PST - Episode 86

[Ion]

For the record, Toypop, plenty of healers had no issue at all healing pugs in early Cata, mostly because we had a clue.

Also, breaking news...sometimes groups will fail and wipe. It happens. That doesn't mean anything is broken.

I thought you were supposed to be able to succeed without any resistance at all.

Isn't that the point?

Guys?

[Mwawka]

@Mwawka, ok let's test the number.

44,644 guilds downed H Morchok. Of those, 3,290 were 25 man guilds - the rest were 10m.
That totals 495,790 players. Note that it does NOT include China realms, where over 1/2 the playerbase is located.
So let's double the number to account for the ZH players - 991,580.
This does not include pug groups that have downed H Morchok, but w/e we'll go with a conservative number.
With a 10 million subscriber base (subscriptions, NOT players), that's just about 10% of the subscription base that have downed a Heroic boss.

I think this 1% of the player base that like heroic raiding is vastly underrated.

Just because Heroic Morchok is labled a heroic difficulty boss, does not make it a challenging fight, especially with a 25% nerf. Let's use Hagara as a benchmark instead and now we're down to under 5% who have done any challenging content and if we move that down to 10-12% who have done the most challenging bosses, we're actually getting back into the sub 2% of all accounts who have downed all the heroic bosses, even with a substantial nerf. I would say that a lot of that 2% aren't dedicated progression raiders at this point, so when you back up a couple of months the number would decrease substantially further.

You really can't take kill numbers from arguably the easiest 'heroic' boss encounter ever released (my regards to H-Gunship) and say because 10% of the player base has downed it, 10% of the player base are heroic mode raiders.

[Fetzie]

Also, breaking news...sometimes groups will fail and wipe. It happens. That doesn't mean anything is broken.

Obviously it does to some people...

[Lrot]

@Mwawka, ok let's test the number.

44,644 guilds downed H Morchok. Of those, 3,290 were 25 man guilds - the rest were 10m.
That totals 495,790 players. Note that it does NOT include China realms, where over 1/2 the playerbase is located.
So let's double the number to account for the ZH players - 991,580.
This does not include pug groups that have downed H Morchok, but w/e we'll go with a conservative number.
With a 10 million subscriber base (subscriptions, NOT players), that's just about 10% of the subscription base that have downed a Heroic boss.

I think this 1% of the player base that like heroic raiding is vastly underrated.

I know two players who both have multiple 85s raiding at heroic level with more than one guild, one of whom raids four healers at heroic level.

That puts those numbers in a whole new light.

[tawnos]

I don't like the idea of combining lockouts for LFR and normal mode. I think you're doing exactly what you've said not to do with attunements - conflating the failure of past implementations from non-related factors with a failure of the concept. The error in DS was in balancing itemization not that people got burned out because they "had" to run LFR and normal/heroic raids. The ilvl system exists for a reason and while its not a problem to occasionally create situations in which even a few pieces of gear are better despite being a lower ilvl, doing so on a systematic basis for an entire tier is just a design failure. When people across a wide (maybe even comprehensive?) spectrum of classes/specs are saying 'I need to replace a number of my 391 items with 384 items' that is the rather clear issue that needs to be fixed and avoided. Maybe making LFR a half-tier lower ilvl in the future (i.e. the same as the previous normal modes) would help but if you have heroic gear or even normal mode gear from the previous tier you shouldn't have any driving need to do LFR to enhance progression in the current tier just because the gear should innately be balanced (again, excluding inevitable but minor exceptions) to the point that you don't want to broadly replace your gear with equal or lower ilvl gear. If someone is driven to burnout by minmaxing to get that one exceptional item then just as with alt fanatics that burnout is of their own making and not systemicaly driven.

If Blizzard wants to fundamentally alter the mechanics of a spec's rotation/cooldowns they should do so through ability changes and never through itemization. Tier bonuses are meant to be small additions for matching sets of gear not a means of altering how a spec is played.

[Lrot]

With regard to raiders feeling the need to run LFR for set bonuses, would it solve the problem if the set bonuses from LFR gear didn't work with normal or heroic gear?

[tawnos]

I know two players who both have multiple 85s raiding at heroic level with more than one guild, one of whom raids four healers at heroic level.

That puts those numbers in a whole new light.

