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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Value of Attunements

  1. #21
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    Attunements. Yes they have their place, yes as Lore point out they do still technically speaking exist in a way.

    There is however a problem.

    Debates on forums (in particular the official forums) tend to involve an extremely odious vocal minority for whom attunements quite simply mean "something to stop other people from doing MY special content".

    Sadly any rational debate tends to get lost amongst all that noise.

    I believe the attunements that pass my tests of reasonableness (informative but not roadblocking/time sink later in the exp) would do nothing to satisfy that vocal minority on official forums for whom such achievements would fail to achieve their own goals of denying other people access to content - despite that doing so offers no benefit to those individuals themselves aside from the pleasure of spite.

    I can see why Blizzard cannot be bothered. This is a shame as I often find myself in raids wondering just who these bosses are and why on earth I want to kill them! Clearly levelling is failing to tell that story in an interesting manner. Is that a case for attunements or a case for fixing the dire and repetitive levelling experience? Given the time it takes to get from 80 to 85 one must ask how Blizzard manage to achieve so little with so much.

    Or is levelling fine and it is actually OUR fault for racing through it? Then you must ask if we are so keen to race through it....why are we asking for attunements!

  2. #22
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    The sad part is that a lot of the raid instances' lore are explained during the leveling process (Firelands, Throne of the Four Winds, Bastion of Twilight). In other cases, the story for the raid is told passively (or aggressively in the case of Cutscene Soul) as you progress through the instance (Blackwing Lair, Dragon Soul).

    It's not really Blizzard's fault you missed that Alysrazor used to be that green dragon that you handed Fandrel Staghelm over to at the start of Mount Hyjal questing and later killed for her betrayal for handing him over to Ragnaros and subsequently gets revived by the Flame Druids as a giant flaming chicken. Nor is it their fault that you glossed over it was the Lord of the South Wind Siamat that gave the Neferset back their original pre-curse-of-flesh bodies using powers given by Deathwing, who is a lackey of Al'Akir the Lord of Wind who is behind all the Tol'vir trouble in Uldum (whose son you killed in the *cough* Thunderfury, Blessed Blade Of The Windseeker *cough* questline so no wonder he's not on our side) it's kind of obvious you'd go after him and meet Siamat's North, East and West bros in there as well.

    I guess you have the dungeon journal now for brief blurbs on the lore of each instance and boss, but a little more traditional narrative is there for people who pay attention, care about past and present WoW lore, and don't have ADD. You could put an attunement quest to bring people up to speed, but that's just admitting your lore delivery in the quest system is a failure. I don't think it's a failure on the lore delivery standpoint if people don't pay attention and then complain that they didn't know they had to pay attention.

    This could work, however, for the pre-expansion lore that goes into novels and such. I was kind of expecting this from Cataclysm when it gave you that quest at 80 that sent you to the Maelstrom to talk to Thrall, however it wasn't as all-encompassing as I'd hoped. Something like a 'previously, on World of Warcraft' cutscene at the start of an expansion that gets you up to speed on the state of the world between the two expansions that isn't told in-game.

    I don't really think you need attunements to tell the story of an instance when the delivery systems in place work fine for those that care about that stuff. If you really want to know the lore pay attention while questing, or ask someone who paid attention while questing. Even things like the Hour of Twilight trio of dungeons and the ICC 5 mans in LK do well enough to set the scene for a raid instance, and doing three 5-mans once is hardly much to ask if you want the lore. Do you really need to make it necessary to enter a raid instance as an attunement though? I don't think you need to put those kinds of restrictions on people that have no need or care for either the instances or the lore.
    Last edited by turboether; 07-07-2012 at 06:09 AM.

  3. #23
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    I really feel that the part that you are covering here is from a answer to people that was saying to what tawnos refer, nothing about how good attunements could be.

    Now about the lore of the game and the background of each boss, I think that instead of adding more quests they could polish how they tell the story in the leveling process, I remember the quests from Hyjal that pointed to FL raid, it was clear what was going on but Hyjal wasn't mandatory. I feel the way they did it there could work, they just need to do it better and in a more complete fashion, they just need to make sure that you know your villains before you kill them but you don't really need extra content to do that, you could include it in your leveling, now I feel that they know they need to give us background because they intend to create villains that will go on in the story of Azeroth for future content, we'll se how they do that in the whole expansion. In addition, in the same thread the last post from Dratzal says:

    The Lorewalkers faction should prove very interesting for all those of you that enjoy discovering the lore of Azeroth :-)

    Maybe they could include the lore of the raid instances there. I don't know if they are doing it.

