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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Can MoP save WoW?

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Can MoP save WoW?

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  2. #2
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    Nice Monty Python reference for opener lol

  3. #3
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    I get this sense that you really did not like Cataclysm all that much, Lore. I know that if I ever set foot back in Dragonsoul, I will probably jump off of something tall :P

    That said, MoP looks amazing. The land, the plethora of things to do (and let's face it, archaeology was a snoozefest) as well as a very large raid tier make this very exciting.

    But, I was excited for what Cataclysm was going to do as well, so we will see.

  4. #4
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    Still don't get how the idea of 'having to progress through prior raids' is any different or will cause any fewer problems than the issues in BC and the more substantial issues EQ faced. If you need Mogushan vault gear for whatever the next intra-tier zone is, that really isn't any different from needing a previous tier to go to the next one. If you want to replace someone in your post-Mogushan guild you are still going to be faced with the issue of having to either recruit a post-Mogushan player or have your raid team return to Mogushan.

    The only way this coud be ameliorated is by moving older raids into x-realm raiding such that any potential recruit can just pug the previous intra-tier zones. Otherwise, from the perspective of the recruit, they are either going to need to be run through by the guild recruiting them (the problem you keep referencing) or they will have to find another organized group (which, if they had in the first place, they wouldn't be looking for a guild).

  5. #5
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    I think a lot of people will be disappointed if they think RF will bring back the tier by tier progression system.

    Given that the majority will be on the main progression curve (especially so as we have RF now...), the pool of alts and new players queuing for the lower tiers will be a lot smaller than the pool of mains queueing for the current tier. Expect queues to be much longer in the older tiers than you experience now in DS.

    Even queues for the current tier would be worse than we experience now in DS as there will be less alts there in the queue pool as they have to slowly climb their way up the RNG ladder.

    I expect this will be made worse by less people bothering to gear up alts if they are forced to play RNG russian roulette for weeks or months on end in the old raids when all they wanted to do was rapidly get their alt up to the current tier as they do now - in many cases to replace their main rather than supplement it.

    Heck I don't care as I play healers and would get instant queues if I bother (which I probably won't now - thereby exacerbating the problem) but for DPS I can see some horrendous queue times.

    I am also concerned with how 5 mans are handled. 5 mans are more popular than raids. Aren't we getting new tiers of 5 mans?!? I believe we need them if we are to see a bounce back in subs. If we have new 5 mans they must drop better gear than the previous tier of 5 mans or players won't use them....but that now gives players the choice to fast track and avoid the earlier raid tiers....

    What do the players do when given that choice.....same as they do now - skip!

  6. #6
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    Iirc, it was only ToC and the 3 ICC based 5 mans that dropped gear higher than the rest of Wrath's dungeons and the ICC heroic dungeon gear was only the quality of Ulduar 25 keepers bosses. The bigger problem with the gear progression in Wrath and Cataclysm to an extent, was the availability of tier items for VP, something which won't be available in MoP. The dungeons in Cataclysm did offer mid tier/previous tier ilvl gear also, which made the previous tier insignificant - a much bigger problem than it could have been imo.

    In Wrath, I didn't have any problems raiding every tier or raiding every night, except Naxx, for fun, mounts, helping guildies or whatever. In cataclysm, I did and I don't really know why. Probably the fact that, even though T11 had 13 bosses, each instance was tiny and we were soon steered into the "raid on reset day, clear raid and log off until next reset day" mentality when T12 and T13 were launched.

    In Mop, there are several reps you will need to get to revered in order to get raid quality gear, the big difference is that you would need 26 weeks or so to gear all of your slots in rep gear as they currently cost 1750VP ea. and the cap on VP is (in beta) 1000VP/w.

    I really hope they keep the heroic dungeon gear as close to pre T14 levels as possible, regardless of future patches, which should add to the longevity of the content overall.

