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Originally Posted by kebess
I thought in you previous post you were saying you could lose Rage by, let's say doing : SnB - Shout - Rev - Dev, instead of , SnB - Rev - Dev - SnB.
It could be, that you could read it like this, but it was never my intention.
In the second scenario, your SS is on CD after the rotation, which is worse than in the Shout rotation, since it's up right after.
You're... talking about the 30 SnB, 30 Dev thing? (If that's true: in the scenario favoring 'your' method, SS would be up for me in GCD61 - if that's not what you mean, then i don't know what you mean)

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Oh my, no, no. I didn't even see your EDIT.

I only meant in the second ''rotation'' of that example I gave in my post (1st Rotation => SnB-Shout-Rev-Dev , 2nd Rotation => SnB-Rev-Dev-SnB).

I should have said ''rotation'' instead of ''scenario''.

In any case, an optimal use of Charge and Shout should increase RPS in a very significant way, I think we can agree on that, ; )

3. For ideal RPS I'd assume you'd use shout just before SS came off CD. If you read up the protection warrior spreadsheet thread in theory and mechanics there a section where me an Kopcap discuss shockwave weaving and under the assumption that SS and SW had similar DPEs (or if in fact SW had sightly higher DPEs) we mathed out that using SW in the 3rd GCD ofter SS based of of Kojiyama's Wrath math, gave the superior DPS, something we managed to back up later with simcraft. This mainly becuase using it extends the cycle length. I would think that the comparison would still hold. I'll add in shouts as +((20/60)-(1.5*cyclical RPS/60)

I've done the ping-pong intervene>charge thing, and quite frankly its aweful. It requires either people standing around >8yard away from you and results in either spinning the boss which is not fun for the DPS, risks getting the cleaved and if there standing in the wrong place moments when your back is to the boss. Further more intervened is a 20s CD so charge on CD is impossible, and safeguard is kinda a necassary external CD for some progression encounters
Last edited by Tengenstein; 08-01-2012 at 05:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by kebess

I only meant in the second ''rotation'' of that example I gave in my post (1st Rotation => SnB-Shout-Rev-Dev , 2nd Rotation => SnB-Rev-Dev-SnB).
The problem with this example (well... with most examples) is, that it's (maybe only subconscious) constructed in a way, which benefits 'you' - I could also try and come up with some which let 'my' priority seem better. :P

@Tengenstein: First, what is DPE? (Damage per execution?)
Second: He wants to use HL + Charge - which is at least in some situations more reasonable/useable.

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein
I've done the ping-pong intervene>charge thing, and quite frankly its aweful. It requires either people standing around >8yard away from you and results in either spinning the boss which is not fun for the DPS, risks getting the cleaved and if there standing in the wrong place moments when your back is to the boss. Further more intervened is a 20s CD so charge on CD is impossible, and safeguard is kinda a necassary external CD or some progression encounters
Intervene is harder to use with Charge yes. Heroic Leap is much easier to use and benefit from Charge. IMO, it would be a waste to not learn to use that combo.

6. the problem is that you need to HL out of Melee range, which with the mob AI being predictive risks moving the boss, and moving out of healing range, and risks you charging to where the bosses front was whilst the boss moves to where your HL landed which risks moving and turning the boss an ending up with boss looking you straight in the back.

DPE is damage per execute.

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Sorry.... wanted to chime in.
From a raid risk-management perspective, the heroic leap > charge thing is just kind of a horrible idea. You might end up moving the boss, changing his position, ... all of the stuff that Teng mentions above. You're sacrificing "CONTROL" of the boss in order to gain a little rage. I could see doing this if you were honestly rage-starved and absolutely needed it in order to perform a primary tank function..... survival or threat/boss control.

But you're risking getting hit in a way without avoidance/block..... you might move the boss and cause a dps loss for the whole raid.....

And you want to consider this as a part of the standard 'tank rotation" for a warrior?

Yes. I think it has situational applications. Two-tank fight.... other tank taunts off?.... Sure. Go for it. I don't believe that is what the sim is targeting though.

Last edited by Leucifer; 08-01-2012 at 04:29 PM. Reason: capitalization

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein
the problem is that you need to HL out of Melee range, which with the mob AI being predictive risks moving the boss, and moving out of healing range, and risks you charging to where the bosses front was whilst the boss moves to where your HL landed which risks moving and turning the boss an ending up with boss looking you straight in the back.
It will need some practise if you're not used to it, yes. But you can use it without moving the boss in any aweckard way. I've been using it a lot recently, and the Rage burst is really nice to have.

Moving out of healing range isn't an issue either since the whole process doesn't take (or shouldn't take) more than 1 sec, and once you get used to it, you actually never get out of healing Range, some 15-20 yards is more than enough.

I'm not saying it's for everyone or that it's something everyone will enjoy doing, I'm merely saying that it's easily done once practised and that it's very optimal to have that Rage burst (there's nothing else that gives you 30 Rage in a sec).
EDIT
It's sure not applicable in every single situation, but it is in most.