    Something that was already mentioned was something similar to what Rift does with 2 quest chains that you do across your 50 levels. You end with a epic shoulder, head and weapon slots covered, ready to raid tier 1.

    There are lots of slots, one pre-raid bis item could be from a chain quest that makes sure you get in touch with the raid bosses and their lore. This way you wont' do it unless you want/need the item, which wont do anything next tier, so it wont stop anybody that tries to catch up. Same thing when you have a alt months after.

    Maybe some event for the next tiers in the expansion when you fight one the bosses like a world boss, he kick ass while he talks how evil he is.

    What I say is that there are ways without attunements to accomplish what you want. I feel that the lack of lore in the raids is something that blizzard should fix, it will help how everybody feels about them, but I'm not sold in the idea that attunements are the number one solution.

  4. #24
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    Attunements not a fan

    As someone who raided back in vanilla and TBC my memories of attunements are ones of total annoyance and sheer grinding, to the point where most of the player base never did them and raid dies because of them.

    I remember runs to UBRS being disbanded because nobody had the key, same with the runs to scholo and strat (but less so), attunement to MC thankfully was easier but still involved a full time consuming BRD run to get it (to say nothing for the resistance gear farming needed to survive in there). Even blackwing lair raids, you would assemble the group for that night's raid only to discover some raid members are not attuned and have to spend a good portion of your raid time running people through UBRS before you could go inside.

    Thats before we talk about the TBC attunements involving multiple heroics, and raids that require farming final bosses from previous tier.

    The lore itself is great when it is told during levelling and optional quests but I am not a fan of forcing anything on players before they raid when grinding up the gear on a new toon to reach raiding level is more than enough on its own. As others have said firelands showed a ton of lore development both during levelling and with the new daily hub that was interesting, the Thrall questline as well was very well done.

    Attunements in wow always seemed to fall into that same category shared by resistance gear of artificial mechanics designed to delay progression through content, make the quests too long and difficult and players will be annoyed at doing it multiple times on multiple characters.

    The game is much better off without attunements or resistance gear.

  5. #25
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    Doesn't blizzard still have attunements in some form? You couldn't do Well of Eternity without doing Endtime. Tacking "you have to do all 3 of these dungeons" onto a requirement for queuing for Dragonsoul LFR? There's your attunement. Blizzard really make me throw up my hands in despair and shock at the retardedly narrow-minded or flat out stupid responses they're giving on forums lately, the EU "1% of the Eu userbase only speaks polish, so we won't reply to the huge majority of english posts" reply was similar.

    I also don't think going out of your way in a 5man dungeon for attunement would be so bad, I agree you shouldn't be dragging 24 other people through a raid, going out of their way for attunement. But if 4 other people in the guild aren't willing to run a 5man? That guild has no business raiding if they're not willing to put in that little effort to help a guildy attune for a raid. I suppose you can make an argument for it hurting pug-raiders, but they've got bigger things working against them, if they can find 9 people to run a raid, they can probably find 4 to attune for it.

  6. #26
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    One thing I'd like is a return to the Nightbane style attunements. A long quest chain that only requires one person in the raid group to have complete to unlock an additional boss in the raid zone.

  7. #27
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    I like attunements, but at the same time I don't. When I was doing my attunement to Kara, i found it annoying, but when I got my key, I was really excited. That was the first time I felt like a real player. I was now able to walk into raid. I could now play with the rest of my guild. When they took that out, I was annoyed. I felt "Hey I had to do all that work, now these new guys don't?" I would like to see attunements, possibly not as long and drawn out, but something that adds to the story and the lore while giving us, the players a sense of accomplishment. When you work hard for something, you appreciate it more. At work, when I bust my ass for a big sale and finally get it, I get a sense of pride. I feel like I've earned the right to crack a beer and put my feet up. The same rules apply in game. You can down 2 or 3 bosses in a row and its cool. You put down that one pain in the ass boss you have been getting to half health for a month and you want to celebrate. I get that same feeling from completing an attunement. So, yeah, I would love to see some attunements return to the game.

