MoP RPS Calculator

[kebess]

Place it between 2 GCDs and it will.

Unless you're talking about that cleave thing again.

[kopcap]

I am confused. You don't believe that the boss will move? Or you don't understand why its bad to move the boss? For the former, take my word for it. For the latter, try playing something other than a tank for a little change.

[Fetzie]

Go to LFR as a melee dps, best would be a sub rogue or a feral druid which needs to be behind the target almost 100% of the time. There you will find tanks that move the mobs around, that cannot keep still. A feral druid in ilvl 400 gear loses about 200-250k damage every time the target moves such that they are no longer behind it (and potentially even more if they miss a Rip refresh). You also risk killing people when you move the boss.

Morchok? Use charge or heroic leap and you risk either taking a Stomp on your own, or causing a clothie to take the double-damage bit.
Yor'sahj? Moving the boss in red phase means that you subject the raid to even more damage.
Zon'ozz? What if the boss AI decides that you charging means it needs to turn around and fire off a shadow beam at the raid, regenerating 10% of his life and nearly killing your raid?
Hagara? boss movement can be the difference between a melee getting stacks of the beam or you landing out of LoS behind an ice-block
Ultraxion? Charging means you die from falling off the ledge.
Gunship? The mobs are charging around enough as it is, why make your melee dps want to harm themselves even more? Also healers position themselves exactly 11m from the boss, so that they don't get interrupted, but still only need to run the minimum distance for the shockwave.
Spine? charge at the wrong moment and you'll either absorb bloods too early, or you'll fall off the encounter platform and die.
Madness? Charge at a tentacle and you'll land in the Maelstrom.

Just sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice it is at best annoying for the rest of the raid, and at worst going to kill somebody.

[kebess]

Go to LFR as a melee dps, best would be a sub rogue or a feral druid which needs to be behind the target almost 100% of the time. There you will find tanks that move the mobs around, that cannot keep still. A feral druid in ilvl 400 gear loses about 200-250k damage every time the target moves such that they are no longer behind it (and potentially even more if they miss a Rip refresh). You also risk killing people when you move the boss.

Morchok? Use charge or heroic leap and you risk either taking a Stomp on your own, or causing a clothie to take the double-damage bit.
Yor'sahj? Moving the boss in red phase means that you subject the raid to even more damage.
Zon'ozz? What if the boss AI decides that you charging means it needs to turn around and fire off a shadow beam at the raid, regenerating 10% of his life and nearly killing your raid?
Hagara? boss movement can be the difference between a melee getting stacks of the beam or you landing out of LoS behind an ice-block
Ultraxion? Charging means you die from falling off the ledge.
Gunship? The mobs are charging around enough as it is, why make your melee dps want to harm themselves even more? Also healers position themselves exactly 11m from the boss, so that they don't get interrupted, but still only need to run the minimum distance for the shockwave.
Spine? charge at the wrong moment and you'll either absorb bloods too early, or you'll fall off the encounter platform and die.
Madness? Charge at a tentacle and you'll land in the Maelstrom.

Just sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice it is at best annoying for the rest of the raid, and at worst going to kill somebody.

I play a feral Druid, I know how it works. And no he wouldn't lose 250K damage, because the boss turned 90 degrees for 1 sec, because if you do it right that's all it takes, the boss don't move (or at least not for more than 1 or 2 yards, which isn't even noticed).

Morchock is one of the bosses on which using HL+Ch wouldn't be an issue at all, since you're already moving him so much to follow orbs. Simply place your combo AFTER a stomp. Why would you place it before ?

Yor'sahj - Yes, the red (and even green) phase complicates the use of this combo, so don't use it on red/green phases (I did said it wasn't applicable in every single situation). Use it on all the other phases.

Zon'ozz - again why would you use the combo before Psy drain ? Use it after. I don't get what's complicated in timing it in those situations.

Ultraxion - ; )
If you have tried charging the Drakes on Blackhorn, you'd see that it places you either directly on the edge of the platform, either at the limit of the boss' hit box. So no you wouldn't fall, if you're a bit more careful. Again, if you feel it's risky to use in that particular situation, then don't use it... But there's no reason to fall here, if you don't make a major mistake after that Charge.

Gunship - And one of the adds even has a cleave. So it's one of those fight which the combo isn't that interesting.
Yet, you might still be able to place it AFTER the Charge of your own add, if you're tanking the one that doesn't cleave.

Spine - Have you tank with a Prot War on Spine ? How are you not using Charge, Intervene and HL on Spine to kite bloods ?

Madness -there was that bug on Madness, yes. So don't use that combo there since it's bugged...

So all in all, yeah, it's simply a matter of knowing what you're doing, and not using your abilities randomly, regardless of what's going on, and hopping for the best out come. That never works, agreed.