    I disagree that the amount of mains going into RF as the expansion goes on is a problem, from my experience RF is as busy as it was on day 1 and there is no way in hell that ~90% of the characters involved in it are mains...

    I think that if people have to, they will queue up for things which are designed for their item level, whether that be 5 mans or RF content. At the rate RF gearing goes for most people, they will graduate to the next tier in a few weeks (as opposed to a day farming HC's like we can now) which can only be a good thing.

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    They will NEVER make old content NEED to be run on alts/freshly dinged toons. That would mean they need to stop coming out with 5 mans (with epic drops) as well as stop coming out with new crafted recipes each tier. That is the ONLY way they could keep old content relevant.

    I do totally wish they would stop giving epics out in 5-mans, especially if they plan on continuing with the dumbed-down LFR raids. You just cannot drop epics in 5-mans that are on par/better than previous tiers while still expecting/hoping/praying older tiers remain relevant.

    I'm "ok" with having 5-10 boss tiers as long as it's not 1 raid with 5-10 bosses, I hope they make 2+ instances if they are going to cut corners with the content.

    The one thing I'm really curious on is the "end" raid. I've heard people say it's going to happen in Org? I mean is it going to be ToC style faction champs in the sense of horde will fight alliance "versions" of the bosses, or is it going to be more-so a "hey this guy, used to be in your faction and no turned on you, kill him"?
    Last edited by Pugtor; 08-08-2012 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorfurd View Post
    I disagree that the amount of mains going into RF as the expansion goes on is a problem, from my experience RF is as busy as it was on day 1 and there is no way in hell that ~90% of the characters involved in it are mains...
    Pretty much 95% of the players in LFR after the first 2 weeks were there for nothing more than e-peen flexing and trolling people, myself included.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorfurd View Post

    I disagree that the amount of mains going into RF as the expansion goes on is a problem, from my experience RF is as busy as it was on day 1 and there is no way in hell that ~90% of the characters involved in it are mains...
    I don't think you understand or I didn't explain it properly.

    They key to queue times are the pool size in relation to the group size. The pool size depends on a number of factors. If everyone (all mains and alts) can only use one tier in RF as we have now then you have a big pool and it runs smoothly. If as in DF players can spam it multiple times per day it also runs more smoothly.

    RF is different to DF. Not least because you can only run it once per week per toon (for gear) and you need 25 people. The implications of that should be obvious...

    When 4.3 hit you pretty much had everyone in the queue pool. Mains and alts. You even point out yourself that a large number are alts.

    In MOP the majority of people will level cap their main during the first tier and run each tier when it is the current active tier. When they get to the final tier it will be like the situation we have now with DS (mains only having one viable RF tier)...BUT...there will be less alts running there. Alts will be spread out across different tiers and many people will be deterred from gearing up alts as they won't want to re-run those old tiers. With a weekly lockout on GEAR in RF they won't be gearing up alts rapidly via DF which will drag out the process, spread people out more and also put people off running at all.

    So expect queues for the final MOP tier to be longer than they are for DS as it will be smaller than the pool we have now (less alts).


    For people running the older (not current) tier(s) the situation gets worse. The huge wave of mains will all advance on the main progression curve. Once T15 is released those main toons will run T15 RF and won't return to T14. This means that T14 RF will have to survive on the numbers of alts alone and that number will be significantly smaller than the number of mains and even smaller again than DS RF that has all mains + all alts with no other viable RF tier.

    So the queue time for the current active tier will be slightly longer than DS RF, but mostly an acceptable queue time.

    The queue time for old tiers however will be considerably longer than DS. By "considerably longer" I mean if you want to do T14 during the period of the final tier in MOP then I will LOL in your face and my healer will charge you 2k gold for an instant join!

  10. #10
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    At a time like this they need to simplify. They need to make things easier on the player. Not overwhelm them with so many factions, so many mini games, making professions more complex. Simplify raiding , do not make it more complex with so many bosses and gating it.

