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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Value of Attunements

  1. #41
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    Ironically, many WoW players invest precisely as much into the lore as their characters likely would, given that their characters are almost always heroes-for-hire who provide assistance during someone else's allegedly epic story in exchange for first dibs on the loot. I don't know many greedy sociopaths in real life who care overly much about the backstory of some guy they're being permitted/encouraged/rewarded by their employers to murder, unless it helps them to do the job more efficiently, or to get a larger reward.

    WotLK's main story was probably the only time Blizzard really pushed to make a raid group a central part of the lore, and even then, that was the twist near the very end; it provided a greater payoff only to those players who had already been paying attention during the portions of the leveling process where Arthas made his frequent appearances. During Cataclysm, and especially during Dragon Soul (as Lore mentioned,) Blizzard abandoned that approach.

    If Blizzard is going to constantly cast the players' avatars - into which they encourage considerable emotional investment via naming, race/class selection, armor sets, professions, mounts, etc. etc. - as generic, fungible heroes-for-hire, and it actually wants them to pay attention to the lore so that dungeon and raid encounters can subsequently cash in those lore-chips for extra epic goodness, then it needs to think of how to incentivize sociopathic murderers-for-hire to learn about their victims.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Edd13Mac View Post
    You can be upset with my views if you want, but I don't believe I'm wrong.
    I think you're trying to deal with the subject pretty fairly, actually.

    Personally, the biggest tick-in-the-box for attunements is the fact that the game grew more quickly when endgame raid content was relatively exclusive, and grew slowly and DECLINED when everything was opened up the second the patch launched.

    Correlation doesn't equal causation, but it implies that this whole "raid or die" mentality doesn't actually speak to most of the playerbase.
    Unwavering Sentinel: Tales of a Protection Warrior Running Wild.
    http://unwaveringsentinel.blogspot.co.uk

  3. #43
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    I completely agree with Lore, attunements could be a really positive addition to the game and raid experience. I was late to the game and didn't finish levelling until late tbc, although I start in classic due to have maybe 3 hours a week in small blocks to play at the time.  My raiding in tbc was limited to a couple of Kara runs. I have since played through the Black Temple attunement - by overpowering old content, but it struck me that with the zones and factions only accessible at 70 and the whole attunement process linking into the raids it had a fantastically rich end game. It wasn't as great as if you only just levelled you didn't get a great sense of the story from questing in the zones.

    Wrath to me was the most balanced story telling, and was greatly aided by anyone with any lore knowledge from this or wc3 knew arthus, knew why he had to die. Naxxramus was also known to players levelling in classic. Cataclysm had some amazing story telling in 1-60, (and some crap story telling - especially on the alliance side) some poor/restrictive story telling in the 80-85 zones (Personally I did not engage with any zone except for twilight highlands - well I did in Uldum but that was too scripted and cut scene heavy) Deathwing was not a character I really engaged with, maybe as wc3 was my first warcraft experience - the whole story was also nosensical, at the end he can cast a world ending spell - so why make ultraxion or indeed mess around for 16 months. It is also a classic example of pointless raids - I am still clueless as to the story behind blackwing descent aside from containing 2 children of deathwing ressurected, what part did they play in the story? Al'akir yes he was a Deathwing ally, and had messed up uldum a bit but it was 4 dudes chilling on a cloud were was the immediate threat? Bastion was actually good.

    Too me the biggest thing about story in wow is that the game needs to be strongly narrative, which is to say that as you play through a section the story should be told through what you do (Hilsbrad foothills is a great example - with next to no reading of quest text and minimal cutscene usage you understand what is happening in the zone). That should be brought to the raids, they are working on doing that for dungeons in mists so why not the raids?

    I think scenarios could be a great way to help with the attunement, you need to do it queue for that scenario. That and a couple of quests can really tell a story.

    To address some points raised.; Some people probably want attunements as something to create another teir of separation to stop the 'bads' they are probably the same people that will then be on the forums crying as they cannot recruit enough raiders with said same attunement - and it is killing their chosen form of raiding.

    As to being made to do a short series of quests etc to experience lore, why not we will be made to run scarlet monastry and scholomance heroics for gear to raid even though they have no relevance to current story or indeed offer any outstanding challenge of skill. If one pre-requiste is not acceptable then why are others - follow that logic and then everyone has to have access to everything with no requirements of time commitment and you could extend the arguement to skill. Then every player can have everything immediately, a point pushed to the extreme but that is the logic behind that argument.

    People play the game for so many reasons, get enjoyment in so many ways, judge their success at the game in many ways and you cannot say anyone of those is the right way. So you will always end up doing stuff you don't necessarily want to do as a means to access the content you want. I would love attunements to come back, and I think Blizzard is missing a trick if they abandon them as a concept due.