I raid in a 10m and 25m working through the lower levels of heroics (both stuck unsurprisingly enough on the early stages of spine) and have been trying to make another run just starting on heroics. However, I don't come across many other people doing the same thing so I don't think this would skew the numbers very much. The 1% mark was from Sunwell i believe so its not surprising that the number of people doing 'hardcore raid content' has gone up as the current heroics are substantially easier (as the Blizzard forum nerdragers constantly drone on about).

[Lrot]

I raid in a 10m and 25m working through the lower levels of heroics (both stuck unsurprisingly enough on the early stages of spine) and have been trying to make another run just starting on heroics. However, I don't come across many other people doing the same thing so I don't think this would skew the numbers very much. The 1% mark was from Sunwell i believe so its not surprising that the number of people doing 'hardcore raid content' has gone up as the current heroics are substantially easier (as the Blizzard forum nerdragers constantly drone on about).

I agree with your basic assumption, but the truth is, we have no idea.

Injecting my personal feeling for a minute, I ran both 10 and 25 man ICC twice a week for months.
Because it was always fun, no matter the outcome.

I just don't enjoy DS.
Maybe others feel the same, and stopped for the same reason, difficulty or ease notwithstanding.

[Jericho]

The majority of the player base hasn't set foot in a normal raid, so you can take that 10% and confidently reduce it to sub 5% I'm guessing. Not to mention that most guilds that raid also have a large % of players who don't participate in the raids. I agree with Lore, time to face the music that the progression raider is a minority.

While I can not disagree that the heroic progression raider is in the minority, I would say that this is nothing new. The % of the playerbase that would consider themselves as heroic progression raider is greatly increased over that 1% that saw any boss in Sunwell. So I ask you where do you get the thought that the majority of players hasnt set foot in a normal raid?


I will disagree with Lore when he says, "There are tons of stuff to do in World of Warcraft." I would ask Lore and anyone else who may wish to answer that if they truly believe that Lore's premise of "Cata raiding was harder, so they lost subscribers." I would offer the premise that there has only ever been really 4 major things to do in WoW. 1) Dungeons/Heroic Dungeons 2) Raiding of any sort 3) Dailies and 4) PvP. You could say that there are "Professions", "Loremaster", "Achievements" and "Alts". I would counter with the simple fact that other than the 4, these other activities are merely a minor part of one of the big 4.

Its simple, the game has lost a lot of its luster. There are issues in the overall development of the game, but the core issue with WoW is that it simply has not evolved out of the "Dungeons, Dungeons, and Dungeons and oh we got some sort of PvP" game we all fell in love with years and years ago. WoW is the ONLY MMO that has lasted for as long as it has that never came to the point where it has added any really new game systems. With MoP we are finally going to see a few. How deep they are we won't know yet. "Scenarios" are something that I personally believe are being handled poorly as a new system. They are currently, just another version of a dungeon that is "easier" to put together from an art standpoint. Pet Battles, is the kind of "fun" little side offering that the game has needed for years. We need to start seeing alternate "non raid progression" activities. Somethings just need to be fun and give cosmetic and fun rewards rather than upping their valor point/ilvl count. Challenge Modes are simply more dungeons with a competitive aspect to it. They are basically trying to bring us back to the days of the original ZA. I can not find a fault in it on its face, but it is NOTHING new and nothing interesting. We need a new dev that is not afraid to try something new and give us something that may fail but may be really fun that will reinvigorate the game.

[Lrot]

We need a new dev that is not afraid to try something new and give us something that may fail but may be really fun that will reinvigorate the game.

While I may agree that WoW has become somewhat stale, Blizzard wouldn't dare risk 10.2 million paying subscribers to risk any sort of failure.

Although Cataclysm could very easily be considered a failure.

[Theotherone]

I know two players who both have multiple 85s raiding at heroic level with more than one guild, one of whom raids four healers at heroic level.

That puts those numbers in a whole new light.

I raid on 9 toons and 8 of the 9 have H Morchok (the druid has not done it yet); it's an easy fight, even pre-nerf. Not really fair to call it a heroic boss, I agree. My main is H 6/8 with cronic attendence issues really hurting us, and one of the alts (the DK) is H 4/8 from a pure pug - the nerf helps a great deal. I'd like to just get to H 8/8 then turn off the nerf and see how we do.

Normal Rag still proves to be the hardest normal boss for the vast majority of my server. Kind of bass ackwards that the "epic" end expansion boss is an easy kill and the previous tier end boss causes issues.