    What made BC and Wrath so great? They made it easier on the players and classes. They did not make classes "more interesting to play" they made them more fun to play. "More interesting to play" is not actually more fun, players leave when they are not having fun. Give classes a bone, give rogues a sticky combo point system that does not drop when they change target. Keep AOE abilities in the rotation. I do not want to have to set up a whole set of keybinds just incase we get 3 adds instead of 1.

    Why is LOL so popular ? 6 buttons ... and ftp, ill give it that, but if was ftp and overly complex it would not be the success it is in my opinion. Same with D3, simple game not many abilities, even tho lots of choices. WoW NEEDS to simplify to survive. GW2 .. yeah not so complex but fun.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woa View Post
    At a time like this they need to simplify. They need to make things easier on the player. Not overwhelm them with so many factions, so many mini games, making professions more complex. Simplify raiding , do not make it more complex with so many bosses and gating it.

    What made BC and Wrath so great? They made it easier on the players and classes. They did not make classes "more interesting to play" they made them more fun to play. "More interesting to play" is not actually more fun, players leave when they are not having fun. Give classes a bone, give rogues a sticky combo point system that does not drop when they change target. Keep AOE abilities in the rotation. I do not want to have to set up a whole set of keybinds just incase we get 3 adds instead of 1.

    Why is LOL so popular ? 6 buttons ... and ftp, ill give it that, but if was ftp and overly complex it would not be the success it is in my opinion. Same with D3, simple game not many abilities, even tho lots of choices. WoW NEEDS to simplify to survive. GW2 .. yeah not so complex but fun.
    I'm against over complex systems for the sake of it, warlocks suffered from that heavily in Cata - they were already juggling more than every other caster in WOTLK - Cata just added more mechanics to keep track of and stripped any reward from it, but I don't think things need toning down. I'd rather not play the 1 button rotation warlocks had at the end of TBC. I still play my warlock, despite the lack of reward from complex play, because it's engaging - I don't fall asleep while playing, there's always something to keep track of and timing buffs to sync with abilities etc.

    If you want simple gameplay, there are simple game modes. LFR and Dungeons can be completed with a handful of buttons, I'd rather raiding and high level pvp keep the complexity that makes it engaging, with options for simpler game modes (in dungeons and LFR / unrated pvp) and a varity of complexity in rotations (some rotations should be simple, but there should be options for some engaging gameplay).

    On a more related note - If MOP does flop (Which I hope it won't, they're taking a lot of steps away from the directions I was worried about them heading in cata), will blizzard finally phone Lore with a job offer?

  12. #12
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    Can MoP save WoW?

    Nope.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'm against over complex systems for the sake of it, warlocks suffered from that heavily in Cata - they were already juggling more than every other caster in WOTLK - Cata just added more mechanics to keep track of and stripped any reward from it, but I don't think things need toning down. I'd rather not play the 1 button rotation warlocks had at the end of TBC. I still play my warlock, despite the lack of reward from complex play, because it's engaging - I don't fall asleep while playing, there's always something to keep track of and timing buffs to sync with abilities etc.

    If you want simple gameplay, there are simple game modes. LFR and Dungeons can be completed with a handful of buttons, I'd rather raiding and high level pvp keep the complexity that makes it engaging, with options for simpler game modes (in dungeons and LFR / unrated pvp) and a varity of complexity in rotations (some rotations should be simple, but there should be options for some engaging gameplay).

    On a more related note - If MOP does flop (Which I hope it won't, they're taking a lot of steps away from the directions I was worried about them heading in cata), will blizzard finally phone Lore with a job offer?

    I agree that there is a point where it is too simple. Arcane Mage. But overly complex seems to be the way they are headed. Reforging ? Need a website to do it right. HoPo , not as bad but not needed imo. I think it great that you kept playing your warlock, but sadly most have not. Why , it might be engaging, but its not "fun". Combat Rogue. broken imo, too many systems that restrict it making only viable for pve. Why make it that complex? I know some it has to do with PVP implications and having to throttle burst ability, but why do it for some classes and not others? BM hunters, 7 line "iwin macro" . WoW has lost a lot of "fun factor".