    Occassionally it would do them good to present the game as they feel it should be and ignore vocal minorities, look how well the called for cata heroics etc worked out. SO by the same arguement if they don't feel attunements have value as a storytelling aid then let them come out and say that rather than the flawed post they did produce. I might not like it but I would respect the decision - rather then just see it as a lame-arse excuse.

  4. #44
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    Occassionally it would do them good to present the game as they feel it should be and ignore vocal minorities,
    Like they did in Classic and TBC. Coincidentally, that is when everybody says the game was at its best.

  5. #45
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    "GOAT BALLS"

  6. #46
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    In all seriousness, I agree pretty much entirely with your analysis, Lore. Raids are totally disconnected from the narrative of the game and that's a problem. Streamlined, well designed attunements would greatly aid in fixing this problem. hell, even a non-mandatory quest chain leading up to a raid would be a major improvement.

  7. #47
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    You want a streamlined, storydriven attunement? Read a book.

    Interestingly enough, even the pro attunement agruments are contradictory. Some want it to be hard so they can feel special for having completed it, some want it to be a streamlined story introduction. I don't see how it can be both.
    Last edited by Emerich; 07-09-2012 at 07:23 AM. Reason: I was a jerk

  8. #48
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    Ok, here's an idea for attunement that I could go along with:

    Entry to a raid costs 3 000 VP, payed once per char and that you can earn any way you like (assuming they are earned at the same rate as now). Inside the raid, all your gear is scaled to a normalized level and all drops in the raid are purely transmog pieces.

  9. #49
    As far as the gumball machine analogy goes, yes, at this point, downing heroic content is pretty much a joke. Hence why so many have stopped playing. The fact that I can pug a third of my raid and clear 8/8 heroic in 3 hours seems anti-climatic to me. My guild isn't even remotely server-first mentality either.
    Yeah, "at this point". Just because you can go back and kill heroic Nef, Al'akir, Ragnaros and Madness+25% Nerf in June/July doesn't mean that people who actually try to be "dedicated" players were playing with a gumball machine when they were relevant content.

  10. #50
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    Actually biggest issue I can see about atunements would be that most guilds raid on tuesday and it would be a nightmare to ask everybody to go do that quick so we can start the raid, then have late people who also have to do it, etc.

    So these attunement quests should be available PRIOR to the raid launch, like a mini pre-patch.

    If they could have been those solo scenarios like the Dragonwrath quests and the Fangs of the Father quest, it would be pretty awesome and interesting. But like somebody said, it should unlock it for your whole account, and you could get a nice achievement for it and it would unlock the portal to gain access to the instance.

    I noticed on Beta that some of the quests allow you to "preview" the dungeons, so it gives you a generic idea of what to expect, like the Stormstout Brewery. Again, a nice opportunity there to give clues on mechanics.

  11. #51
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    Some people like Attunements (like myself), some people hate them.

    There are a ton of compromises to be had without throwing out the idea of Attunements:

    * Guild Wide Attunements
    * Account Wide Attunements
    * Key attunements (only 1 person needs it)

    You could even have it so that if you've cleared the previous Teir you can skip the attunements.

    Attunements are immersive, TBC had a few downsides (which could be easily solved) but it was one long amazing storyline from beginning to end. Some people like the immersive MMO game play, other's want the CounterStrike style drop in and start-pew-pewing. Blizzard should cater for both, rather than just focusing on the CounterStrike model.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by poot View Post
    I don't know many greedy sociopaths in real life who care overly much about the backstory of some guy they're being permitted/encouraged/rewarded by their employers to murder, unless it helps them to do the job more efficiently, or to get a larger reward.
    You know people in real life who murder others for personal gain?

  13. #53
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    Like Lore, I'd like to see more lore heavy quests that delve into the story of the game. Wrathgate during Lich King was so awesome and perfectly done that I'm shocked Blizzard didn't try to top it during Cataclysm. That said, despite a rough start, I do think they did a better job as the expansion went on. I enjoyed the Thrall chain at the start of firelands and I thought the troll chain that reintroduced ZA/ZG and tied into STV questing was a fun.

    That's an approach I'm happy for them to continue. The Thrall chain rewarded a nice cloak for non-raiders, the troll quests rewarded a pet and unlocked extra quests in the dungeons, but I wonder if would help to expand the target audience of those type of quests. That is, make the carrot so tempting that even though the quest chain isn't technically an attunement most folks would want/need to complete it anyway.

    Say the reward for Thrall chain was your best in slot bracers. There is no less interesting slot than bracers, and maybe you had other options from rep or valor or crafting but BIS is BIS. I'm sure there would be some table flipping, but I think a one-off lore rich quest chain is preferable to tedious rep grinds for shoulder enchants (ugh, Hodir dailies...). The bracers will be outstripped the next tier, so such a quest becomes optional as the game progresses.

    It seems like the attunement thing seems part of a call for things to do that aren't raiding.