  8. #28
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    As someone who raided back in vanilla and TBC my memories of attunements are ones of total annoyance and sheer grinding, to the point where most of the player base never did them and raid dies because of them.


    Attunements don't have to come with the painful part. That is what people are having trouble separating. You can get the good parts of attunements (increased involvement in the story) without the painful parts. Here's how:

    - Make them solo quests, or possibly needing to clear one heroic dungeon. These are easy things you can do on your own time, that is the key. You could also make them part of the leveling process, which would be very nice as well. The one thing I actually liked about the Hodir questline is I felt like I was doing something to make me a better raider (getting that shoulder enchant) while leveling, which was pretty nice.

    - Do not link attunements between tiers. You don't have to clear all of t11 in order to run t12 or t13.

    - Remove attunements for content once the next tier is introduced. (So when DS is released, you no longer need to do an attunement to run Firelands).

    There you go, attunements without the painful bits. Just the increased involvement in story.

  9. #29
    Attunements don't have to come with the painful part. That is what people are having trouble separating. You can get the good parts of attunements (increased involvement in the story) without the painful parts. Here's how:

    - Make them solo quests, or possibly needing to clear one heroic dungeon. These are easy things you can do on your own time, that is the key. You could also make them part of the leveling process, which would be very nice as well. The one thing I actually liked about the Hodir questline is I felt like I was doing something to make me a better raider (getting that shoulder enchant) while leveling, which was pretty nice.

    - Do not link attunements between tiers. You don't have to clear all of t11 in order to run t12 or t13.

    - Remove attunements for content once the next tier is introduced. (So when DS is released, you no longer need to do an attunement to run Firelands).

    There you go, attunements without the painful bits. Just the increased involvement in story.


    Sure, you can do that. What does it prove, though? If you make it so that it's completely trivial and simple to grind through the attunement process, what have you brought to the table for the player? Just a pointless timesink that forces them to go back and do things they might have missed, skipped, etc. And for what? To lock them into watching some story that most people don't even care about, or already know, or sucks, or...you get the idea.

  10. #30
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    Sure, you can do that. What does it prove, though? If you make it so that it's completely trivial and simple to grind through the attunement process, what have you brought to the table for the player? Just a pointless timesink that forces them to go back and do things they might have missed, skipped, etc. And for what? To lock them into watching some story that most people don't even care about, or already know, or sucks, or...you get the idea.
    That assumes that no one wants to see the story. As lore said, what that usually means is "we just want to get to the game." Make it part of the game, not something you have to watch on the side.

    That's the difference between painful story and engaging story.

    For example:

    The first time you did Culling, it was pretty cool. The 600th time you had to watch that crap? painful in the extreme.

    HoT 5 mans? Painful, because they basically take over playing the game for you (especially the well of eternity). The lesson of vehicle encounters is that on the whole, we like playing our characters, not vehicle games or glorified movies where the outcome is basically assured and the fight mechanics are nerfed by NPCs.

    Uldum? Painful. OMG ANOTHER CUTSCENE! AAGH!

    Ulduar/Storm Peaks? Awesome. I still have fun doing the quests in that zone, which is saying something for me (I generally hate quests). When Thorim said "I remember you, in the mountains" - well, I remembered him too! Same goes for all those other bosses that had been woven into the Wrath leveling experience.

    The new Silverpine Forest. Great stuff, and I get levels too!

    Wrathgate? Awesome.

    Most of DS? I just noticed today that Afarastraz-what's-his-name actually has some sort of conversation you can listen to if you don't immediately take a fp to zon'ozz or yor'sahj. Also, we get it. The engines are damaged. Again. Okay?

    ICC and the Lich King - say what you want about Wrath, but the final Lich King fight and cinematic really was a home run.

    Thrall's dissecting adventure - Aggra is annoyingly clingy, but otherwise this was a fun little diversion, and the rewards at the end were nice. Aggra! Grow up! Be your own Orc! Thrall's just a navel-gazing loser!

  11. #31
    Sure, but a lot of what you listed has a lot to do with whether or not you were forced to do the content.

    Remembering Thorim? Sure, that's neat if you're into the lore, and if you're into the lore then you probably did the quests. Forcing everyone to do that? Nothing but a pain in the rear for the majority of people that just want to play a video game.

