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Thread: PST - Episode 86

  1. #41
    The encounters were impossible in DF groups because the type of players there lead to massively increased healing requirements in comparison to guild groups.
    Why do you keep saying this as if it's an issue? If people play poorly, they don't win. (Actually, they usually STILL win even if they play poorly, but that's another issue.)

    What exactly do you want us to do about this? Just make it impossible to fail? Do you even want to play a game? I just don't think anyone gets what you're trying to say here.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    I suspect that you, like Ghostcrawler and many posters on the official forums made the failed assumption that "players will improve and adapt if you make the content harder".
    Hm. I think you must be thinking of someone else. You might be thinking of Lore or someone else who is warm and fuzzy. Ion perhaps? I'm not a big believer in the concept that, if you make it harder, the "lowest common denominator" shall rise. A fair example of this is my view on LFR/Normal/Heroic raids. LFR should be the "come see content" version and drop loot that is on par with heroics and not identical in appearance to raid drops. Normal should be the everyman "challenge" that will be a pretty rigorous test of 80% of the population. Heroics.... should be unabashedly difficult, unforgiving, and never be nerfed, no compromises.... a true "competitive mode" for the truly hardcore to test themselves against.

    @ Mwaka

    I'll agree with you on some of this. It's pretty retarded when you have the water dungeon which has a grand whopping 3... maybe 4 bosses..... and then you have HoO..... with what.... 7 bosses and 4 "mini" bosses. Grim Batol.... mixed feelings. I usually smoke the mobs with the drakes pretty well with my groups, though, I have seen some runs/pulls there that kinda suck. I actually like 3 of the 4 bosses there because, to me, they are almost like 5-man "raid" bosses in difficulty (or were anyway). That was part of why I liked the troll dungeons.

    I agree with some points. If trash is going to be "meaningful".... difficult to take down..... then you need to scale the quantity down. If the trash will not require a ton of brainpower to tackle, then kick up the numbers (as far as amounts) some. Some trash pulls are honestly harder than some bosses. I'm "almost" ok with that. I don't like mindless heroics. Again.... I LIKE heroics that are kind of like "mini-raids" in difficulty. There are honestly times when I'd rather gouge out an eye than raid. Getting the group of 10 of us to just throw ourselves against chain bosses (Dragonsoul anyone?),,,,,, meh. The "trash adds" in DS are total fluff, for example. That whole raid is really just chain boss pulls, as opposed to Firelands where, say, with Shannox..... you actually cleared out your battlespace.

    By the way, I have a love/hate relationship with Halls of Reflection. The gauntlet at the end is one of my favorite 'encounters' in that it's somewhat dynamic compared to a lot of other encounters...... but I have run with some HORRIBLE groups in there. My worst run was a 4 hour trip.... and that was because I was chewing my guildmates' butts telling them I'm not quitting until they unf**k themselves and do things right.

    I like some of your ideas though (particularly a challenging 7-8 man boss run for a 5 man....... tasty!)

    @ Toypop

    You did miss my point. At the start.... Wrath heroics were NOT faceroll. They only became that way around t9/t10..... when the gear from those tiers, so readily available.... made those early heroics a bit of a joke. By that point, the only ones that WERE meaningful were the ICC ones. We found ourselves in the same boat in Cata.

    Original Wrath Heroics = Original Cata Heroics

    Ulduar Heroics = Cata Old-School Revamp Heroics

    Tourney Heroic = Troll Heroics (kinda.... troll ones much better)

    ICC Heroics = Dragonsoul Heroics

    As each new set got released.... the older set became "jokes". The difference now being, you get more valor points for the DS heroics in comparison to the original Cata heroics...... and in Wrath.... you got the same amount of frost emblems for just running your daily heroic.... regardless of what it was.

    As for your assessment of the LFG tool.... the problem you saw there was largely because it was the first time that we had the LFG tool employed at the start of an expansion. If you remember, LFG wasn't employed at the start of Wrath. There was no historic experience to go by. At Wrath's release.... you ran heroics with people you knew or you went and sat outside the dungeon and HOPED you could pug with a group going in. The experience with LFG was really once people had largely acquired gear in Wrath.

    Blizzard simply went and tried to do what they did before..... gear starting expac heroic to the current gear..... and had the LFG in place from the get-go.... and voila!!!! .... You have a cluster because PLAYERS WERE STUCK IN A ROTFLSTOMP mindset.

    People were arrogant/ignorant by and large and didn't think it would be a challenge, and thus.... were sadly and painfully mistaken.

