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Thread: Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

  1. #401
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    str is pretty much meaningless, because of how vengence works, a tank's dps almost never relies on strength. Now strength does get parry, but straight parry rating is more (and dodge rating too, which is also red), so... avoidance/mastery(or stam) and exp/mastery(or stam) are both far better options than stam/str or str/mastery.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  2. #402
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    I ask because I came across this:

    "Strength gives a large amount of parry now. Using a Fine/Guardian's instead of a Skillful/Sovereign give you about 80 more parry rating per gem, which is on the order of .01% extra chance to parry. That is... completely underwhelming. Although AP from strength doesn't contribute to SBar on its own, the 5% extra AP from strength given by our Battle Shout does contribute to SBar. Per gem, we get about 32 extra damage reduction on a 60 rage SBar while also getting a very comparative amount of parry. In the end, the difference lies in its effect upon your damage output. Parry rating gives you nothing, strength gives you a little bit more. Is the difference world-ending? Nope, but the greater benefit across the board will come from the strength gems."

    Is this math just incorrect? I assume the dancing steel versus rivers song question is similar.

  3. #403
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    You need to get expertise capped. It's non-negotiable, no matter how you gear if you're gearing for tanking you need the expertise cap. If you're going for a mastery build this means that if you don't use exp or exp mastery in red sockets, you still need to find the expertise rating elsewhere. so if you gem expertise in red sockets you usually reforge more mastery from your gear, whereas if you gem str, you need to reforge more expertise from your gear and so end up with less total mastery. Stamina stacking is going to want to reforge the same way; They'd rather reforge mastery than parry, but still need the expertise cap, so gemming anything but exp/stam means they have to reforge more expertise, meing they cna't reforge as much mastery.

    Strength gems have half as much Primary stat as they do Secondary stat so we only get 80str from hybrid gems, Strength does double as Parry rating and AP, which sort of makes up for it, but not really as Sbar's absorb value is not affected by AP from strength (only AP from vengeance), so you might as well just gem Parry/x in red slots, though the value of Parry rating isn't exactly great in comparison to mastery, given it's diminishing returns and lacklustre damage smoothing, unless you never use Sblock, in which case its probably your best secondary stat.

    EDIT: the math isn't incorrect at all. its just when your average Sbar is over 100k and you're health pool is over 600K, 32 is comparatively rather small.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 05-30-2013 at 08:01 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  4. #404
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    You're preaching to the choir with me, I'm just trying to understand why it's a bad idea. The argument for str versus parry that the guy is going through great pains to reach a conclusion on seems to flat out ignore expertise as an option. It just seems bizarre to cite less than 500 damage total (presuming all str gems) per barrier as any kind benefit at all, even WITH his disclaimer. I'm also not clear on what he means with respect to base ap versus battle shout and how a value of 5% got in there.Aggathon, teng, thoughts on dancing steel? I can't see how it would be useful except in perhaps challenge modes, where vengeance might be relatively lower.

  5. #405
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    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide

    On tapatalk, so my question is what's a good tanking enchant for your weapon? I have colossus right now, but I'm thinking dancing steel is better, and riversong is just meh...maybe wind song?

  6. #406
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    All of the tanking enchants are pretty "meh". I use dancing steel primarily because I'm mainspec fury and my tanking weapon used to be a fury weapon and I didn't want to re-enchant it because I'm cheap about my offspec...

    Also it's decent, it gives you enough parry that it's not worthless and you can do a bit more damage (though again, sbar is only affected by Vengeance, not strength's AP).

    I actually used to use the expertise weapon chain until I was well capped. But it's so little expertise that dancing steel or riversong are both better.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  7. #407
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    In terms of raw Survivability
    1. River's Song
    2. Dancing Steel
    3. Living Steel Weapon Chain
    4. Colossus
    5. Windsong

    Now there are a few caveats to this, Firstly that whilst River's Song is the greatest in defence, Dancing Steel has a few things that make it a viable alternative, firstly it overs a small DPS boost, if you're parry dodge ratio is heavy on Dodge side you may end up getting more total avoidance using Dancing Steel, and it allows you to re-purpose Tanking weapons to SMF weapons without re-enchanting.

