Does Looking For Raid Truly Serve its Purpose?

[Kahmal]

I've been playing WoW since Vanilla and always intrigued by raiding. I was a very active raider during TBC and WoTLK. With Cataclysm I was unable to make the time to commit to a raiding guild and had to hope to find a potent pug for Firelands and such hopefully a guild run needing one more on a Tuesday.

When Looking For Raid was announced I was very excited. With there only being a single lock out in Cata one would run out of things to do quickerm, unlike for many players in WoTLK. I was also under the impression it would provide raiding content for people like myself that couldn't commit to scheduled raiding.

Naturally we all know LFR can barely be called raiding. The idea of queuing up for it made me sick and normally just went afk. Instead of queuing for LFR I feel like you might as well just /roll and have loot pop up in your bags if you roll over a 90. It pretty much ruined the game for me, because I still felt like I had to do it and I ended up not logging on at all.

So I"m trying to understand the logic behind the system. Is this for all players to see the content? Because I can just Youtube fights I haven't seen yet. Watching an encounter online I've never done such as Algalon isn't the same thing as doing it, in the LFR system there really isn't much difference cause you dont have to do anything.

Or is it supposed to provide a form of convenience like the Looking For Group system did. When LFG was released in WoTLK it didn't nerf the instance. Sure in Cataclysm Blizzard found a large amount of the community now incompetent to work together with strangers so they had to nerf the Heriocs but in blue gear Heriocs still require a good level of attention and the death of a party member or two can still cause a wipe.

I understand why Blizzard wanted to make LFR simple but if their simply trying to provide a full raiding experience, to casuals they could go about it a different way. With the way things are going I feel that Mist of Pandaria is going to be lame if we can just faceroll through the raiding content and get purplez through LFR.

A solution I have been thinking of is to shift LFR to a 10 man raiding format and shifting the difficulty towards WoTLK Naxxarams and the pugable version of Karazhan and maybe providing a buff similar to the one in Looking for Group. While Naxx was a joke it required more attention then LFR in its current state (where people can be healed through things they shouldn't be standing in, or where it can pretty much be solo healed entirely) In a 10 man format having dead weight can actually be a problem, and having people that couldn't dance Heigan or know how to use Mind Control on Razuvious could be cause for trouble. Bottom line Naxx as simple as it was and criticized it was still a raid and I personally still found it fun to do since it still required you to have your basic raiding principles.

Blizzard has done a good job making raids puggable and most successful pugs are done in a 10 man regardless. Looking For Group didn't start giving people an excuse to give half-hearted effort until they were geared enough to slack off in blues this couldn't be done so I see no reason why Looking For Raid should be the same.

The only issue I can see with this is more hardcore players might spend more time in LFR then they would like to, but the way I see it LFR drops rewarding gear and it should be somewhat earned.

[Dreador]

LFR exists for Brazilians to lol at how bad the American fatties are when the two BR tanks are standing on Ultraxions platform not taunting drakes down. It also exists to get good guilds their OP 4 set bonuses. Beyond that? It's a fucking headache. I'm thoroughly not impressed with anything new. Been tanking instances in the beta, and not only is there no story at all, there's nothing but charge>tclap. It's literally that. At least with HoT heroics there was some RP involved but this, this is just crap. Combined with the heroic failure that Diablo 3 is, I'd say I fell pretty duped by Blizzard.

[Gregasaurous]

I think LFR was overall jsut a misbegotton idea that sounded good on paper untill you realized the "raiding expeirience" really requires people committed to being there (even if it's just a pug) and not just trolling around cause they have nothing better to do. For me personally the only reason I'm still raiding Dargon Soil is because I enjoy spending time with my guild. In that situation LFR would never bring anything to the table. Blizzard may clame that in this system: "Everyone is seeing the content." That's almost as assinine as saying "Everyone who was commited to raiding in 4.2 got too see Heroic Rag." (see Lore's many rants) LFR is nothing like the actual raid, and roughly half of the people who do it would never have any buisness stepping into normal mode, even with the 25% nerf.

So in my opinion, LFR was Blizzard saying: "Oops, we didn't give the casuals anything to do this Xpac, lets put something out for them to bang their skulls on."

[Kahmal]

I think LFR was overall jsut a misbegotton idea that sounded good on paper untill you realized the "raiding expeirience" really requires people committed to being there (even if it's just a pug) and not just trolling around cause they have nothing better to do. For me personally the only reason I'm still raiding Dargon Soil is because I enjoy spending time with my guild. In that situation LFR would never bring anything to the table. Blizzard may clame that in this system: "Everyone is seeing the content." That's almost as assinine as saying "Everyone who was commited to raiding in 4.2 got too see Heroic Rag." (see Lore's many rants) LFR is nothing like the actual raid, and roughly half of the people who do it would never have any buisness stepping into normal mode, even with the 25% nerf.

So in my opinion, LFR was Blizzard saying: "Oops, we didn't give the casuals anything to do this Xpac, lets put something out for them to bang their skulls on."