[Harikari]

@Mwawka

You're right, I did not account for players that run multiple toons thru Heroic kills within a guild group, however I also did not account for players that PuG. On Mal'ganis for instance, people are pugging 6/8 HM everyday.

But I think you're missing the point. Do you really believe those players that got that first heroic boss kill were content after they tasted blood? Or did having tasted that blood wanted more, even when the bar is set a little higher?

If everyone can complete all the content effortlessly, it's boring. Imagine if Tetris only had 3 levels.

[Lrot]

On the idea of awarding achievements for clearing content without using any available nerfs, I forsee a problem.

Let's imagine a scenario wherein a guild (or a player) runs a raid with a nerf, farms the gear, then does it without the nerf, and gets the achievement. The achievement will mean less if those getting it do so with gear looted with the nerf in place.

The only way such achievements could be considered valid is if there is one important restriction in place: if you down any boss with the nerf, you can never get the achievement for downing it without the nerf.

That should satisfy the hardcore community.

[ayashi]

Weekly marmot is rarely 20min long. PST usually goes over 40min.
Lore, have you considered making a decent pause when you reach midway ?

[isvein]

Hi Lore and the rest
I have an story to tell, according to questrion nr 4.

I have played wow since the start, I accualy got my CE-Classic the day before release here in Norway.
I have never seen myself as anything hardcore, maybe an hardcore collector since I have all CE of wow, SC2, D3.
I picked up wow because I loved WC3 and the WC universe.

For me, and I know Im not alone, classic was too hard, in more than one way. I never managed to level an char higher than L40, I never got into an guild that could help me advance (at least on the server I played, cant remember who, it was not easy to get into an good guild unless you know the people from before).
So I never did raid during classic, for me and a lot of my friends that was something only the elite had access too. That dident mean I dident had fun and I stll have a lot of fun outside rading.

During late BC, I managed to level (on an diffrent realm) an char up to max level, but it was kinda late in BC, so I never did any raids there ether then it was currant.

From Wrath, I was rading Naxx from the begining, ulduar and ICC. I remember we raided the first wing in ICC before the rest was open. Only to be in an nice guild and have the gear and stuff to be able to raid an new raid so early, it made me feel sucessfull, even if it only was 10man and even if I never got the LK kill while it was currant. (the guild splitted up and stuff)
Still, Uld and ICC are the best raids for me, ICC beeing a bit more special.

Because I changed main, moved server and needed to find an new guild, I never did raid FL then it was current.

Anyway, for me, things was not accessable before BC/wrath then it comes to rading, so Im happy over that things have been more easy in that way, but I dont like RF so mutch because its too easy (I do like an chalange and I mean it have to be hard stuff in wow) but I find it nice to learn the basic of the bosses.

I hope the raids in MoP is not as hard as Cara raids at normal, but I hope they are on HC mode

[Toypop]

For the record, Toypop, plenty of healers had no issue at all healing pugs in early Cata, mostly because we had a clue.

Also, breaking news...sometimes groups will fail and wipe. It happens. That doesn't mean anything is broken.

This is a very immature, simplistic and thinly veiled personal attack more befitting of the official forums than Tankspot. Or has this site stooped to those sorry levels? When failing to comprehend the wider issues involved and struggling to put forward an intelligent argument just revert to the old “L2P nub” phrase eh?

Yes plenty including myself did clear 4.0 heroics in DF. But we were in perhaps the top 3% of healers on our realms and even then it was like pulling teeth and a lottery dependent on who DF allocated to you. How did the average Joe get on? Our personal experience/cool story is far better than the general experience of the majority. “Plenty” quit the game, we know that for sure.

A large percentage of runs were mathematically impossible to heal. Not just talking about a few wipes – we are talking about the groups being non-viable from the start. Of the runs that were completed, many took hours and a large number of leavers/joiners before a viable group formed.

You don’t seem to understand that 5 man dungeons are not heroic raids and the majority using them are not heroic raiders. As Blizzard themselves have said; 5 man dungeons are not aimed at that market and are intended to be bite sized “lunch break” content that pretty much always succeed with no more than a wipe or two.

Crucial point: the people that run this content don’t have the same tolerance level, commitment level or free time levels for WoW as HC raiders. You must stop assuming that the majority have the same preferences and lifestyle choices as you. The majority don’t enjoy spending entire evenings dying without succeeding when they could have been playing another game or in a bar.