  12. #32
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    Remembering Thorim? Sure, that's neat if you're into the lore, and if you're into the lore then you probably did the quests. Forcing everyone to do that? Nothing but a pain in the rear for the majority of people that just want to play a video game.
    Everyone had to do quite a bit of the Hodir questline for the shoulder enchants at least once, or be a scribe. Not everyone was a scribe.

    Most of the lore in DS is pretty skippable, and it is still painful :P

  13. #33
    Everyone had to do quite a bit of the Hodir questline for the shoulder enchants at least once, or be a scribe. Not everyone was a scribe.
    I had a lot of scribes....

  14. #34
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    Before I played WoW, I played FFXI. To do any end game content, you had to do attunements. Most of the attunements were level capped events that were lower than your character's level and the gear didnt' scale down. It was frustratingly hard and I must have wasted tons of money and time on them. And yet, they were the most fun I ever had in online gaming. Requiring a player to actually do something to get something is a basic requirement of any surviving MMO. Blizzard doesn't have to make the attunements for raids gold sinks or time wasters if the reason you are doing them is worth the time or the money. If Blizzard were to make attunements a requirement for raiding, it would have to be either A) One person in the raid has the attunement and everyone can enter or B) Make the attunement worth going thru, either for an achievement or a slightly less than normal level item.

  15. #35
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    I'm going to be somewhat controversial here in my opinion, but I think that attunements, particularly long ones that require a large amount of effort (looking at you TBC) are not only fun, but should be REQUIRED.

    All of the previous posts on here have said whether attuenments were good or bad, and gave mostly valid reasons for those opinions. I thought of some solutions myself (and see that I was not alone) with things like making attunements account-wide and unnecessary for content that is no longer relevant.

    All things aside though, my opinion is that attunements should be mandatory for anyone who wants to raid. When I became attuned to Karazhan in TBC, (just like Ahterprong stated a few posts before this one) I felt like I was finally a real player, and could step into raiding. I liked having to progress through SSC and TK in order to reach the next Tier of raids in Mt. Hyjal and Black Temple. If you couldn't kill Lady Vashj or Kael'thas Sunstrider, why should you be allowed to try your skill against the next level of bosses?

    Granted some of the first few Bosses were easier than those two, but the principle of the matter to ME at least is that you shouldn't be able to move on to level 6 without first completing level 5. Along those same lines you shouldn't be allowed to raid until you have gone through your basic attunement.

    I view it in the same manner as any other type of job or sport;

    - You don't send a soldier into combat who hasn't first completed basic training.
    - You don't send out a quarterback who has never practiced football before.
    - You don't put someone at the cashier position of a store without telling them how to work the register and testing their basic math skills.

    Albeit attunements may not be INTENDED to be a training program for raiders, it does somewhat force that action on them.

    If I wanted to raid in TBC, I had to complete all of the heroics and quests in order to do so.
    I had to learn how to find them and complete them, forcing me to look to outside sources to research them.
    I had to run a variety of heroics (conveniently gearing myself up), and in order to complete them (at least back in TBC) I had to learn how to CC, pull, and focus fire.
    I had to make sure I did enough damage while taking the least amount of it, or else we could wipe and people would quit.
    I had to know what other classes could do in my little 5-mans so I could work better with them.
    I learned what Line-of-sight pulling was and how to do it effectively. I looked up what bosses dropped what blues/purples I could get before raiding, in order to be at my best when I finally entered Karazhan.

    With the game as progressed as it is now, I don't realistically see it changing back to this type of attunement playstyle, account-wide or not. With the "casualization" of the game over time starting in WotLK, people have become more accustomed to (and fairly opposed to anything but) simple, easy, drop-in whenever, drop-out whenever types of play, and that bugs me to pieces.

    I do hope, however, that they will not just completely throw away the idea of attunements simply because people are too lazy to spend the extra hours to work for what they actually want, because I miss that feeling. I miss feeling like an actual dedicated player, and being able to distinguish myself from someone who is not.

    If you want to just play a few minutes to press a button and get loot, go play with a gumball machine.

    Call it Elitism if you want, but it drives my motivation to play a lot more than what the game is currently offering, and I know I'm not alone. I'm just seem to be in the minority.
    Hunters never die, they just choose to commit suicide. Often.