Like I said though LFR is barely experiencing the content since you can pretty much go afk, meaning you might as well just see the encounter on Youtube since you dont have to do anything regardless.

LFR seemed nice on paper and I was excited about it, I was also concerned. Looking For Group screwed things up in the long run since as of now we dont have challenging 5 man content because of it. It doesn't mean that the 5-mans had to become a complete and utter joke. While easy they still require your attention.

I feel Looking For Raid should also require our attention therefore downsizing the format to 10 man while increasing the difficulty to Naxx or Karazhan level should be adequate.

At this point I cant see how LFR can be considered a success.

[IncD]

I see what Blizz wanted to do with LFR, and I think they really did want more people to see the stuff they spent so much time working on. That being said, yes, LFR did do what it was intended to: Let casuals see the raids, and see the end of the game (so to speak).

But I agree that there is a lot more that could be done with LFR. As a casual myself, the few raids I have been in were intense like nothing I saw in LFR, and while I had an idea of what it was I was suppose to do, the mechanics or the fights, and the attention to what you are doing, and well as what everyone else is doing, just wasn't represented in the LFR.

I do like the OP's idea of making them 10-mans. So while yes, you are still in a PUG, you have to pay attention, else the whole group fails. I imagine at first there will be a lot of angry people unable to get anywhere in LFR that way, but eventually a new breed of casuals will pop up (not anytime soon, but I could see it happening) that will know the fights and know what's expected of them.

Maybe there should also be a graduated system. Where you do a stripped down version of the fight, like the current LFR, then a full mechanics, but severely nerfed version, then a 10 man, then eventually perhaps even a 10-man H. But for that to work, Blizz has to have the metrics of the other players available to whomever is PUGing with them. If this one dude never moves out of the fire, well, perhaps he isn't the guy you want on your 10-man PUG.

[Kahmal]

Well in its current state doing 10 man UBRS back in Vanilla was more exciting then LFR. Karazhan was easily puggable and cleared in a day at some point in TBC, and Naxxaramas was the most puggable of all, yet still required you to not stand in stuff that hurts you.

Bottom line Looking For Raid should act like Looking For Group and provide us the convienece of easily getting into a pug and doing some actual content. Yes the content should be dumbed down but not to the extent where half the raid just afk auto attacks and can sit in void zones, not even Naxx let you get away with that. If its all to see content watch it on Youtube, there is a difference between seeing content and experiencing content. Your not experiencing much of anything in LFR.

Even with Karazhan and Naxx as easy as they were it was still fun to get a few friends together form a pug have some laughs and do trolly stuff. Only fun thing about doing LFR is going in there with a few guildies on Vent and laughing at how bad people are. Or stacking Paladins and rotating Hand of Salvation on tanks.

[Theotherone]

Only fun thing about doing LFR is going in there with a few guildies on Vent and laughing at how bad people are. Or stacking Paladins and rotating Hand of Salvation on tanks.

Aspect of the Pack on Haggra during lightning storm; summon people to Dragon Blight in Northend and watch them stand around waiting for the portal to open or summon to Eye of Eternity and start the Maly fight; spam healing rain, chain heal, or any other AOE heal,or go with druid friends and trade tranquility's when he purple globe is up during skittles trash; pop hero at the start or in the middle of any trash, taunt Amals away from plate just before they blow up; life grip people back through ice walls; aoe the blisterings; need on anything and DE what you can in raid (extra credit points for most Madness weapons and all trinkets), etc, etc.

[Fetzie]

LFR is a loot pinata for people without the time or the ability to join a guild and do the raids properly. So yes, it does serve its purpose.

[Quinafoi]

LFR is a condition of the problem. The problem is Dragon Soul itself. The LFR system was and is a huge success for Blizzard. Dragon Soul is stale now and will continue to decline. LFR suffers the same decline because that tier of content as a whole is declining.

Only fun thing about doing LFR is going in there with a few guildies on Vent and laughing at how bad people are.

I'm partial to taking a trip down memory lane. Like after killing Ultraxion looking at the DPS numbers and remembered when my numbers looked like that. Last night someone managed very competitive DPS numbers... for tier eight.

[Kahmal]

LFR is a loot pinata for people without the time or the ability to join a guild and do the raids properly. So yes, it does serve its purpose.

When you say do raids properly do you mean because they dont have a guild or because their just down right stupid?

My friend recently used a Scroll of Ressurection on me. Took the time to Transfer my level 80 Paladin to the server and level him up. I enjoyed the brief leveling content and 5-mans. Crafting some gear, doing Heroics and then the Hour of Twilight Heroics. I was really enjoying myself and about to renew my subscription till I realized the next step was LFR....haven't logged on since.

I dont see why they can't simply tune LFR to require a little more then basic motor skills. I am among those people without the time to join a guild, I want to go into a raid so I can raid, not troll....

[Theotherone]

They have said that normal raid difficulty is going to be about Naxx difficulty and I think normal DS was, which makes it very, very puggable. So even if you aren't in a guild, the normal raids should provide an avenue for people who sit between pure casual and former raider turned casual should be able to get into normal content.