    In regards to Windsong only the mastery buff matters to us and whilst the Crit is nice for DPS, the Haste is nigh on worthless to us. given the uptime it works out to be the static equivalent of about 200 rating. and TBH given that the Weapon chain is a static 200 expertise I'd rather have that so I can get a static 200 mastery elsewhere than hope RNG favours me and I get a mastery buff.

    Colossus is a bit of wild card since its the only enchant that directly works against magic, however its an 8k bubble, which is friking tiny and it doesn't scale with content SO unlike the two expensive enchants, its actually better the weaker the content you're doing, for scenario's its probably the best enchant going but for 25man HC its pretty much bubkis as boss whiteswings are approaching 235k DPS.

    I personally would go fore either Dancing Steel or River's Song, they're close enough in value that for me that it doesn't really matter and will come down to other factors, and even then it's still not like one becomes terrible. If you're an engineer or SMF off spec Dancing steel is probably slightly more attractive than if you're TG/Arms offspec.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #408
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    Hi,

    If it means anything, this is likely the best prot warrior guide out there in terms of being mathematically sound but a few things have been bugging me. I tried writing my own guide a while back, it didn’t go over well. I know how annoying it can be to have people nitpick. I tried writing my own guide a while back, it didn’t go over well. That said, I’m going to nitpick.

    1. You don’t include the sha armor kit on your hands enchant list. It is one of the more budget efficient locations to get stamina. It has a 0.88 stamina to secondary ratio. Gems only provide stamina at a 0.75 stamina to secondary stat ratio.

    2. While you do touch on the parry/dodge DR , the current gear levels tends to make it so that dodge>parry almost universally and you repeatedly have parry>dodge stated in the guide. I have not been at a parry>dodge level this tier. Many people eyeball charsheet values and not from gear values, likely because they are confused by or too lazy to use math.

    The reason for this is that parry comes from strength, which is on every piece of gear. This shoots the parry side of the equation up before we even get to dodge versus parry rating. There are two macros you can run to easily see this in game if you don’t believe me. Note, the base parry and base dodge levels are for a gnome.

    /run d=GetDodgeChance() p=GetParryChance() cp=237.186 cd=90.6425 bp=3.21 bd=5.01 x=bp+cp/cd*(d-bd); if (x > p) then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("More parry"); else DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("More dodge") end

    /run d=GetDodgeChance() p=GetParryChance() cp=237.186 cd=90.6425 bp=3.21 bd=5.01 x=bp+cp/cd*(d-bd) DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",x))

    3. You don’t include the sbar formula, and leave the AP contribution vague. Currently barrier is for 2.5x your stamina or 1.8x your attack power that does not come from strength (i.e. Vengance + AP buff). This is, of course, at 60 rage and it has linear, per rage, scaling from 20 to 60.

    MAX(1.8*(AP-Str*2), 2*Stam)

    4. While I don’t advise it for other reasons, it should be noted that shield barrier does provide a greater damage reduction than shield block at significant cost to smoothness and damage output even in purely physical encounters. Actually, this point turns into a primarily mathematical debate as block is still better in most cases.

    This guide really is good, and I restate that because I know I can come off as a nerdy jerk.
    Last edited by Frozen Gnome; 05-31-2013 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Grammar

  9. #409
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    Nothing worng with nerdy jerks, being one myself. you're quite right on all accounts.

    The armour kit flew straight under my radar on the beta, and i never went back to add it after professions where finalized.

    At one point the avoidance section was a lot more mathy and in depth, and had a macro very similar to one you've provided to which printed out how far off your ideal ratio you where, And after Airowird releases his MoP spreadsheet it wasn't really neccesary to include in the guide and ultimately felt it took away form the guide as anyone who could really understand the math wouldn't be looking for an internet guide and spending such a large section on the guide didn't really convey to anyone who couldn't understand the math that avoidance generally are after thought stats, reforge fodder, and whilst yes there is a perfect balancing point, more often its worth ignoring the balance if you can get more mastery/hit/exp than you could perfectly balancing Dodge and Parry. I'll try to clean it up. Glossing over Sbar is much the same deal, if I write a guide and say Hit for Hit Sbar stops more damage Joe Casual will read that and form the conclusion that he should use Sbar over Sblock, which is generally the wrong thing to do, whereas the more experienced warrior, who doesn't really need the guide knows that TDR for the most part is crap metric for tank survivability and will (like you have) reach the right conclusion as to what he should be using.

