avoidance>crit>Mastery>str
    • Crit sucks for us as it doesn't give extra Rev procs
    • Strength sucks as it doesn't get converted into crit via riposte
    I'm curious of the outcome of this. Wildly Speculating I wonder if they may push us into a more DK style of tanking with SBar, Maybe we'll burn Sblock at 120 rage and then punch Sbar if we drop Below a health threshold? maybe not, but this could really shake us up as the main selling point of Hit and Expertise is stabilising and generating RPS, allowing more SB(ar) uptime smoothing damage intake, Avoidance, always the leader in TDR, now also has a clear advantage over mastery in terms of RPS, so it has definitely gained in the smoothing department, to what extent I'm unsure. But thinking along the same logic as Paladins with regards to haste mastery; They're unlikely to die to a hit whilst they have ShotR up even if its a piddly baseline amount, so thye stack Haste to increase uptime rather than mastery to increase the Damage reduction when its up, Like wise we're unlikely to die to a string of Blocks, (even if they're not critical blocks) so maybe we should be looking to fill the gaps in Sblock Uptime with Sbar rather than increasing the size of our average block, and for that we'd want maximum RPS which would mean Avoidance rather than Mastery after Hit/Exp Caps

    Now granted ShotR and Sblock are quite different animals, warriors can easily keep Sblock up 66% of the time, Paladins need alot of Haste to reach ShotR uptimes anywhere near that high, so the paladin is open to longer hit strings than we are. Likewise Their Haste scaling is very dependable, there's no RNG component, Our Avoidance Scaling is completely RNG; It's RNG as to whether we get the avoidance in the first Place, and its RNG if the we get the Crits on SS and Dev.

    I'm getting a little bit more excited than i should.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 07-15-2013 at 09:23 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  12. #492
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    Kind of nice that all that dodge and parry on gear is now possibly worth a damn!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  13. #493
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    I've gone on the PTR and geemed mainly avoidance (hybrid stams in blue sockets), fot a couple of avoidance trinkets (2 & 5, form my earlier list), and whilst i can get myself to about 30% avoidance against boss levels, which works ut to be around 23% crit from riposte (we don't seem to get any base crit on the ptr at the moment) it has dropped my crit block to about 55% though. The DPS is rediculous, I'm having no trouble maintaining max uptime on Shield Block and Having to dump a lot of rage into Sbar just to not cap.

    It's alot of fun, big numbers everywhere, to the extent that i can't believe they'll let it go live, and if they do they'll have to nerf it very quickly.

    EDIT:its ~30% damage increase whilst questing.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 07-16-2013 at 10:47 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  14. #494
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    Have you tried using nothing but Sbar with this setup? High avoidance and low mastery both reduce the effectiveness of Sblock, and Sbar allows us to be more reactionary when countering high damage intake (which includes periods of not dodging or parrying anything).

    It would also free up a major glyph - Heavy Repercussions -> Unending Rage perhaps? In any case, I'm excited for the major damage buff alone. I'm tanking alongside a druid in 10m and tank swaps are a pain in the ass; he is asking for Pain Suppressions on Iron Qon just to reduce his threat...

  15. #495
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    I generally default to Glyphs of HR, UE & HtL. Partl becuase of how many taunt swaps, and it allows me to better pool rage for Sbarring Boss specials without potentially delaying the next SBlock. HR is still a ridiculously potent Glyph for any fight where you're being meleed ( so basically every fight excpet Lei Shi, and Council if you're the Mar'li tank)

    I'm not really seeing Sbar Spamming as being effective, even stacking avoidance, our avoidance isn't that much higher, maybe 8% higher, which i don't think is enough to affect how we play. We'd either need Sbar to scale massively better like DS's absorb does, remember it scales off damage taken, similar to vengeance, but also DKs gear via mastery, Sbar just doesn't have that scaling, furthermore we don't have a heal component to Sbar Like DS does, If a DK take a big hit , they heal some of it back, AND put up a huge shield, we can't do the heal with any regularity, and we can't put up such a large shield. Sbar just isn't the same tool for smoothing as DS is, and we just can't get enough avoidance thanks to DR to make it effective, and that's by design, when it looks like that's how we're playing they nerf Sbar.

    Thing is we now have sufficient rage that we can keep SBlock rolling and usually have sufficient Rage to use Sbar to react to spikes or proactively shield ourselves from boss specials. It's more and more not a case of Sblock or Sbar, but Sblock AND Sbar, the only times i really find myself rage starved are the GCDs directly following putting Sblock and Sbar up at once, which is probaly the time i'm least likely to die anyway.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #496
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    Are you able to model Sbar vs. Sblock in T16 gear? I don't know whether you can do it with simcraft, I've only ever done DPS sims with that.

    Sbar is already close to Sblock in terms of damage reduction on physical hits alone. High avoidance will exacerbate this. You also forgot that Sbar will heal us for 30% of the absorb with the 2p T16 set bonus.

    Additionally, please don't compare us to other tanking classes when discussing gearing and mitigation tactics. There is no need for Sbar to be as good as Death Strike as we have things they don't (25% damage reduction against everything, much better mitigation, ability to use both Sbar and Sblock against heavy hits in HC Tortos and Ji-Kun for example).

  17. #497
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    You can model it in SimCraft ... assuming you also add a healer in there to (try) and keep you alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydoria View Post
    Are you able to model Sbar vs. Sblock in T16 gear? I don't know whether you can do it with simcraft, I've only ever done DPS sims with that.
    you can't really do it with simcraft yet as it still has some bugs that need tweaking which are affecting live, and the PTR changes are not implemented yet, so I mainly stick to modelling in excell, even though it has its flaws, and trying to help iron out issues with simcraft.