So ignoring it completely in an RPS calc, isn't necessary the most appropriate way to handle it.
Last edited by kebess; 08-01-2012 at 04:46 PM.

9. Kebess, everyone here knows how to do it. We don't consider the risk worth it. In the same way i don't consider sitting down on live worth the risk for not being rage starved.

10. Originally Posted by kebess
EDIT
It's sure not applicable in every single situation, but it is in most.

So ignoring it completely in an RPS calc, isn't necessary the most appropriate way to handle it.
Having not really followed this whole conversation that closely, I'm going to chime in and agree w/Leuc and Teng here.

This is a TERRIBLE idea. At BEST it causes your raid-mates to lose their concentration, at worst it will cause you a wipe.

A little bit of rage is MOST DEFINITELY not worth even the best case scenario. If someone in my raid tried to do this I'm positive that everyone else would make them knock it off immediately.

If you've gotten yourself to the point where you're so rage starved that you're worried you're going to die...call for an external cooldown. That's what they're there for. Doing some rage-acrobatics is just going to exacerbate the situation.

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*Sigh*
I guess you guys don't like this combo very much. It's a matter of game style after all, so I understand, no point fussing on it.

@Teng :
It'd be nice if you could at least stick Shouts somewhere it the calc, of course if you consider them to be relevant that is.

12. /facepalm...

add in shouts as +((20/60)-(1.5*cyclical RPS/60)

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein
/facepalm...
Chill out, mate. Again, no point in fussing on this. Glad you made the change.

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HL/Charge can hardly ever be used on progression content.

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I don't know what game you've been playing but it doesn't seem to be the WoW I know.

People have been using HL since day one, whether it's to kite and reset stacks/DoTs, as a panic button, or to avoid stuff like Hagara Assault, to reset Tetanus on Madness P2, and now with MoP and the importance of Rage, to allow the use of Charge, so please don't come tell me it's worthless or too risky for some lame reasons.

How is 30 Rage worthless ? Really how ? We are on a thread that's discussing the most OP ways to get the highest RPS possible and you tell me 30 Rage in a second is worthless ?

Because it's too dangerous to have ? Bosses are gonna cleave the hell out of people you say.
How many bosses out there actually ''have'' cleaves that could make this dangerous ? (if of course you were to actually mess it up completely and spin the boss all around...) There were what, 1 in the whole DS ? 1 in the whole FL ?

It will disturb other people you say.
In most fights the boss turns around all the time to cast spells and abilities on caster and players behind him, so how is 1 second of him simply tipping a bit (not even completely, as melees would still be on his side) is gonna disturb anyone ? Or make someone lose his concentration ? You'd have to be pretty damn easily distracted...
I can understand you don't like it for your own personal reasons, but have you actually give it a real shot, or you simply said, naa this is just BS ?

I didn't want to turn this discussion into an argument, but I guess when people come up an throw out these nonsense, there's only so much you can actually tolerate.
Last edited by kebess; 08-02-2012 at 12:17 AM.

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I don't know what game you've been playing but it doesn't seem to be the WoW I know.
HL, Charge and Intervene are jail free cards designed to get you out of trouble quickly. HL/Charge in a brainfuck designed to get you in it. It's almost exclusively a 5man/PvP mechanic only. It can be clutch in certain circumstances, ie when you absolutely positively need extra 30 rage to live through the next blow or during a spell cast, but using it on CD is not a good idea if you don't want to get gkicked.

The rest of your post is fine mix of ignorance and nonsense, I don't know how to comment.
Last edited by kopcap; 08-02-2012 at 01:15 AM.

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Originally Posted by kopcap
HL, Charge and Intervene are jail free cards designed to get you out of trouble quickly. HL/Charge in a brainfuck designed to get you in it. It's almost exclusively a 5man/PvP mechanic only. It can be clutch in certain circumstances, ie when you absolutely positively need extra 30 rage to live through the next blow or during a spell cast, but using it on CD is not a good idea if you don't want to get gkicked.
And I'm the one talking nonsense ? In that simple quote you're contracting yourself 2 times.
First you say HL+Charge is the best way to get into trouble,
but then right after you acknowledge it can be used to be productive in at least 2 ways after all, and even to save your life,
but then right after that you go back again and say, but however, if you do use it often and benefit even more from it, you'll get kicked.

Sure, I'm the one talking nonsense. It must be pretty messy the way you see things...

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Can you see a difference between a priest using his lifegrip on CD and using it to save someone?

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Originally Posted by kopcap
Can you see a difference between a priest using his lifegrip on CD and using it to save someone?
Confirms what I'm saying. It must be messy the way you see things.
A Priest gripping a player to save his life is only one of the multiple applications of Heroic Leap, and in this way it can be used as a panic button just like I said in my ''nonsense and ignorant'' post, ; )

But guess what, another one of those many applications is to combine it with Charge and have a free 30 Rage burst.

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Its not FREE