  16. #36
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    I don't want anymore time sinks in the game. I don't think making content easier to access is bad, even if it can be considered "casualization" (I hate that word). Most of the arguments I read here, like Edd's for instance, seem to assume that anyone who can devote a lot of time to the game is a hardcore player. I don't agree with this assumption at all. On my server, I meet plenty of people who play a lot without accomplishing anything. They have tons of time because they're young, unemployed or single and can spend most awake hours playing the game. I can't, but the few hours every night I do play, I want to play the real game. Not some artificially inserted catch-up treadmill where the stuff I like, raiding, is out of reach because I don't have time to do tedious rep grinds or attunement quests.

    If you insist on gating content like that, then I'd argue for allowing people to pay real money to get past it. I don't really see how being able to spend 10 hours on a trivial quest line or grind expensive mats is any better than being able to pony up $100.

    To be honest, I find the whole MMO-progression model messy. Some things are gated by skill, some by story/quests and some simply by time. Often it is a mix of them all. I don't claim to be a skilled player, but I definitely prefer skill based to the current alternatives.

  17. #37
    I do hope, however, that they will not just completely throw away the idea of attunements simply because people are too lazy to spend the extra hours to work for what they actually want, because I miss that feeling. I miss feeling like an actual dedicated player, and being able to distinguish myself from someone who is not.
    So being a skilled player that downs content doesn't make you a dedicated, distinguished player...but just spending time does? Pouring time into even more meaningless bear ass collecting and farming JUST so someone with more time can call themselves dedicated and distinguished is a game design you're looking for?

    If you want to just play a few minutes to press a button and get loot, go play with a gumball machine.
    Play a few minutes, press a button and get loot? Really? So downing heroic content is just playing with a gumball machine but if we ask people to run through a bunch of junk tasks just for the heck of it, then they're "dedicated" and "distinguished"?

    Yeah, sorry, no. You're in the minority because no one wants to play that game anymore. Make the content better, harder, whatever, but don't just put up a wall in front of it that's constructed of bullshit and claim that it'll make people more "dedicated".

    If you're happy with "spending time" being the measure of a player, just go download ProgressQuest and watch it run for a week. Then you can call yourself dedicated.

  18. #38
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    Just make attunements part of the standard gearing up process or a simple quest chain that you can do on your own in half an hour, or in a group in 15 minutes. Like I've said in the past, the T11 attunements could have been Tol'vir heroic and VP heroic for Throne of the Four Winds, Grim Batol for Bastion of Twilight and Blackrock Caverns for Blackwing Descent. The Thrall's Soul questline could have been the Firelands attunement. Running through the HoT 5 mans could have been the Dragon Soul attunement.

    Those are all things that you SHOULD have done before stepping into a raid, because you needed some gear, either from JP, VP or the instances themselves to actually be viable as a raid member. They would take no longer than an hour and give you a bit of extra information about the raid zones (additional story in quest text or NPCs talking).

    You don't need the Trials of the Naaru, you don't need the "free akama" quest line. Just make it that a player has to do something to at least find out WHY they are going to a raid instance. That something can be what they would be doing anyway, just with another quest added to the instance. With the drive to get people out in the world they could have to go talk to an NPC in a zone related to the instance for example.

    Background: this was the attunement quest chain for Tempest Keep - The Eye:

    The Cipher of Damnation is an extremely long quest line in Shadowmoon Valley.
    "*" Indicates quests with rewards.

    Quest Line
    1[A] - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10680 - "The Hand of Gul'Dan"
    1[H] - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10681 - "The Hand of Gul'Dan"
    2 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10458 - "Enraged Spirits of Fire and Earth"
    3 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10480 - "Enraged Spirits of Water"
    4* - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10480 - "Enraged Spirits of Air"
    5 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10513 - "Oronok Torn-Heart"
    6* - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10514 - "I Was A Lot Of Things..." - Most annoying quest ever implemented in World of Warcraft.
    7 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10515 - "A Lesson Learned"
    8 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10519 - "The Cipher of Damnation - Truth and History"

    At this point, the quests diverge into three separate lines (which can be done in any order) for each of Oronok's three sons who will in turn help you obtain the three Fragments of Damnation.