    I know that they have a lot on their plate and i do not envy them at all, this xpan is make it or break it. I predict another 3mil sub loss by December if GW2 has a bigger fun factor than WoW.

  14. #14
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    @Toypop.

    Yeah you make a good case and I did understand what you meant, what I am trying to say though, is that the flow of alts and casual players will probably increase, especially in the case of casual players, with MoP's release. There is a new class available and I am sure loads of people will want to level one and although I realise that getting into RF T14 when we're at T16 may take longer, unless there is another way of easily gearing a character, then T14 -15 -16 through RF is going to be the way it happens. I don't doubt for a minute that healers will be charging for queues, just like they are now, but I am hoping against hope that the expansion itself, being the most casual friendly expansion yet, will be enough to hold these players attention to sustain it for its duration.

    Lets just hope that, come T16 there aren't a bunch of dungeons offering gear at T15.5 - after all, what would be the point of so many factions offering great gear and equally, what would we do with our seas of VP?

    If MoP is supposed to be a trilogy, I really hope that the story is read that way, I hate books that you just want to skip to the end of. Like Cataclysm.

  15. #15
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    Can MoP save WoW?.....

    Does WoW really "need" saving?

    I mean, which perspective do we really want to take with this? I brought up some points in a response to the Legendary just posted previously (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-1.1M-Sub-Loss) in regards to this. My question is.... is a game that is still raking in over $1 billion in profits per year really in need of "saving"?

    If by saving, we mean restoring it to its "previous" dominance (it's STILL the leading horse in the field kids).... that is one thing. But really, the game is still turning a massive profit for Blizzard/Activision. What I'm concerned about really is, at what point is this just "not enough" for these companies, and they start cutting corners, reskinning old bosses/mobs as new content, and just doing the bare minimum to get by.... slowly sacrificing what was once a high quality game for the sake of cost cutting?

    I really get the sense that they (Blizzard / Activision) REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND that a HUGE part of their success was the reciprocated loyalty to their fans and the dedication to trying to "do right by the customer". They were successful because they were all about their gamers.

    There has been a shift in the way the community perceives the game though. Whether it's true or not, it seems to be what is perceived. Among these things is that:

    - Blizzard is catering to the bads
    - Blizzard is giving away things
    - That people don't want to have to "earn" their achievements, raids, boss kills, loot, etc...
    - That Blizzard has sold out to the "casual"
    - That WoW is becoming too much pay-to-win

    All of that and more. The underlying theme to all of it?..... that Blizzard is chasing a buck instead of trying to just make something AWESOME.

    Some of it is the playerbase "overanalyzing". Some of it is honestly just the "grandpa" thing of "back when I was in TBC, we all were independent, we earned what we got, and we walked uphill both ways to the dungeon entrance". I'm pretty positive of that, but in some ways, again, all of this is pointing to a general perception issue, and in my experience.... when there is a large-scale perception of something that is pretty consistent or at least is pointing to the same area..... there is always at least a little bit of truth to it.

    All that said, if I could talk with the corporate heads at Bliizard / Activision, I'd ask them, what's worse..... making a profit? Or completely losing a line of profit just because it's not making as much as it used to? Continuing to cut into the quality of WoW is GOING to cost you in the long run, one way or another. You will relegate yourselves to "joke" status, and people will stop respecting you. People will no longer be interested in your products because, hey...... look at what they did to the brand name! At some point, the loss of reputation across the board is going to damage EVERYTHING you release.

    So.... do you guys want to be in the video game industry for the long haul and be an enduring presence? Or do you just want to make your quick buck now and not care about anything down the road? Because the path you have been on.... will lead to Blizzard being a second-bit, non-player in the market.