    I can only speak for myself, but the biggest issue I have with PVE WOW is that there is nothing interesting to do outside of organized raiding. LFD/LFR are tuned to the lowest common denominator have turned content into tedious chores. Daily quests get old quick and questing mostly exhausted before you hit 85.

    I WANT to play my character. I want to head out in the world and use my gear and do fun stuff and reap rich rewards. Right now the fun stuff is limited to raid night. It wasn't always that way.

    I does seem like they're adding more to do in MOP, so I guess we'll see.

  14. #54
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    To solve the problem of guilds losing players and then having to run new ones through it, why not make the attunement be something that is bound to the guild. maybe in the form of a guild achievement that takes farming, or whatever, from many members to complete. Then once the guild has the achievement any of their members can do the raid.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkitto View Post
    To solve the problem of guilds losing players and then having to run new ones through it, why not make the attunement be something that is bound to the guild. maybe in the form of a guild achievement that takes farming, or whatever, from many members to complete. Then once the guild has the achievement any of their members can do the raid.
    I'm against this for the same reason I hated doing group projects in a class. Me and one other person did all the work, and the rest of the group got credit for the work we did, despite them not lifting a finger.

    Also, you have to consider. If you make it something that requires many, how many guilds will "invite" players to help them get their attunement, and then immediately boot out those unwanted players once they get the attunement? Set this up wrong (and I frankly don't trust Blizzard to not screw it up), and you could end up screwing over a lot of people.

    This is one of those things that, if Blizzard screws it up, could be really bad for the game. I'd really honestly rather see them skip the idea of attunements again if they're not going to really put deep and serious thought into how to implement it correctly.

    For that reason alone, I say no. Don't do it. No attunements.





    No one tanks in a void.........

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    You could even have it so that if you've cleared the previous Teir you can skip the attunements.
    I'd support that as an attunement model.
    Unwavering Sentinel: Tales of a Protection Warrior Running Wild.
    http://unwaveringsentinel.blogspot.co.uk

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChampStanley View Post
    Like Lore, I'd like to see more lore heavy quests that delve into the story of the game. Wrathgate during Lich King was so awesome and perfectly done that I'm shocked Blizzard didn't try to top it during Cataclysm. That said, despite a rough start, I do think they did a better job as the expansion went on. I enjoyed the Thrall chain at the start of firelands and I thought the troll chain that reintroduced ZA/ZG and tied into STV questing was a fun.

    That's an approach I'm happy for them to continue. The Thrall chain rewarded a nice cloak for non-raiders, the troll quests rewarded a pet and unlocked extra quests in the dungeons, but I wonder if would help to expand the target audience of those type of quests. That is, make the carrot so tempting that even though the quest chain isn't technically an attunement most folks would want/need to complete it anyway.

    Say the reward for Thrall chain was your best in slot bracers. There is no less interesting slot than bracers, and maybe you had other options from rep or valor or crafting but BIS is BIS. I'm sure there would be some table flipping, but I think a one-off lore rich quest chain is preferable to tedious rep grinds for shoulder enchants (ugh, Hodir dailies...). The bracers will be outstripped the next tier, so such a quest becomes optional as the game progresses.
    Some good ideas, the carrot is definately a good way to encourage people but if they are putting the work in to make raids more relevant and epic it seems a shame to not have everyone experience. The idea of the bracers has issues as if your putting the BiS bracers as a reward you will never have access to BiS for offspec, and then you end up with loot drops from bosses that no-one wants except for offspec. Cosmetic items are possibly a good route.

    Actually biggest issue I can see about atunements would be that most guilds raid on tuesday and it would be a nightmare to ask everybody to go do that quick so we can start the raid, then have late people who also have to do it, etc.

    So these attunement quests should be available PRIOR to the raid launch, like a mini pre-patch.
    You could run this a pre-release event or on-release wrathgate style thing that can be done solo or as a group

  18. #58
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    Honestly, I loved attunements for the simple fact that it clearly separated players into 2 groups.

    1) Players who was willing to put a tiny amount of effort forth to obtain the carrots at the end of the stick.
    2) Players who are now / have been trying to break that stick and pick the carrots up from the ground.

    Sadly blizzard is convinced that the way forth is playing chainsaw massacre on that stick for group nr 2, and the more threads I see on various forums.., the more convinced I am that group nr 1 makes up the far larger proportion of the two.

    Great episode btw Lore and really nice to see you speaking your mind so freely about Draz.., ehm, the Eu community manager:-)

  19. #59
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    IMO,

    A developer should make every effort to never tell the player base how they HAVE TO play. It's a sure way to lose my interest.

    Make it rewarding enough that I WANT to do it.

    If the developer shouldn't tell me how to play, you can guess what I think about players trying to.

    I min/max (to the degree that I feel is reasonable). I think that is about optimal play which is different. If my spells/abilities only lit up in the order I was "suppose to" use them, I wouldn't want to play.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

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