[Kahmal]

They have said that normal raid difficulty is going to be about Naxx difficulty and I think normal DS was, which makes it very, very puggable. So even if you aren't in a guild, the normal raids should provide an avenue for people who sit between pure casual and former raider turned casual should be able to get into normal content.

I'm confused normal DS was Naxx difficulty? I haven't been around for awhile but pugging Dragon Soul around when it was released wasn't easy. Dont think most pugs got past Ultraxion because they would have at least one person doing as much DPS as the tanks. Hell even the orb boss was a problem. Nevermind Gunship 2.0.

[Tengenstein]

I think people remember naxx as being easier than it was due to the several years of over gearing it, that the mechanics where somewhat rehashed, and you could outgear the 10 man version with 5 man gear. I dont seem to recall being able to do patchwerk in 10 man if one of the dps was doing the tank dps,

[Theotherone]

I agree with Teng, Naxx had some difficult encounters for a normal pug that were up there with spine, gunship and madness. Guth kiting, Thaddius (++++++ -------); the Four Horseman, Hegian and the last two fights Shapp and Kel. On 25 man finding 2 competent Priests to MC the adds on Razuvious was a luck of the draw.

[Kahmal]

I agree with Teng, Naxx had some difficult encounters for a normal pug that were up there with spine, gunship and madness. Guth kiting, Thaddius (++++++ -------); the Four Horseman, Hegian and the last two fights Shapp and Kel. On 25 man finding 2 competent Priests to MC the adds on Razuvious was a luck of the draw.

So is your point that Naxx tuning for LFR would be difficult? I mean my main point is I feel like if you stand in fire (hint: something your not supposed to do) it should possibly kill you thus crippling your raid due to your negligence.

[Theotherone]

So is your point that Naxx tuning for LFR would be difficult? I mean my main point is I feel like if you stand in fire (hint: something your not supposed to do) it should possibly kill you thus crippling your raid due to your negligence.

I was just relaying what GC has said a while back; that Blizz wants normal raids to be about Naxx difficulty and LFR to be like Vault of Archavon/Baradin's Hold difficulty and that I thought they had achieved that. That being the case, normal raids are pretty puggable so that players that don't have time to dedicate to raiding, don't have to be limited to LFR.

[Leucifer]

I think people remember naxx as being easier than it was due to the several years of over gearing it, that the mechanics where somewhat rehashed, and you could outgear the 10 man version with 5 man gear. I dont seem to recall being able to do patchwerk in 10 man if one of the dps was doing the tank dps,

This...... ^^^^^^

Naxx at release wasn't a cakewalk. A lot of the problem (I think anyway) is people think Naxx was easy because they did it in ICC gear. I'd be willing to bet good $$$ that if you could pull up the stats, more guilds did Naxx in tier 9/10 than did in tier 7, and by a hefty amount.

Think about it this way.....
You don't see a lot of people with plagued protodrakes.... or <the Undying> or <the Immortal> walking around, do you?

EDIT:

I was just relaying what GC has said a while back; that Blizz wants normal raids to be about Naxx difficulty and LFR to be like Vault of Archavon/Baradin's Hold difficulty and that I thought they had achieved that. That being the case, normal raids are pretty puggable so that players that don't have time to dedicate to raiding, don't have to be limited to LFR.

Yeah. I'd buy that. LFR is about on par with Vault.... or maybe a little bit easier actually (frozen orbs butchered a lot of groups......). Normal raids are very puggable at the moment, but at the release of new content.... not really. That's definitely a bar the becomes easier to clear once people start running alts.

[Kahmal]

This...... ^^^^^^

Naxx at release wasn't a cakewalk. A lot of the problem (I think anyway) is people think Naxx was easy because they did it in ICC gear. I'd be willing to bet good $$$ that if you could pull up the stats, more guilds did Naxx in tier 9/10 than did in tier 7, and by a hefty amount.

Think about it this way.....
You don't see a lot of people with plagued protodrakes.... or <the Undying> or <the Immortal> walking around, do you?

EDIT:



Yeah. I'd buy that. LFR is about on par with Vault.... or maybe a little bit easier actually (frozen orbs butchered a lot of groups......). Normal raids are very puggable at the moment, but at the release of new content.... not really. That's definitely a bar the becomes easier to clear once people start running alts.

I strongly doubt that, Naxx was out for way too long for people to wait to be in Ulduar gear to finally kill Kel'thuzad. I do see what your saying in terms that Naxx could actually take a week to do or so when you were in blues and not the highest end guild, but once everyone was in Tier 7 Naxx was indeed a cakewalk there for I think LFR should be tuned to the WoTLK Naxx assuming your in Tier 7 gear.
I"m not saying encounters should get as challenging as Kel'thuzad or Sapphiron but you should actually have to worry about dying if your standing in something stupid.

[Fetzie]

We were trade-chat pugging all of Naxxramas10 and 25 and clearing it easily long before ulduar was released O_o