    So if the players don't adapt what do you do? Blizzard had a choice - adapt the content to the customers or lose the customers. They chose the former. Ah well QQ, I'd rather they fixed the DF tool to somehow filter out bad players so the content could be more challenging but I am realistic enough to know that won't happen as Blizzard want those bad players to pay them subs each month. Also QQ from Blizzard as they lost 2 millions subs each month due to something that many observers such as myself predicted.
    They did eventually nerf the t11 heroics. Yes. But you want to know what the real adaptation was?...... BETTER GEAR. Once people started "out-gearing" those dungeons.... people started rolling them.

    As for your idea of fixing the DF tool to "filter out bad players"..... how the heck do you propose to do that? Gear score?... Oh wait. They did that with trolls and STILL you had problem players land in there. And the way you talk about "these people".... hold on.... let me fetch it from your earlier post....

    Crucial point: the people that run this content donít have the same tolerance level, commitment level or free time levels for WoW as HC raiders. You must stop assuming that the majority have the same preferences and lifestyle choices as you. The majority donít enjoy spending entire evenings dying without succeeding when they could have been playing another game or in a bar.
    So..... let me get this straight. You want Blizzard to filter out the "bad players", that by your own admission.... maybe aren't as dedicated as you? Hypocrisy much? You're claiming that you "were a HC mode ICC raider", yet, you're having problems with running content that you say is aimed at people NOT of "your skill level"? You want to keep these people out of their content? You were just saying that you wanted stuff to "be more challenging," but you're on the other hand, crying foul that it was "broken"? Call me a little confused.

    ...... Here's a better idea. Filter out your own players. Queue up with a group of players you know and trust. You know.... that whole crazy "community" thing people whine and cry about? Which is worth more to you.... insta-queue to run in a dungeon.... or maybe waiting 30 minutes for your buddy to get on so you can run together? Wait and run the heroics with mostly members from your heroic mode guild, and maybe drag along one or two random scrubs from LFG. But then, don't complain about them, because you're obviously at a higher skill level than they are. Or better yet.... maybe take a few moments to try and TEACH some of these other players how to do things better.

    Hell..... I know that I would hold off on queueing a lot of times and wait the extra 15-30 minute for a buddy to log on, rather than run a true random and spend an extra 30 minutes on wipes. And if someone really was that abyssmal, shit, I tried to either help them, or if they were "unhelp-able", we parted ways. If I was honestly the cause of the problem (which happened a few times), I'd kindly apologize, thank them for having me along as far as they did, and step out.

    Again.... the healing model WASN'T broken. It worked. Yes, it was a bit difficult at the start because no one was really "well-geared" and the content was made to be a HEROIC DUNGEON aimed at players using gear in that tier content. Once people acquired better gear, a LOT of the problems dissipated. You still had to contend with the occasional DB that just did dumb stuff but, lo' and behold..... your gear was to the point where you could overlook some of that stupidity.

    This happens EVERY TIME there is new content. It happened in Wrath in t7, t8, t9/10. It happened in Cata in t11, t12, and t13. Heck.... maybe some of the older crowd can tell you.... it probably happened with Mag Terrace and the rest of TBC. In any case.... things got better when players caught up.

    Player A (G (Gear) + S (Skill)) + Player B (G+S) + Player C (G+S).... etc = C (Competence in Content)

    As gear improves competence in content will generally improve.
    As skill improves, competence in content will generally improve.

    If one or both are low.... things are gonna suck. If one piece of the sum of the parts is low.... guess what? That group will "not be as competent".

    Or, if you want to know my TL;DR view..... you can just look at my sig line.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Why do you keep saying this as if it's an issue? If people play poorly, they don't win. (Actually, they usually STILL win even if they play poorly, but that's another issue.)

    What exactly do you want us to do about this? Just make it impossible to fail? Do you even want to play a game? I just don't think anyone gets what you're trying to say here.
    Did you not watch PST?

    They are the majority that pay the bills. They matter. You don't matter (Lores words not mine). When they stopped "winning" they stopped paying.

    Why do you think I want you to do anything?

    It is up to Blizzard as to how many subscribers they want. They can be a small game catering to a minority or a large game catering to the wider demographic.

    All I have done is explain why the 4.0 content and the revisions to healing didn't work for the majority of customers that play via an automated tool that can't filter out bad or heavily under performing players.

    From the steps Blizzard have taken it looks as though they have chosen to go down the path of modifying the content so that it once again works well with those automated groups. This of course involves making it possible to complete dungeons with the lowest common denominator of members.