[Tengenstein]

So you can't do it on CD as boss mecha nics get in the way...i seem to recall saying something along the lines of "I'm not taking into account charge becuase most tanks do not charge on CD." Oh yes! Because it was the the first sentence of my first response on the subject.

[Fetzie]

I'm assuming not using it on CD makes the rage-per-time-unit go down, correct?

And if you can't assume you will be able to perform the charge thing, how does it help you in the long run?

[kebess]

I am confused. You don't believe that the boss will move? Or you don't understand why its bad to move the boss? For the former, take my word for it. For the latter, try playing something other than a tank for a little change.

If you do it right the boss doesn't move at all, or so little that even melees don't noticed it. He mostly turns a bit for the duration of the combo.
I might end up making a little quick clip on this. It would be more revealing than just saying it.

[kebess]

So you can't do it on CD as boss mecha nics get in the way...i seem to recall saying something along the lines of "I'm not taking into account charge becuase most tanks do not charge on CD." Oh yes! Because it was the the first sentence of my first response on the subject.

And I never disagreed with that.


EDIT :

I never planed on using it more than once in 30 sec, anyways. But if because of Mecha, I have to delay it 5 or so sec, it's absolutely no problem, and not that big of a lost in the end. I'd still be getting much Rage through it.

All I was saying towards you Teng, was to add it in somehow if you could, even as an option that people could manually activate with a yes or no cell.

[kebess]

I'm assuming not using it on CD makes the rage-per-time-unit go down, correct?

And if you can't assume you will be able to perform the charge thing, how does it help you in the long run?

Well you can be sure when to use it, if you actually know the fight. Just like I explained in the previous post. You also have Bosmods for the different timers to help you even more with that.

[Fetzie]

And I never disagreed with that.

I for example use Charge coupled with my HL (glyphed to a 30sec CD). I place that combo between two GCDs, which prevents altering my GCD rotation.
And so more or less every 30 sec, I have 1 Charge that grants an additional 30 Rage, equal to very roughly, +1 RPS to my overall avg RPS amount, only through Charge.

You mean like you said there?

[kebess]

I for example use Charge coupled with my HL (glyphed to a 30sec CD). I place that combo between two GCDs, which prevents altering my GCD rotation.
And so more or less every 30 sec, I have 1 Charge that grants an additional 30 Rage, equal to very roughly, +1 RPS to my overall avg RPS amount, only through Charge.

Those red parts meant the timing wasn't always perfect. I thought it was clear enough.

[kebess]

I'm not just disagree for the sake of disagreeing here, and I sure didn't want it to come to this argument.
It's just that, I simply can't agree with what you're saying after experiencing the opposite.

Anyways, I'll try to fraps some footage of this in a real time scenario.

[kopcap]

I am glad we came to an agreement.

Now Teng, could you explain pls why you have not included a rage potion into your spreadsheet? I like to use it more or less every 30 seconds +- 1 year, which is very roughly equal to +1 rps +- 10^6.

[Fetzie]

How is Teng supposed to model it though? Charge on cooldown? Charge every 30 seconds but maybe every 40 if it is inconvenient? There are just too many variables to consider for this to be feasible with the restrictions of Excel.

[Quietsch]

Now Teng, could you explain pls why you have not included a rage potion into your spreadsheet? I like to use it more or less every 30 seconds +- 1 year, which is very roughly equal to +1 rps +- 10^6.

I sense slight sarcasm. But i could be wrong.
And why is there no stancedancing for whitehitrage?

/e I get the feeling, that i've already written something regarding those simulation problems of charge... before 2 sites. :P

[kebess]

Agreed, it would be difficult to model. He could put Charge as an option ==> Yes - No - 30 sec CD - 40 sec CD, or in fact he could simply let us chose the CD ourselves.

Now the guy making the choise would know what his choice is based on.

[kebess]

I sense slight sarcasm. But i could be wrong.

I've learned to tolerate Kopcap's sarcasm, ; ) Discussions could get pretty animated at first though.

[Leucifer]

I don't know what game you've been playing but it doesn't seem to be the WoW I know.

People have been using HL since day one, whether it's to kite and reset stacks/DoTs, as a panic button, or to avoid stuff like Hagara Assault, to reset Tetanus on Madness P2, and now with MoP and the importance of Rage, to allow the use of Charge, so please don't come tell me it's worthless or too risky for some lame reasons.

How is 30 Rage worthless ? Really how ? We are on a thread that's discussing the most OP ways to get the highest RPS possible and you tell me 30 Rage in a second is worthless ?

Because it's too dangerous to have ? Bosses are gonna cleave the hell out of people you say.
How many bosses out there actually ''have'' cleaves that could make this dangerous ? (if of course you were to actually mess it up completely and spin the boss all around...) There were what, 1 in the whole DS ? 1 in the whole FL ?