    I'm fairly mathy myself, but most people aren't, and don't want to be, if they see an equation, they'll skip over it and when i set out to write the guide i specifically tried to cut down on the math as much as possible to open it up to a wider audience, and this did mean that the guide loses some of its nuances and specifics, but for the most part you don't need to know those to be a decent tank.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  10. #410
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    5.4 Warrior PTR Changes

    MMO-C's data mined some stuff off the latest PTR, which could be kinda interesting for Prot warriors. As this is on the PTR all things are subject to change.

    First off here's an iteration of our T16 set bonus
    I really like the 2 peice, it's doesn't appear to be very powerful, if we block a 100k hit we get a 9k heal, and 18K on a crit block, however thats stats being very significant considering that crit blocking that 100k hit turns it into a 40k hit and we then heal 18k back, so we're only tanking 22k Damage. It could have some very funky behaviour with external absorbs (PW:S, Spirit Shell, Illuminated Healing, etc) as we block before damage is applied to the absorb, so it may be a case of that as long as someone is shielding us well be able to pick ourselves up after a spike with Shield Block. Of course its all gonna be a bit wasted if healers keep their shields rolling on us in the first place.

    The 4 piece I'm not so sure about, if the rage gain is essentially the same formula as zerker stance's rage from damage its gonna be faily weak, with 1% hp=1 rage. I really hope its a little bit better than that, and really hope it includes damage absorbed. I'd hate for us to back in that place where we don't get rage because the disco is doing his job.

    Warrior
    • Enrage Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst and Colossus Smash Colossus Smash, Devastate, and Shield Slam critical strikes and critical blocks Enrage you, generating 10 Rage and increasing physical damage done by 10% for 6 sec.
    • Impending Victory (Fury, Protection) Instantly attack the target causing [ 1,246 + 56% of AP ] damage and healing you for 15% of your maximum health. 30% of your maximum health.
    • Intimidating Shout Causes the targeted enemy to cower in fear, and up to 5 additional enemies within 8 0 yards to flee. Lasts 8 sec. 8 yd range. Instant. 1.5 min cooldown.
    • Shattering Throw 25 Rage.

    Talents
    • Bladestorm 1.5 min cooldown. 60 sec cooldown.
    • Enraged Regeneration Instantly heals you for 5% 10% of your total health, and an additional 5% 10% over 5 sec. Can be used while stunned. Effects are doubled if used while Enraged. Warrior - LvL 30 Talent. Instant. 60 sec cooldown.
    • Impending Victory (Arms) Instantly attack the target causing [ 1,558 + 70% of AP ] damage and healing you for 15% of your maximum health. 30% of your maximum health.
    • Impending Victory (Fury, Protection) Instantly attack the target causing [ 1,246 + 56% of AP ] damage and healing you for 15% of your maximum health. 30% of your maximum health.
    • Storm Bolt Hurl your weapon at an enemy, causing 125% weapon damage and stunning the target for 3 sec. Deals an additional 375% 500% weapon damage to targets that are permanently immune to stuns. Requires Melee Weapon. Warrior - LvL 90 Talent. 30 yd range. Instant. 30 sec cooldown.
    • Vigilance Focus your protective gaze on a party or raid member, transferring 30% of damage taken to you reducing their damage taken by 30% for 12 sec. During the duration of Vigilance, your Taunt has no cooldown. Warrior - LvL 75 Talent. 40 yd range. Instant. 2 min cooldown.
    • Warbringer Your Charge also knocks pins a target to the ground, stunning it for 3 rooting it for 4 sec and reducing movement speed by 50% for 15 sec. Warrior - LvL 15 Talent.
    SS and Dev crits enraging us is a nod towards the problem that prot doesn't scale with may stats. I doubt it's enough to get us stacking crit, but at least on fights like lei shi where we can't enrage due to not having anything to critically block we won't be quite so gimped. It's also means that Recklessness is now a quasi-defensive/RPS CD. I am kinda concerned that Revenge isn't able to enrage us on the plus side the gap in RPS between getting lucky with avoidance and not is going to be a lot smaller, but on the other hand Rev's not gonna feel so great any more.