You also sound much like the DK who shouts “stop using flash heal, that is why you are going oom”….whilst he stands in fire doing 4k dps and half a dozen mobs with no CC or interrupts hammer the tank... The issue was not that healers (even pug healers) didn’t know how to heal efficiently!


I came to 4.0 having been clearing HC raids in Wrath. In that content we were focussing on maximum HPS and spamming like there was no tomorrow as the spiky incoming damage in relation to health pools meant we were always within a GCD of someone dying.

In 4.0 we were promised larger health pools and a steady stream of incoming damage albeit with less mana to waste. The actual healing experience in 4.0 DF heroics was nothing like that. My experience was almost identical to what I saw in Wrath Heroic raids. The incoming damage was enormous in relation to the health pools and exceeded the HPS of our efficient heals whilst the only tools we had to keep people alive drained us dry before the pug DPS had taken a boss down to 50%.

That was not “working as intended”. In most groups we were being asked to produce outputs that Blizzard clearly hadn’t envisaged or equipped us to produce. The incoming damage exceeded the levels intended by the designers because they failed to consider how typical groups would play – despite ample warnings. The game WAS broken as it didn’t work for the majority that use it.

[Bovinity]

Ok, so you posted a wall of text to yet again complain that players who don't play well or make mistakes will wipe. Not sure what you want us to do about it.

[Leucifer]

This is a very immature, simplistic and thinly veiled personal attack more befitting of the official forums than Tankspot. Or has this site stooped to those sorry levels? When failing to comprehend the wider issues involved and struggling to put forward an intelligent argument just revert to the old “L2P nub” phrase eh?

Toypop.... are you reading your own argument?.....

Yes plenty including myself did clear 4.0 heroics in DF. But we were in perhaps the top 3% of healers on our realms and even then it was like pulling teeth and a lottery dependent on who DF allocated to you. How did the average Joe get on? Our personal experience/cool story is far better than the general experience of the majority. “Plenty” quit the game, we know that for sure.

A large percentage of runs were mathematically impossible to heal. Not just talking about a few wipes – we are talking about the groups being non-viable from the start. Of the runs that were completed, many took hours and a large number of leavers/joiners before a viable group formed.

You claim "mathematically impossible to heal".... yet you flip it around and point out that this problem was due to the actual PEOPLE playing. It wasn't that the encounters were "mathematically impossible"...... they were impossible only from the standpoint that you had REALLY REALLY LAZY PEOPLE who would do incredibly dumb stuff.....

You don’t seem to understand that 5 man dungeons are not heroic raids and the majority using them are not heroic raiders. As Blizzard themselves have said; 5 man dungeons are not aimed at that market and are intended to be bite sized “lunch break” content that pretty much always succeed with no more than a wipe or two.

Crucial point: the people that run this content don’t have the same tolerance level, commitment level or free time levels for WoW as HC raiders. You must stop assuming that the majority have the same preferences and lifestyle choices as you. The majority don’t enjoy spending entire evenings dying without succeeding when they could have been playing another game or in a bar.

You also sound much like the DK who shouts “stop using flash heal, that is why you are going oom”….whilst he stands in fire doing 4k dps and half a dozen mobs with no CC or interrupts hammer the tank... The issue was not that healers (even pug healers) didn’t know how to heal efficiently!

Again, you make this sound like heroics are equivalent to heroic raiding. Let's break this down, shall we?

"As Blizzard themselves have said; 5 man dungeons are not aimed at that market and are intended to be bite sized “lunch break” content that pretty much always succeed with no more than a wipe or two."

Correct. Not more than a wipe or two. However, MANY players will freak out and have a stroke if there is even a single wipe in a heroic. MANY TIMES, these same players are the aforementioned DK (which I take offense to, it's usually the fail rogue who thinks they're awesome because they're playing a rogue) who is simply just doing stuff wrong, but is/was so used to being able to sleep walk through material, that the adjustment is not being made.

What you're completely missing is that, MANY of the heroics at the end of Wrath were simply "walk-in.... stomp face.... walk out". So many of them were essentially outgeared by the players. The exceptions?.... the ICC ones. I can tell you that MANY people walked into HoR and thought, "Oh, we'll just breeze through this".... when they didn't realize that the content there was set up as the pre-end-of-expansion heroic.

Yes. The DK that is NOT DOING THEIR JOB is going to cause problems for the healer. And, it's not surprise, that to them..... it's "not my fault!".