    Quest Line I - First Fragment of Damnation
    1 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10521 - "Grom'tor, Son of Oronok"
    2 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10522 - "The Cipher of Damnation - Grom'tor's Charge"
    3* - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10523 - "The Cipher of Damnation - The First Fragment Recovered"

    Quest Line II - Second Fragment of Damnation
    1 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10527 "Ar'tor, Son of Oronok"
    2 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10528 - "Demonic Crystal Prisons"
    3 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10537 - "Lohn'goron, Bow of the Torn-heart"
    4 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10540 - "The Cipher of Damnation - Ar'tor's Charge"
    5* - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10541 - "The Cipher of Damnation - The Second Fragment Recovered"

    Quest Line III - Third Fragment of Damnation
    1 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10546 "Borak, Son of Oronok"
    2 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10547 - "Of Thistleheads and Eggs..."
    3 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10550 - "The Bundle of Bloodthistle"
    4 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10570 - "To Catch A Thistlehead"
    5 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10576 - "The Shadowmoon Shuffle"
    6 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10577 - "What Illidan Wants, Illidan Gets..."
    7 - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10578 - "The Cipher of Damnation - Borak's Charge"
    8* - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10579 "The Cipher of Damnation - The Third Fragment Recovered"

    After completing the quests for the three Fragments of Damnation, the lines converge and you need to kill one last boss.
    Final* - http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10588 - "The Cipher of Damnation"


    After completing the quest, you will get a message in the mail from Khadgar. If you go to Shattrath, he will tell you to talk to A'Dal, who unlocks the the three Trials.Last edited by Adys on 2007/11/12 (Patch 2.2.3)
    Then you got to do:
    Trial of the Naaru: Mercy (Shattered Halls heroic speed run)
    Trial of the Naaru: Strength (Steam Vaults heroic, Shadow Labs heroic)
    Trial of the Naaru: Tenacity (The Arcatraz, don't let Milhouse Manastorm die)
    Followed by
    Trial of the Naaru: Magtheridon (25m raid boss that was totally out of whack with his position in the raid progression)
    Last edited by Fetzie; 07-08-2012 at 04:52 PM.

  19. #39
    One of your best TWM episodes, Lore. Concise, clear, rational and well stated.

    Let's hope Blizzard listen.

    I shan't hold my breath, though.
    Unwavering Sentinel: Tales of a Protection Warrior Running Wild.
    http://unwaveringsentinel.blogspot.co.uk

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    So being a skilled player that downs content doesn't make you a dedicated, distinguished player...but just spending time does? Pouring time into even more meaningless bear ass collecting and farming JUST so someone with more time can call themselves dedicated and distinguished is a game design you're looking for?

    Play a few minutes, press a button and get loot? Really? So downing heroic content is just playing with a gumball machine but if we ask people to run through a bunch of junk tasks just for the heck of it, then they're "dedicated" and "distinguished"?

    Yeah, sorry, no. You're in the minority because no one wants to play that game anymore. Make the content better, harder, whatever, but don't just put up a wall in front of it that's constructed of bullshit and claim that it'll make people more "dedicated".

    If you're happy with "spending time" being the measure of a player, just go download ProgressQuest and watch it run for a week. Then you can call yourself dedicated.
    I'm not saying that "just spending time" is THE measure of a player. Skill/Intelligence/Awareness/Etc will all still have their obvious necessary roles. I'm simply saying that time spent should be A measure as well.

    And as far as "trivial time spent" goes, you could say that about anything. Make the bosses harder? Maybe. Make the content better? In my opinion (which is all this really is) adding prerequisites to raids would be an improvement. People have alts? Make it account wide like achievements and mounts.

    I honestly don't see why people are so opposed to the idea, aside from the fact that it is just and extension to the already pre-existing grind. And the grind is the thing that attracted players to this game. How many people do you see still grinding out old content for fun? Have you seen anyone that is/has farmed up a Thunderfury? Warglaives of Azzinoth? Ulduar/ICC Achievements? Chef/Salty/Professor Titles? There isn't even an improvement to your toon from doing these things other than cosmetics but people still do them because they are FUN.

    Like Lore stated in his video, sometimes you have to make the player have fun.

    As far as the gumball machine analogy goes, yes, at this point, downing heroic content is pretty much a joke. Hence why so many have stopped playing. The fact that I can pug a third of my raid and clear 8/8 heroic in 3 hours seems anti-climatic to me. My guild isn't even remotely server-first mentality either.

    You can be upset with my views if you want, but I don't believe I'm wrong.
    Hunters never die, they just choose to commit suicide. Often.

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