    Looks like they're buffing IV and ER again, IV might start bordering on ridiculous if you glyph it. Guess far to many of us are still speccing Second Wind. I kinda expect them to either nerf SW or nerf/remove the Glyph of VR functionality from IV. A 45% heal every 30 seconds just seems excessive.

    Their taking the rage cast of Shattering Throw is an overdue change, pity they haven't removed the cast time or at least let us Dodge/Block/Parry whilst casting it.

    Bladestorm being knocked down a to a 60s CD might at least make it competitive with dragon roar on multi target fights,but i still can't see it being a staple of prot warrior specs. Likewise with Stormbolt's damage against non-stunnable mobs, I'm just not sure its enough to make it worth taking.The upgrade from Damage Transfer to Damage Reduction for vigilance is very nice, but i'm still not sure i'd rather Safeguard, its a smaller Damage reduction but its available much more often

    TBH almost everything is a step in the right direction.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #411
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    When should we be using slam as prot?

  12. #412
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    Use shield slam on cooldown, it's probably your most important button. I don't think prot even gets slam any more... that's arms only now, right?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #413
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    The glyph only increases IV following a killing blow, so it should have no effect on this change. I will do some math once we are a bit farther into this PTR, but I suspect enraged regen will still be superior to it as long as it is rage free and off the GCD.

    The issue with IV is always going to be the rage cost, both in ability use and lack rage generating GCD. This means that you need to account for rage not spent on a shield barrier when evaluating it.

    What I am really excited about is the critical hits generating rage. Once again it will require some sims to establish how it affects survivability, but it should address the issue of warriors being resource capped since T14 while other classes continue to increase resource generation. At a bare minimum it will be an interesting trade off. In a best case scenario, it will rank ahead of parry/dodge in damage smoothing. The bigger question is how it will interact with the ICD from critical block enrages, until we know that any math is premature if you ask me.

  14. #414
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    I'm not sure what you mean by resource capped.

    I doubt we'll stack crit, even assuming it doesn't share the 3s enrage ICD form crit blocks (if it does it's retarded), and here's why it takes ~600 rating to increase critical strike by 1%, it takes only ~320 rating to increase expertise/hit by 1% so we;ll have to give up twice as much connectivity to gain some crit, for shield slam we're adding a +1% chance to increase the rage produced by 10 at the cost of twice the increase in the chance to decrease the rage produced by 20. it just doesn't work add up for shield slam. I guess it won't work out for devastate either as if dev doesn't connect it can't proc SnB, and whilst that's not quite such a big deal its a big enough deal. so we'd have to start dropping Mastery or stam, and i don't see it as viable for stam, unless its gratuitous stam, you stack stam because you need stam to survive the bigger hits in 25HC, and mastery just scales better than crit, like hit/exp we still get higher percentage per rating from mastery, and whilst rage from crit block does have an ICD, blocking in and of itself is a damage reduction as well as being rage gain, crit is just rage gain.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  15. #415
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    I could have phrased that better. Since T14 being hit/expertise capped has been realistic for warriors. At this point, our rage gain is effectively capped. Yes there are critical block enrages and revenge activations but these are fairly small in the grand scheme of rage generation and diminish rather quickly.

    I don't think anyone thinks crit will overtake hit/expertise, but there are two realistic possibilities that will see us having intentional crit for progression:

    Hit/Expertise> Mastery> Crit > Parry/Dodge
    and
    Hit/Expertise> Crit> Mastery> Parry/Dodge

    Assuming shield block use, the former is by far the more likely option unless you are sacrificing survivability for dps. This means that if you have an item that has mastery and dodge on it, and you are otherwise hit/expertise capped that you would reforge the dodge to crit.

    Once the icd issue has been clarified, and sims appropriately updated, the numbers can be run. I am hesitant to do napkin math on this one because avoidance works for both total damage reduction and for triggering revenge.

  16. #416
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    I really really really Doubt it will beat out mastery, maybe in temrs of rawr RPS, but in terms of TDR and damage smoothing, its just not doing enough things really.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #417
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    It’s slow at work today.

    Ripping from one of my logs ~60% of gcds being shield slam of devastate is a realistic approximation, although a wee bit generous for the sake of lazy math. This means ~24 chances to proc per minute. At 600 rating to 1% crit and 10 rage per crit, this means 600 rating will increase rage generation on average by 2.4 rage per minute.