    Yes as you say - "impossible to fail". Before you whip the strawman out - NO I don't particularly enjoy "impossible to fail content" and that is NOT what I am saying. I am telling you HOW IT IS and not how I want it to be. Tbh it is better than slamming my head through my keyboard in frustration at my fellow players as I did in 4.0 but I do find it very boring. QQ my fault for changing my lifestyle and having to quit my hardcore guild. No regrets though.

    I think it is true though that you and players like you don't realise just how close your hobby came to the brink during this expansion. Lore is correct that Blizzard would likely be better offer completely cancelling all future raid development and reallocating those resources elsewhere. Unlike me, you don't have to suffer nothing but this faceroll content as you still get to run HC raids. Just be glad of that and pray that Blizzard keep providing it.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    A fair example of this is my view on LFR/Normal/Heroic raids. LFR should be the "come see content" version and drop loot that is on par with heroics and not identical in appearance to raid drops.
    Then they will simply stick to 5 mans and raid content will be cancelled... Not sure you want that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    @ Toypop

    You did miss my point. At the start.... Wrath heroics were NOT faceroll.
    No they were easy at the start. No problem pugging them, far easier and faster than the 4.0's. Granted it wasn't in DF but in /2 pugs where I personally didn't select players as I just waited for "LF1M healer/tank" in /2 and responded. We wiped we kicked people, sure, but it was better than 4.0. No insta-death mechanics, healer and tanks able to compensate for bad/dead DPS etc. Some dungeons were a pain and we avoided them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    As for your idea of fixing the DF tool to "filter out bad players"..... how the heck do you propose to do that? Gear score?... Oh wait. They did that with trolls and STILL you had problem players land in there. And the way you talk about "these people".... hold on.... let me fetch it from your earlier post....
    I believe I've posted in other threads saying it cannot realistically be fixed. I also said Blizzard wouldn't want to fix it anyway because doing so would eliminate a lot of paying customers. Dunno who you are arguing with but it isn't me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    So..... let me get this straight. You want Blizzard to filter out the "bad players", that by your own admission.... maybe aren't as dedicated as you? Hypocrisy much? .
    Doing that would be bad for business as I already said. Sure just like you I'd love my own tailor made content - an instant join mode that keeps out bad players and can be challenging. I'd like to win the lottery too. Ain't gonna happen so I am being realistic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    . insta-queue to run in a dungeon.... or maybe waiting 30 minutes for your buddy to get on so you can run together?
    If I had the time to team up in organised groups do you think I'd have gone from battling for realm firsts to playing solo in DF?

    Yes waiting for team mates and having a quick run might be faster than having instant join and a slow run. But both options take too long for me which is why I unsubbed for most of 2011.



    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Again.... the healing model WASN'T broken. It worked.
    Yup worked great in the groups that the minority play in. Fantastic. So that is not broken? Depends on whether you are in the minority or one of Blizzards shareholders I guess.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post


    Then they will simply stick to 5 mans and raid content will be cancelled... Not sure you want that.


    That would be a bit of a bummer. I do enjoy my 5-mans, and in some ways, they can be fantastic. It'd be a shame to see the 25 man or 10 man raiding scene collapse. Then again..... all things come to an end. Nothing lasts forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post

    No they were easy at the start. No problem pugging them, far easier and faster than the 4.0's. Granted it wasn't in DF but in /2 pugs where I personally didn't select players as I just waited for "LF1M healer/tank" in /2 and responded. We wiped we kicked people, sure, but it was better than 4.0. No insta-death mechanics, healer and tanks able to compensate for bad/dead DPS etc. Some dungeons were a pain and we avoided them.
    Wrath heroics were "easy" out the gate? I'm talking at 3.0..... not 3.3 or later. Yeah, there were fewer insta-death mechanics (shock blast anyone?).... but they weren't the stroll in the park which was heroics at 3.3. And when you say, some dungeons were a "pain", that means you were likely skipping harder content. LFG doesn't automatically do this and actualy incentivizes the opposite.... taking what you're given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post

    I believe I've posted in other threads saying it cannot realistically be fixed. I also said Blizzard wouldn't want to fix it anyway because doing so would eliminate a lot of paying customers. Dunno who you are arguing with but it isn't me.
    ActiBlizzardVision won't do anything to hurt their bottom line, so yeah, I agree. Don't plan to see much changing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post

    Doing that would be bad for business as I already said. Sure just like you I'd love my own tailor made content - an instant join mode that keeps out bad players and can be challenging. I'd like to win the lottery too. Ain't gonna happen so I am being realistic.
    Well, I do have an instant join mode that keeps out fairly bad players...... I call it "/g YO!!!! Let's go crush some stuff. Get off your butts and come with me!" It's fairly successful as my non-heroic-raiding guild is fulll of people who we've spent a fair amount of time with. Sure, we're not clearing raids (with that guild anyway), but I know that if I need a dungeon run, they're ready to roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post

    If I had the time to team up in organised groups do you think I'd have gone from battling for realm firsts to playing solo in DF?