You're stating that the heroics were broken, when what was really broken, was that people failed to adapt to what they were presented with. instead of waking up..... and using things like interrupts.... and cc's.... and being selective about their targeting..... they simply approached the game in the same exact manner which they approached a "heroic" dungeon at the tail end of Wrath.

But, once again, because people were "used" to just rotflstomping shit in Wrath, they viewed that Cata heroics should be the same way! Sadly... the reality was, that heroics.... were once again as they were at the release of Wrath. They were ..... *gasp*..... challenging, instead of being the loot pinatas they were used to.

Mind you.... once again though, now that we are at the end of an expansion, you're probably hearing the same old song and dance about "heroics being too easy" and such.

I came to 4.0 having been clearing HC raids in Wrath. In that content we were focussing on maximum HPS and spamming like there was no tomorrow as the spiky incoming damage in relation to health pools meant we were always within a GCD of someone dying.

In 4.0 we were promised larger health pools and a steady stream of incoming damage albeit with less mana to waste. The actual healing experience in 4.0 DF heroics was nothing like that. My experience was almost identical to what I saw in Wrath Heroic raids. The incoming damage was enormous in relation to the health pools and exceeded the HPS of our efficient heals whilst the only tools we had to keep people alive drained us dry before the pug DPS had taken a boss down to 50%.

That was not “working as intended”. In most groups we were being asked to produce outputs that Blizzard clearly hadn’t envisaged or equipped us to produce. The incoming damage exceeded the levels intended by the designers because they failed to consider how typical groups would play – despite ample warnings. The game WAS broken as it didn’t work for the majority that use it.

Blizzard DID equip the groups with the tools and outputs to handle things. The problem was that simply.... PEOPLE DIDN'T USE THEM. This is pretty much like me sitting and trying to loosen a bolt with a pair of pliers when I have a toolbox with a socket set sitting right behind me. I'm using the wrong tool for the job and being an idiot, thus, I shall suffer.

I will agree that 4.0 dungeons were a bit rough..... but by and large, that had more to do with people NOT adjusting to them.

I'm sorry, but your argument would be like me saying, "Well shit.... Blizzard royally screwed up that raid. We couldn't just waltz in and dps the boss down. We actually had to do stuff like keep out of the fire.... interrupt their casts.... and tank the adds when the boss summoned those! WTF.... Blizzard... this was poor design and is broken!"


Again...... people were used to stomping "heroics" due to simply outgearing the vast majority of them and then "heroics" actually became a challenge again, as they were meant to be. Once people started outgearing them again, then people started saying they were too easy.

Blizzard will continue to have this problem, not shockingly, due in part to how they advance gearing. DS gear at the moment outpeforms everything else to such a startling degree that it makes MUCH of the previous content a joke. People don't see that the content has been marginalized by the gear.... they simply just think they're "better" and ignore much of what was previously a challenge.

And once again, when MoP hits..... they will be in for a rude awakening once again, because the GEAR will once again dictate to a large degree, what you can get away with.

[Mwawka]

@Mwawka

You're right, I did not account for players that run multiple toons thru Heroic kills within a guild group, however I also did not account for players that PuG. On Mal'ganis for instance, people are pugging 6/8 HM everyday.

But I think you're missing the point. Do you really believe those players that got that first heroic boss kill were content after they tasted blood? Or did having tasted that blood wanted more, even when the bar is set a little higher?

If everyone can complete all the content effortlessly, it's boring. Imagine if Tetris only had 3 levels.

I wasn't making a personal comment on my opinion of the raiding situation. I was only pointing out that the true number of progression hardcore players is still well under 5%, even with the stats you quoted. The reality is that a huge number of the Heroic kills in those stats would never have happened without the nerfs. I really doubt that more than 1-2% of the raiding population would have a H-Madness kill had Blizzard not brought the content to their level. I know I wouldn't. So, if Blizzard listened to the hardcore progression raiders and didn't nerf content, then they would actually only be listening to the 1% and not to the majority of players, thus hardcore doesn't really have a say anymore.

