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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #441
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    Keep in mind that I am talking about avoidance relative to mastery.
    Neither of which are reliable.

    BUT - avoidance is more likely to help you when you are vulnerable, and the magnitude of help that you get is much larger.

    I'm not suggesting either is better than mitigation cooldowns or stamina.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    I was going to write a giant wall of math, but I'll stick to this for now:Wrong!

    1. Rewrite formula
    If 1/x' = 1/c + k/x then
    1/x' = x/cx + ck/cx
    1/x' = (x + ck) / cx
    x' = cx / (x + ck)
    Note that you can also write this as c*r / (r + ckq) with r = rating and q = rating conversion rate
    This formula then also becomes correct for Armor, with a c = 1 and kq = K as most people know it.

    2. Damage comparison
    The damage that goes through is past avoidance is
    1-x' = (x + ck -cx) / (x + ck)
    Any change in pre-DR avoidance can be written as
    1-y' = (x + d + ck - cx - cd) / (x + d + ck)
    with y' = new avoidance and d = change in pre-DR avoidance
    The relative damage change is then new damage / old damage or
    (1-y') / (1-x')

    3. The Math
    (1-y') / (1-x') = [(x + d + ck - cx - cd) / (x + d + ck)] / [cx / (x + ck)]
    (1-y') / (1-x') = [(x + d + ck - cx - cd) * ( x + ck) ] / [(x + d + ck) * cx]
    (1-y') / (1-x') = [(x + dx + ckx - cx - cdx) + (ckx + cdk + ck - ckx - cdk) ] / (cx + cdx + ckx)
    (1-y') / (1-x') = [(1-c)x + (d+2ck-cd-ck)x+ck*(d+ck-cd)] / (cx + cdx + ckx)
    And no matter how you rewrite that, you can never remove x as a variable, thus there is no fixed value of damage reduction per d.
    This could also be seen from step 1, where the formula is extremely similar to the armor formula, of which we know it is not lineair with relative damage reduction.
    In fact, the only stat I ever know to scale as you say is Resilience, because it worked as x' = 1 - a^(k*x)
    But the problem with this formula is that it is relatively demanding of server calculations, due to the power part.

    4. Extra info
    * This is all without actually considering base avoidance, which is not part of the DR formula, but counts towards your efficiency. And as different races have different base dodge/parry, it would simply never be equal for all classes, no matter how you write this out.
    * x' = x when c / (x + ck) = 1, or c = x + ck. Write as x = c - ck = (1-k)c. For Parry this is 10.436% from Strength/rating a,d for dodge this is 3.99% or resp. 9236 parry rating (str conversion included) and 3530 dodge rating . Anything below that and you will actually gain more dodge/parry chance than you have pre-DR!
    TL;DR
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    TL;DR
    Avoidance has DR even when considering relative power, similar to Armor has in the last 8 years.
    Low rating levels actually give more post-DR than pre-DR.
    I meh on Avoidance as a damage reduction metric
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  4. #444
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    Post removed because it was so very wrong.
    Last edited by Frozen Gnome; 06-23-2013 at 05:52 PM.

  5. #445
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    Values for k and c are kinda off.

    EDIT: and, ignoring crit, that stat priority is only true for damage smoothing, the TDR priority is kinda the reverse; Avoidance>mastery>Hit=expertise
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 06-20-2013 at 07:17 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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  6. #446
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    Values for K and C are taken from:
    http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/09/14/avoidance-diminishing-returns-in-mop-followup/

    W
    hich is replicated (cannot verify independence) additionally:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859

    If you have additional insight into the values given, please share. I am all for a debate on this, but this is just getting a little bit crazy.

    edit:
    For the sake of completeness, yes the priority given above is for smoothness and what I use for general gearing with stamina moving on a week by week basis. If you were to gear for pure TDR everything changes.
    Last edited by Frozen Gnome; 06-20-2013 at 07:37 PM. Reason: see note

  7. #447
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    Fair enough, havent veiwed that page since the beta
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #448
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    1. You switch from 5.01 to 3.01 base avoidance (I think, dunno why else you'ld be using 96.99)
    2. 1/(a/b) = b/a Try to keep it simple (hence I use cx/(x+ck) because it's let's prone to errors when flipping than 1/c + k/x)
    3. I can't see any y values except the one you printed, but it shows me that you made an error. The formula should be 1-(everything), not divide. This should give you a far higher resolution, showing you what the actual reduction is.
    4. Made a spreadsheet to show you it's not as you say it is: Avoidance Math.zip
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  9. #449
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    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #450
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    1) I like my format just the way it is thank you. I prefer to have x referenced once as opposed to twice. As you know well, the values calculate identically.


    2) You are right in that I did have a lovely error on my dodge base, it is 5.01. As an FYI your parry base is wrong, as it is actually 3.21%


    3) My error, and this is that awkward moment when you realize you were wrong on the internet, was in my relative reduction equation. I had put forward:
    r=1/(d(x)/d(x-1))
    when in fact it should have been
    r=1-(d(x)/d(x-1))


    I took my wrongness to a bit of an extreme as I went and plotted total avoidance at the ideal breakdown of parry and dodge. I now need to decide if I want to get a name change, or clean it up for informations sake.
    Last edited by Frozen Gnome; 06-22-2013 at 01:47 PM.