    Yes waiting for team mates and having a quick run might be faster than having instant join and a slow run. But both options take too long for me which is why I unsubbed for most of 2011.

    Yup worked great in the groups that the minority play in. Fantastic. So that is not broken? Depends on whether you are in the minority or one of Blizzards shareholders I guess.
    Toypop.... I TOTALLY get that you're not thrilled that you're no longer raiding heroic. Your guild fell apart or just couldn't keep things together for whatever reason. Welcome to the club. My main lives in the wasteland that is/was my guild because I'm too damn stubborn to take it out of what is probably the oldest standing guild on my server at this point on Alliance side. That is my choice. Honestly man... I suggest doing a little scouting around and opening yourself up to just getting back in with a group that IS actively running something. Even if it isn't heroic mode.... at least at presently. That's how I got sucked back into the game after 4-5 months away. Some friends started up a new guild on a new server, and asked if I'd join them. They're actually taking cracks at heroic Dragonsoul..... which, though that may not sound impressive to much of the TS community..... for these people, it's a significant step up.

    Am I thrilled about this? No. It's not where I envisioned I'd end up. Guess what.... it's the hand I've been dealt. I made some choices along the way that got me there..... and it's pretty likely that you did too.

    This wraps me around back to a point that I always make in regards to the "community" on WoW. People frequently say, "there's no community" or "LFG destroyed the community". Those statements are generalizations, and generalizations are typically used to cover up our own deficiencies. Again, the aforementioned friends that sucked me back in. This gal has somehow managed to piece together two full-time DS raid teams, one of which is actively trying to crack heroic content. Six months ago, she had a guild of maybe 6 people. It didn't happen overnight, but she managed to reach out to enough people and get them believing in what she was selling.

    (A small aside... part of the problem I think/believe is that for groups trying to form "heroic raiding" guilds, is that the expectation levels are usually VERY high, on both the recuiter and recruitee ends. When those expectations aren't met.... on either end, things start to collapse.... which is why you don't see a lot of those fledgling or flailing heroic guilds really last long. You're dealing with a LOT of "personality" and those people are bringing a LOT of "baggage" to the table that the team has to somehow overcome.)

    Anyway, a lot of what you're describing comes from personal choice. You're welcome to it, but understand the consequences of some of those choices. The "heroic raiding or nothing" thing.... it doesn't seem to be serving you well. Maybe you need to be part of hte leadership of something new? I don't know..... but you seem REALLY unhappy.

    Or you could just wait for Guild Wars 2...... or MoP...... or Mechwarrior Online..... or The Elder Scrolls Online..... or....
    No one tanks in a void.........

  6. #46
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    While we are not all equal ... most people have the capability to learn and improve.
    If you make a task to hard to complete you don't learn.
    Also if a task is too easy then you don't learn either.
    Balancing this is always hard and sometimes Blizzard gets it wrong.
    LFR makes it possible for less experienced players to gear for normal and easier to explain the fights ("like LFR but add this mechanic").
    Nerfs progressively make normal and heroics easier so people can keep finding new challenges they can complete.
    This way people get better.
    And more better people means more raiders which means Blizzard cares about raiding ... and all raiders win.
    If you completed 8/8H pre nerf then you may be lacking challenges ... perhaps you should take up working on quantum physics to stretch yourself!
    For everyone else the nerfs open up new challenges ... even the almighty tallest Lore needed nerfs to finish Heroic DS
    And people who say no to explict nerfs always ignore the more subtle nerf that is gearing up through multiple weeks of running a raid instance brings.
    If you can farm 8/8H with the nerf you could turn it off and challenge yourself on each of the fights.
    To people say they won't turn off the nerf but then complain about them ... you are just scared to see how Not Awesome you are.

    Perhaps Blizzard should introduce gear normalized challenge modes for Raids with cool titles, mounts and stuff ...

    We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard

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