It will disturb other people you say.
In most fights the boss turns around all the time to cast spells and abilities on caster and players behind him, so how is 1 second of him simply tipping a bit (not even completely, as melees would still be on his side) is gonna disturb anyone ? Or make someone lose his concentration ? You'd have to be pretty damn easily distracted...
I can understand you don't like it for your own personal reasons, but have you actually give it a real shot, or you simply said, naa this is just BS ?

I didn't want to turn this discussion into an argument, but I guess when people come up an throw out these nonsense, there's only so much you can actually tolerate.

Actually.... my response to you would be the same as your first sentence.

30 rage isn't worthless. And maybe you need to reread the original post.... it's a rage per second calulator.... not a discussion "of the most OP ways to get the highest RPS possible".

This:

[h=2]MoP RPS Calculator[/h]So I have somewhere to upload it that doesn't get lost in another thread. The latest version is an attempt to let you put you stats in directly, I'm a little Fuzzy as to the actual ratings to percentages conversions for Block, parry and dodge, all of which i'm getting slightly higher than results in live. any help fine tuning would be appreciated.

...... is the the original post.

I don't see a damn thing in it regarding "OP ways to get highest rps possible".

As for your comment regarding cleaves.... it's hard to tell with MoP yet (as that's what the calc is for). And there HAVE been bosses with a cleave.... Shannox's 120 degree arc being the first of which that pops in mind.

And... to top this off.... it would be on a bit of a long "cooldown" to work this into a rotation. It MIGHT..... MIGHT be handy for a rage starved tank. It may be handy if you absolutely need to get away from the boss for a brief second in order to avoid another hit.... though, in that case, charging back in to the boss, if survival is the issue, is probably not wise. Of course... if you're rage starved and tanking a boss in prot..... I frankly think you're doing something wrong.

The real funny thing here is.... I'm usually the guy getting flamed for suggesting out-of-the-box type ideas..... and yet here I find myself kinda defending conventional wisdom. You do realize we are discussing tanking, correct? Yes.... for a warrior dps spec.... heroic leap + charge IS A PERFECTLY VIABLE way to generate much neeeded rage to continue attacking. For tanking.... not so much.

HL, Charge and Intervene are jail free cards designed to get you out of trouble quickly. HL/Charge in a brainfuck designed to get you in it. It's almost exclusively a 5man/PvP mechanic only. It can be clutch in certain circumstances, ie when you absolutely positively need extra 30 rage to live through the next blow or during a spell cast, but using it on CD is not a good idea if you don't want to get gkicked.

The rest of your post is fine mix of ignorance and nonsense, I don't know how to comment.

I've seen it done in PvP. Viable. Good.
I've seen it done in 5 mans by a tank.... not that I was impressed with this tactic.
I've seen it done by dps specs in raid.... and it's perfectly suitable for them to use to generate rage for dps purposes....

But if I ever catch my tanks doing this in a raid that I'm leading.... you're benched. Again, except for the situation I mentioned above where a warrior tank might do it on a tank swap during the phase in which they are not holding aggro. In that situation, I can understand a warrior doing it to build rage so that they can taunt back and be able to hold threat accordingly.... but even then, it's usually (9 times out of 10) not necessary.

Maybe I'm reading Kebess wrong. I invite to to logically explain your viewpoint.

EDIT:

Some new posts have hit since I started writing this.
I still am of the viewpoint that for a tank, this is a high-risk move in comparison to the benefit.
And again, for dps warriors.... perfectly viable, particularly if rage-starved (more common for dps anyway).
For PvP..... if you're not making use of heroic leap and charge in tandem.... you're probably being eaten alive as you're not using your mobility tools to keep your opponent off-balance.





[Tengenstein]

new update, I've added little spikeyness box, it's basically the standard Deviation of melee swings. its not a great metric, and worthless in terms of comparing Total damage reduction, but as most of us should appreciate TDR is not necessarily the best way to judge survivability, and its the only real way i can think of measuring just how smooth your damage income is and then gear for Maximum Smoothness (MxS).

From what i've palyed around with gearing seems to be

TDR: Mastery>Parry>Dodge>Hit=Exp
MxS: Exp=Hit>Mastery>Parry>dodge

I've not looked at Strength as unlike reforging where its a 1:1 conversion for ratings, I don't know how they've gonna finalise Primary:secondary stats for gems. I know they've siad that it will be about 1:2 but that basically shits all over strength as viable thing for us to gem.

[kopcap]

Aaa, lets not generate even more confusing vocabulary, its already hard enough. Spikiness usually refers to variance. STDV is not variance, its a measure of variance. Note there is also another house-made definition of spikiness floating around wow forums which takes into account tanks hp and a bunch of other factors.

Then I am not sure what you get with this spikiness thing at the end. I get over 50% on default numbers. Does it imply we are healing ourselves 2.5% of the time?