    To put this into a more realistic rating range, one smooth sun’s radiance (320 rating) will increase rage generation by 1.28 RPM. 1.28 rage equates into 0.0384% of your vengeance stack as a barrier, which should represent 0.0128% controlled damage reduction in a 0 tank swap scenario. In a 50/50 tanks swap scenario things get muddy with rage capping. This is not advocating gemming crit, but just an arbitrary example.

    For comparison, 320 mastery is 1.1738% chance to critically block. In a best case scenario tank swaps allow for 100% shield block uptime with all damage being blockable, meaning it provides a maximum 0.0304% damage reduction alone + 0.011738 rage per boss swing when outside of the ICD. It decreases in value as shield block uptime drops and unavoidable damage goes out. It needs modeling, but it is incredibly unlikely that crit will overtake mastery before the 100% critical block chance cap. If I were to guess, its weight would be roughly half that of mastery under ideal conditions. In a magic heavy, shield barrier> block, fight, it could conceivably pull ahead.

    The tricky part is comparing avoidance because then you need to model the boss swing timer, avoidance levels, unavoidable attacks, and revenge mucnching. Which is a shame, because that is the interesting comparison. What we do know from existing work is that avoidance provides greater TDR than mastery at a cost of control.

    TLDR:
    Initial math indicates that crit will provide a controlled damage reduction that is less than that of mastery by a fair sized chunk. If you are a member of the “avoidance is useless” club then it is a good way to increase dps and control. If you can't block anything then it would obviously beat out mastery and avoidance.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Use shield slam on cooldown, it's probably your most important button. I don't think prot even gets slam any more... that's arms only now, right?
    i thought the patch notes suggested that slam was returning to prot. (Didn't mean ss)

  19. #419
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    Hi Tengenstein and fellow Portection warriors, long time follower of this thread and I have got a few question about the current state of warrior tanking.First off, here's my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../simpleI'm hit and expertised capped, currently tanking 2/13H and have been stacking mastery up to 54%. I was wondering if that is an acceptable %? My parry is currently at 25%, I have swapped around stacking mastery > parry or parry> mastery and they both feel roughly the same to me, except putting parry at 30% rating makes my fingers go numb from smashing revenge lol. Should I aim to pump more mastery ?Reason I'm asking is I'm having trouble holding aggro on horridon adds since our pally is 1 tanking horridon.

  20. #420
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    Got any logs?

    The difference in average revenge CD between 25 and 30% avoidance is about half a second so you're not statistically gonna see that many more or less revenge procs when tanking single targets however on horridon becuase you're tanking so many targets anyway you're gonna get a lot of revenge procs, the reason you don't feel very much different is because when taking from parry to mastery while you do lose some procs you gain Enrage uptime. The only cap for mastery is 100% crit block, its not something we're liable to reach this tier, but really when it comes to mastery we want more. So yes you should pump more stats into mastery.

    Quite frankly your toon is a mess. Your using the wrong meta, you're reforging hit and expertise into mastery and then mastery back into hit and expertise, and are even reforging Dodge into crit on one piece, you're gemming strength and parry which is kinda silly, and even gemming hit in blues which is odd as apart from trinkets gemming is the only place to get more stam.

    you want to get hit capped from reforging gear, then you want to try and get expertise capped from reforging gear. you'll probably be under the cap, but thats good as you want to use expertise hybrid gems to hit any red socket bonuses you want. at this point depending on how you feel about your healthpool you can either gem heavy stam, or gem heavy mastery; for stam stacking you'll want pure stam in blue sockets and stam mastery in yellow (with exp stam in reds), and for Mastery stacking Pure mastery in yellows, stam mastery in blues (with exp mastery in reds). Mastery stacking is higher DPS than stam stacking but stam is much more forgiving of player error.

    As to maximizing AoE DPS take Avatar as a final tier talent choice, whilst Blood bath will be up much more often it doesn't add anywhere near the front loaded threat that Avatar does and avatar if timed properly is available at the start of the 1st and somewhere in the middle of the 2nd door and then again for the fourth door. I'd also take shockwave rather than dragonroar as its fairly easy to keep it on a 20s Cd and adds another often available AoE tool to help pickup.

    without logs i can't get an accurate picture of what you're doing so can't really offer much more advice.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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