    T16 gear is not really going to change much Sbar and Sblock still work in the same way and until they change that we're not going to see much change in how we use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nydoria View Post
    Sbar is already close to Sblock in terms of damage reduction on physical hits alone. High avoidance will exacerbate this. You also forgot that Sbar will heal us for 30% of the absorb with the 2p T16 set bonus.
    In terms of Total Damage Reduction Sbar has always outdone Sblock. Likewise Parry and Dodge are better stats than hit/exp/mastery at present for reducing damage taken. Few tanks actually care about Total Damage Reduction becuase it normally isn't going to affect your survivability the same way eliminating spike events will, and that is what Sblock (and hit/exp and mastery) does, it packages the damage into nice little chucks. The 2pc bonus affects Sblock as well and is proportionally the same so it isn't going to have much of an affect in changing how we spend rage. We'd need very High avoidance, probably >75% for Sbar only to work, and even then its still the chance of an unlucky hit streak owning you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nydoria View Post
    Additionally, please don't compare us to other tanking classes when discussing gearing and mitigation tactics. There is no need for Sbar to be as good as Death Strike as we have things they don't (25% damage reduction against everything, much better mitigation, ability to use both Sbar and Sblock against heavy hits in HC Tortos and Ji-Kun for example).
    You asked about only using Sbar, I'm telling you what would need to occur for it to be optimal. I'm not comparing us to DKs, and judging which is better, i'm telling you how the differences will mean we can't achieve the same results via an Absorb only Active mitigation strategy. In order for it to work, we'd need it to work like DKs, or have the above mentioned unattainably high avoidance
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #499
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    In terms of Total Damage Reduction Sbar has always outdone Sblock. Likewise Parry and Dodge are better stats than hit/exp/mastery at present for reducing damage taken. Few tanks actually care about Total Damage Reduction becuase it normally isn't going to affect your survivability the same way eliminating spike events will, and that is what Sblock (and hit/exp and mastery) does, it packages the damage into nice little chucks. The 2pc bonus affects Sblock as well and is proportionally the same so it isn't going to have much of an affect in changing how we spend rage. We'd need very High avoidance, probably >75% for Sbar only to work, and even then its still the chance of an unlucky hit streak owning you.
    Yea, that's the way warriors are gearing at the moment. I guess my whole point is that because of a number of changes in 5.4, this might change. Changes are higher ilvl and epic gems -> more of the combat table covered -> less streaks and reduced effectiveness of Sblock; avoidance -> very good dps and rage boost; legendary cloak -> chance of getting streaks and dying is mitigated for encounters that don't mandate using the passive some other way.

    Some changes compound each other, for example having more rage because of an avoidance-heavy build means more active mitigation abilities, which in turn is increased by the 2p set bonus.

    What I'm taking away from this conversation is that we can't really gauge how all this will impact warrior tanking before the patch actually hits and people get used to the new encounters. I for one will go for a heavy stamina / avoidance build while capping hit/exp as soon as 5.4 is live. It looks to be much more fun if anything.

  20. #500
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    Epic Gems? haven't seen them mentioned yet.

    EDIT: it's not really going to change warrior Tanking; we're still going to have the same ability Priority; SS>Rev>Dev, we're still going to want to keep Sblock rolling, we might see change in our stat priorities, we might not. Remember That when Theck ran his matlab analysis, he found that even if you JUST use shield block, and otherwise cap out on rage, was competitive and arguably the best way of preventing damage spikes, even with as low as 3K mastery. The excess rage (assuming we can get to 14-20rps) might be enough to allow us to not push back Sblock when we use SBar, and pushing back Sblock is generally a sure fire way to open yourself up to the spikes.

    You've got to remember that the enrage of Dev and SS crits is devalued as you add more avoidnace; more avoidance means more Rev procs, More Revs means less Devs, less Devs, less SnBs, Less SnBs less SHield Slams, meaning overall whislt avoidnace stacking will mean you're more likely to enrage when you do use Dev and SS, you're pressing those buttons less anyway.and becuase you're traded mastery out for avoidance, less boss attacks are getting to the 4th roll, and if they do less of them are critical blocks, so you lose enrage procs that way too.

    Avoidance is certainly attractive, but its not radically changing anything except maybe our stat priorities, and our DPS.

    EDIT2: No warrior should take a spike event whislt they have active mitigations up.

    SBar steady State Vengeance is 0.36*Boss Swing damage/Boss swing time. most 10n bosses unmitigated hit are about 350k and most have a 1.5s swing timer so you get about 84k Vengeance which works out to be a 151.2K SBar @60 rage. now we'll assume our 10N tank has a 73% damage reduction (from armour and Weakened blows and def stance) so the boss is actually going to hit him for 94K, or that his SBar is going to last 2 hits.

    With shield block he has it up for 4 hits and then down for 2 hits due to its CD; Block>block>block>block>hit>hit. so the same 60 rage over a 9 second period, Sbar has Absorb>absorb>Hit>hit>hit>hit. now you can argue that avoidance will benefit Sblock more than Sbar, which is probably true, however whilst going from an Absorb to an Avoid is great becuase you now absorb the next hit instead Absorb>avoid>absorb>hit>hit>hit turning a 4hit window into a 3hit window you're just as liable thanks to RNG to turn a hit in SBlocks string into an Avoid making it Block>block>block>block>avoid>hit, turning a 2hit string into a 1hit string. And if 1hit strings are dangerous to you, you need more EHP, and should probably sacrafice everyother stat to get it.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 07-19-2013 at 05:24 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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