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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Deconstructing the Dragon Soul Debuff

  1. #41
    While I understand where you're coming from, Lore, with the idea of bigger nerfs spread further apart to make them more noticeable to those that need them and to give those that don't more time to get their "legit" kill before the nerf, I still think that it would run into the same issue of the nerf "stealing" the satisfaction from you. The whole point of the nerfs is to make the content easier to more people can clear it, so the whole idea is "you couldn't kill it before the nerf, and then after the nerf you could", and you're likely to still catch people who were getting closer to being able to do it but weren't quite there and then the 10% nerf comes out and it's now noticeably easier and far less satisfying of a kill.

    When nerfs are big enough to make a noticeable difference they're more likely to steal the thunder from you because that noticeable difference is going to feel like it was the difference between not being able to kill a boss and killing it. The less noticeable the nerf the more you'll feel like you earned the kill.

    I think smaller more frequent nerfs might be better. Such as a 1% nerf every week (which would actually be a little slower than the 5% roughly every month that we've been getting). My reasoning is that the nerf would be that small that it wouldn't be noticeable at all. From one week to the next you wouldn't be able to even tell the difference between the nerf, so when you finally get that kill it's not going to feel like you only killed it because it was nerfed 14% instead of 13% and instead you're going to feel like your personal effort/improvement made a bigger difference.

    You loose the ability to spend multiple weeks between nerfs, but I think that if you can't see a noticeable difference from one nerf to the next that won't be as big of a deal. At least from the viewpoint of personal satisfaction this would be the best solution since there are no sudden jumps between "almost got it" and "that was easy". There would perhaps be the downside of community perspective where every week you fail to kill a boss would weigh a little more than it does currently, but at least it would be a smoother transition. I mean would you really make that big of a deal between someone who got their heroic kill before the nerfs started and someone else that got the same kill when the fight was nerfed 1%?

  2. #42
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    I think a great deal of our perspective on the rate of content balance change is relative to the rate of content release...

    If you had a tier that you were in for six months before the next tier came out and it started getting a stacking nerf of 5% at three months, and it increased every month, you would be at about 15% or 20% at the end of this tier when the next tier is released. Relative to when the next content is made available, this may seem like an acceptable rate of adjusting the content balance.

    Now if you were stuck in the same tier for nine months though and had that same schedule of re-balancing, suddenly you are ending at a 30% or 35%. Because the duration of this tier of content is longer as a whole, the speed at which the re-balancing is applied likely seems too fast.

    How quickly the next content is released is probably one of the largest factors in what the majority of the player base would consider an appropriate rate of adjusting the difficulty. Players don't want to feel like they finished the content too fast and are just waiting for the next content. Likewise, players don't like to be left out feeling like didn't finish the content and are already pushed into the next. And of course you'll never be able to please everyone.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    I thought those were going to just be "timed runs" in dungeons? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
    The gear level is, at least, normalized. The "score" is your time. Spec is variable...but spec hardly matters that much anyway in MoP and I imagine there will be cookie cutter specs for challenge modes anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    The gear level is, at least, normalized. The "score" is your time. Spec is variable...but spec hardly matters that much anyway in MoP and I imagine there will be cookie cutter specs for challenge modes anyway.
    Fair point on spec. I keep forgetting that we're going to the Modern Warfare talent trees.

    Hm. Interesting! Thank you for the education. It's not quite on the level that raiding is...... but maybe this will be their exploratory dip into the waters of setting up a "true" competitive PvE arena?

    Who knows.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  5. #45
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    blizz is your bitch lore

    OMG lore blizzard soooo watches the weekly marmot! they just announced feats os strength to do heart of fear mogu'shan vaults and terrace of the endless springs without the debuff!!!!!

    how great is this blizzard just does things you say lore that's how good you are

    ask for green fire for locks now!

  6. #46
    Not sure if it's been posted, but



    Cutting Edge: Grand Empress Shek'zeer (New) Defeat Grand Empress Shek'zeer in Heart of Fear on Heroic difficulty, with Klaxxi Resonance inactive or disabled.


    Cutting Edge: Sha of Fear (New) Defeat the Sha of Fear in Terrace of Endless Spring on Heroic difficulty, with the Ritual of Purification inactive or disabled.


    Cutting Edge: Will of the Emperor (New) Defeat the Will of the Emperor in Mogu'shan Vaults on Heroic difficulty, with the Dampening Field either inactive or disabled.


    http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=126848 (Ritual of Purification)
    http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=126841 (Klaxxi Resonance)
    http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=126816 (Dampening Field)


    Credit to Zyalo from MMO-champion for posting this there, just copy pasting.

    Special achievements for doing bosses w/o the buff/nerf (looks to be Feat of strengths)
    Last edited by BLSTMASTER; 07-13-2012 at 03:51 PM.

  7. #47
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    haha I beat you to it with 1 minute xD

  8. #48
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    I'm not a hardcore raider, but I recently proposed exactly what you said regarding a FoS for 0% debuff Heroic raid clear.

    There are simply too many players who despise and loathe the "Special Snowflakes" of WoW. However, not one of them can offer any logical reasoning behind NOT implementing this aside from "It's gear nerfed; therefore, not a real Feat" or "Real hardcores use Achievement Dates".

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriwarri View Post
    ask for green fire for locks now!
    He did, didn't work

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elilol View Post
    Lore, I'd like to know your opinion on whether a %-debuff (Like in Dragon Soul) or a %-buff (Like in Icecrown Citadel) is better. The buff has the advantage of making the player feel stronger (more damage, more health, more healing), whereas the debuff only really affects healers (less to do, yet you don't feel stronger).
    Because of this I'm inclined to believe that a %-buff is better for the -feel- of getting better (much like getting new gear, actually). But as Blizzard have stated at some point they don't like the %-buff because the player feels weak as soon as he leaves the instance.
    I'd really like to know your opinion about this.
    Just IMO, % debuff > % player buff.
    Biggest reason is, as stated by Blizzard, outside of the raid, everyone just feels pathetic. In ICC, heroic raiders got used to doing ridiculous amounts of damage, and then just felt pathetic when Ruby Sanctum came out. Personally i feel like a complete badass when Heroic Morchok gets killed just before the second black blood phase, and there are similar markers on other bosses. So you can still have that feeling of being stronger without really feeling like you're worthless outside of the instance.
    Also, % debuff doesn't just help healers. It compensates for lacking DPS due too less boss (and adds) health (see H Ultraxion aka glorified DPS race)
    Last edited by Gregasaurous; 07-14-2012 at 02:42 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    First off... 100/13 = 7.69 > 7
    The buff is weaker than the nerf. This has mostly to deal with it's relative effect. Each increase has less effect than the prior increase. The opposite is true of nerfs. Each increase is actually relatively larger than the one prior.

    Relative scaling...
    You aren't "gaining" 30%. You're increasing 25% to 30%.

    Increasing a buff from +25% to +30% is actually a 4% increase from the prior week.
    Increasing a debuff from -25% to -30% is actually a 6.67% decrease from the prior week.

    So if you do 10,000 DPS with a 25% buff, increasing the buff to 30% would increase your DPS to 10,400. If the boss had 100,000 health in the prior week it took 10 seconds for you to kill him. With the increased buff it takes you 9.62 seconds.

    On the other side, if the boss had a 25% nerf and was at 100,000 health last week and now the nerf is increased to 30%, they would have 93,333 health now. If you did 10,000 DPS the week prior and killed it in 10 seconds, this week you kill it in 9.33 seconds.

    Thank you for proving my point that a x% buff to us is not the same as an x% nerf to the boss.

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