    Or as I like to say, "Ford and Ferrari both make cars..... but very few people dream of owning a Ford." One has developed a reputation and nurtured it. Blizzard..... stop trying to kill yours.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  16. #16
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    Have they made any changes to the guild leveling system? That pretty much ruined WoW. Perks that are too good to stay un-guilded, then making it virtually impossible to start a new guild and keep people. Now 50% or more of guilds are just gold-farmer guilds and starting your own at this point is out of the question.

    IMO they need to do 3 things:

    1. Pro-rate the amount of xp you get based on the number of members in your guild.
    2. Guild perks are like talents, you unlock them in any order you want (with improved versions being later talents if those exist) - this should alleviate getting people to stick around in your guild.
    3. Make it feasible for 3/4 people to power/level a guild in a reasonable amount of time.

    Until then, I'll keep watching WoW from the sidelines, and maybe hop in for a month or two a time to consume whatever content exists.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by leethaxor View Post
    Can MoP save WoW?

    Nope.
    ...you could elaborate on the statement, you know...Just saying.

    Tankspot Moderator
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawnos View Post
    Still don't get how the idea of 'having to progress through prior raids' is any different or will cause any fewer problems than the issues in BC and the more substantial issues EQ faced. If you need Mogushan vault gear for whatever the next intra-tier zone is, that really isn't any different from needing a previous tier to go to the next one. If you want to replace someone in your post-Mogushan guild you are still going to be faced with the issue of having to either recruit a post-Mogushan player or have your raid team return to Mogushan.
    I think the main problem with this in BC was that every raid from Gruul to SWP was 25-man and pretty much mental - quite the opposite of how it was in Cata, let alone mentioning the nerfs coming out as soon as that tier is considered "old". In BC, you needed a guild to run almost any raid, which you did not in Cata, and probably not in MoP as LFR will still be around. The only difference between Cata and MoP, as I see it, will be that instead of running the same 2/3 heroics over and over again, then move on to DS (which you have to do on every difficulty), you can progress through all the content one small bit at a time.

    I agree with most of the points Lore make (as usual), but I sure hope they won't overdo it. I remember the raids in BC being hard (heck, I didn't even raid most of them (coincidence?)), they were 25-man only, and there was no LFR or sure way of doing them if your guild wasn't planning to (time-consuming, organizing difficulties, lack of proper loot etc.). Not only that, but 5-man heroics and badge gear was not of a high item level, nor cheap. Most, if not all, of these issues we don't see today. All of these small changes add up, and I just wish that MoP won't be a zerg-easyfest halfway through the expansion. Like Lore said, exploring, and some other guy mentioned the journey that existed in primarily classic wow, not brainlessly pressing the "Find Boss"-button and faceplowing through the same easy content more-than-par gear for the content you are doing.

  19. #19
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    WoW is successful primarily due to tenure now. People have too many friends and time invested to quit forever (7+ years for some). All new games lack that.

  20. #20
    I am looking forward to MoP just because it is going to be my first totally casual expansion. I am still in a guild that will be running heroic raids and all that but I am just around as a friend, and sure if they need a warm body one night they might get me involved in a raid for a night but for the most part it is LFR, 5mans, and PVP for my future and I have to say from that perspective MoP is looking pretty damn good. If it wasn't for this approuch to the game honestly it wouldn't still be subbing come Mists (yeah I bailed on them for the year wait, can you really blame me?).

    Granted that could all come to a screaming halt if they release another Firelands/Dragon Soul and neglect to release newer PVP stuff. But like Lore said I don't expect another 16ish boss tier, but also like he said I would really like to see it up around 10ish and maybe a new BG released once every couple patches combined with their current strategy of dropping 5 mans with tiers as well.

    Honestly I wish they released a 3 prong push each patch. A new BG/arena, a new raid(s), and new 5 man(s). I know it isn't likely because it seems pretty apparent that they are having trouble just pushing raids out in time before people explode, but a man can dream.

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