  11. #451
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    Everyone makes mistakes.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  12. #452
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    • Blood and Thunder now also increases the damage of Thunder Clap by 50%.
    • Enrage now also triggers on critical hits from Devastate and Shield Slam.
    • Hamstring is no longer on a global cooldown.
    • Riposte is a new passive ability learned at level 76. When the Warrior dodges or parries any attack, they gain 50% of their Parry and Dodge as an additional bonus to Critical Strike for 20 seconds.
    • Shattering Throw no longer costs rage.
    • Shield Wall no longer requires a shield. If the Warrior does not have a shield equipped, it will show a visual of an equipped shield.
    • Spell Reflection no longer requires a shield. If the Warrior does not have a shield equipped, it will show a visual of an equipped shield.
    • Enraged Regeneration now instantly heals the warrior for 10% of their total health (up from 5%), and an additional 10% over 5 seconds (up from 5%).
    • Impending Victory now heals the Warrior for 20% of their maximum health at all times (up from 15% on attack and 20% on kills that yield experience or honor).
    • Storm Bolt now also has an off-hand attack for Fury Warriors.
    • Vigilance no longer transfers damage to the Warrior. The talent now reduces amount of damage the target takes by 30% for 12 seconds.
    • Warbringer now roots the target for 4 seconds instead of stunning them for 3 seconds. The 50% reduction to movement speed snare effect for 8 seconds remains unchanged. Glyph of Blitz will now cause Warbringer to root an additional 2 nearby targets.
    • Ultimatum now activates from critical hits with Shield Slam instead of a flat 20% chance, and the ability will make the next Heroic Strike or Cleave be a critical hit in addition to costing no Rage.
    Massive AoE buffs for prot, Raid buffed and with aggro we're gonna be sitting on >20% crit so ultimatums gonna proc alot more often, and the BnT change is just mind blowingly awesome. I'm hoping they move riposte to prot only as I can see it getting nerfed becuase of PVP (like all our best toys) as DPS warriors will pop DBTS to auto proc riposte and then come out of it with recklessness and riposte up for insane burst. and with Hamstring being off the GCD and improved self helaing and no longer needing shiedls for defensive CDs, Arms and Fury are getting some major PVP buffs
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 06-22-2013 at 06:54 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #453
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    "Shattering Throw no longer costs rage."

    Well that will making the initial pull a lot simpler.
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  14. #454
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    "Ultimatum now activates from critical hits with Shield Slam instead of a flat 20% chance"

    I don't think the guy that wrote that plays a Protection Warrior. It's currently a flat 30% chance. Coincidently, with raid buff and ~6k avoidance on gear (& ~12k Strength) you're looking at a crit chance while tanking of .... ~20%. It's still an overall DPS increase assuming you are tanking and when you're not ... atleast you don't take damage from Vigilance


    I'ld also like to mention that if you take into account the SBar absorb loss from Rage, IV is closer to ~12% of your max HP while tanking(and only using it right before SS, with it being worth half that right after SS. It goes up to ~15% effective heal if you take it off the GCD, which I think would definately be a QoL change and making it more competitive to the other talents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    "Ultimatum now activates from critical hits with Shield Slam instead of a flat 20% chance"

    I don't think the guy that wrote that plays a Protection Warrior. It's currently a flat 30% chance. Coincidently, with raid buff and ~6k avoidance on gear (& ~12k Strength) you're looking at a crit chance while tanking of .... ~20%. It's still an overall DPS increase assuming you are tanking and when you're not ... atleast you don't take damage from Vigilance


    I'ld also like to mention that if you take into account the SBar absorb loss from Rage, IV is closer to ~12% of your max HP while tanking(and only using it right before SS, with it being worth half that right after SS. It goes up to ~15% effective heal if you take it off the GCD, which I think would definately be a QoL change and making it more competitive to the other talents.
    Are you including the crit from Riposte? That should push up our crit chance well tanking quite a bit. With a 20 second duration I don't imagine it'll be falling off much.
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  16. #456
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    Effective Crit chance with Riposte will be just over 20% for most tanks. This includes the level difference reduction when attacking bosses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  17. #457
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    Ok, so here is the cleaned up version of what I did to make sure I was wrong.


    It graphs the avoidance needed, assuming you have the perfect amount of dodge for parry, to achieve a 1% reduction in damage taken based on the total avoidance shown on your char sheet. It also takes into account the bosses 5% miss chance and the avoidance supression you face against boss level mobs.

    It doesn't take into account rage from revenge, but that wouldn't help me anyways and would require a sim.

  18. #458
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    Um, didn't MoP change up how NPC level advantage affects hit so boss effectively no longer miss with melee attacks? kinda making the hit cap for same level attacks 3% and each level difference +/- 1.5%, thus why we now need to 7.5% hit boss level mobs (3+(1.5%*3) and why they changed the NElf racial from 2% Miss to Dodge?

    EDIT: What value of suppresion did you use for your graph?
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 06-22-2013 at 04:48 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #459
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    Something like 1.5-2% suppression per level advantage IIRC

  20. #460
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    I didn't think it was 2%, thought it was 1.5% for dodge, parry, hit and 1% for crit.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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