What's good for the hardcore progression raider is not what is best for the game anymore, because the skill cap of the best raid groups is so high that the fights have to be ridiculously hard to challenge them. That creates a barrier for anyone who would rather raid with friends, who maybe don't have quite as high a skill level, and progression barriers do cause people to quit. If we'd banged our collective heads against certain Heroic fights for too long we'd probably have quit raiding already, but the nerfs did allow us to kills stuff at a skill level appopriate for our group. Nerfing isn't about allowing people to see content, it's about giving them something to do. I don't want to have to leave my friends to look for a group with a higher skill level in order to keep progressing, so the current model works just fine for me.


@Leucifer

You make a lot of good points, but I would suggest that Blizzard has missed the point on what the real problems with the Cata heroics were at release. It was a problem with dungeon length and trash. You brought up HoR, I don't remember raging at wipes in there the way people did in Cata, nor people thinking it was TOO hard, just that it was hard. One of the reasons is it was a 2 encounter dungeon, so wipes didn't mean you were going to be there for well over an hour. The patience level was higher because the punishment for a wipe or a weaker group was smaller. If you got a bad group in Grim Batol with the ridiculous amount of trash, combined with difficult boss encounters, you could probably count on approaching 2 hours in there to complete it.

Rather than make heroics mindless, I would have preferred a number of different solutions to the problems. First solution to me is the first boss and last boss of every heroic should be the most difficult. The first boss should tell you whether your group can succeed. Back to HoR, if you could do the first event, you could do the second. There were no brick walls in the middle of the dugeon forcing players to weigh the time they spent in the dungeon vs the likelihood of succeeding.

Secondly, 3-4 boss instances only, anything longer is going to lead to massive frustration if wipes are occurring do to the time commitment people are facing.

Thirdly, less trash and more forgiving trash. If you want trash to be challenging, only one or two challenging pulls per instance, the rest can just be easy.

If they applied all these fixes, the boss fights can stay more difficult because the penalty for wipes isn't as severe, and let's be honest, the fun and challenge should be provided by the bosses.

On a different note, I would also love to see some 7-8 boss 5 mans on a weekly lockout that dropped RF level gear and were more of a time commitment and more of a challenge, but I don't see that happening .

[Toypop]

You claim "mathematically impossible to heal".... yet you flip it around and point out that this problem was due to the actual PEOPLE playing. It wasn't that the encounters were "mathematically impossible"...... they were impossible only from the standpoint that you had REALLY REALLY LAZY PEOPLE who would do incredibly dumb stuff..... <SNIP LOTS OF STUFF>

Yes most of your points are 100% correct.... indeed they are what I have been saying! The encounters were impossible in DF groups because the type of players there lead to massively increased healing requirements in comparison to guild groups.

Those are also the same lazy players that were using the DF in Wrath.

Shock horror they continued to use DF in Cataclysm. Now who would have thought that!? Were you shocked by that? Who was surprised when bad players turned up in Cata DF runs and the game broke as a result of Blizzard not tuning the game for the audience?

My entire point was that the content and the healing model broke when applied to the DF system that the majority use. The content where lots of lazy players are present because we only have an extremely limited kick system with which to filter them out.

Blizzard tuned content and healing that wouldn't work with the typical DF group created by their tool. They didn't update the DF tool to filter out the bad eggs that would use the system, so....er.....hello? What did they think was going to happen....?

I know what I thought was going to happen. It sounds as though Lore also correctly predicted what would happen although I don't actually remember seeing the comments he claimed to have made back then.

So...I know what you are itching to say right now..... your argument is based around the long established point that if players had learned to play, the content/healing would have worked in those groups. Therefore technically speaking the game was not broken. BUT WE KNOW THIS ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect that you, like Ghostcrawler and many posters on the official forums made the failed assumption that "players will improve and adapt if you make the content harder". That argument has been well and truly lost. So if the players don't adapt what do you do? Blizzard had a choice - adapt the content to the customers or lose the customers. They chose the former. Ah well QQ, I'd rather they fixed the DF tool to somehow filter out bad players so the content could be more challenging but I am realistic enough to know that won't happen as Blizzard want those bad players to pay them subs each month. Also QQ from Blizzard as they lost 2 millions subs each month due to something that many observers such as myself predicted.

Sadly you let yourself down with the rest of your post - trying to flame bait me by claiming that I don't understand that Wrath Heroics were faceroll. Seriously?? I mean c'mon mate, that is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Also yes there are people (a minority) that freak out after one wipe in DF. Sorry but I am not interested in whiney casual v hardcore debates. I have no loyalty to either camp so if you want a raging flamefest you should head to the official forums because I have absolutely no interest in discussing it with you.