The Weekly Marmot - MoP Valor Point Speculation

[Lore]

[laxu]

Personally I already don't like this new system if it's gonna be the way you describe it, my major issue being that I was able to gear up my off-spec(and alts) pretty fast thanks to the valor point items and it seems I won't be able to do the same in MoP, so how am I supposed to gear up my off-spec now? Upgrading uncommon and rare items with valor points? Going back to run normal 5-mans?? Also remember there's not even the possibility to loot Off-spec items in LFR or RDF with the new looting system

P.S: Did u already give away those BETA keys? I'd be sad if i missed it.

[Tengenstein]

You can roll need on offspec pieces in LFG presently (you may be considered a doucheif you do so but with the LFR generation I assume this behaviour will become the norm),LFG loot rolls work almost exactly as it does at present, it has a funky little UI element that pops up with the results and you can scroll back to see who won the previous bits, but other than that it's the same. In cata all level 90 dungeons are heroic, there are no normal level 90 5-mans. They all drop Uncommon loot with the little green Heroic sub-label. if you wat to gear up your OS in LFR, just queu in your OS, its not like LFR actually punishes you if you don't turn up perfectly optimised.

[Taedas]

ZOMG what not going to tell me how to send in a question for pst...oh hahah got me.

Valor points for me (end game raider) is really a non issue atm. When I get valor points I just look at them and say "meh I'll get a heroic upgrade sooner or later" So I am currently having the problem where VP are worth nothing!

As for making VP another step in making your gear ready to use - it doesn't really bother me I have to do so much to the item anyways already that what another step? More so because it's a mindless step as in there is no choice involved, so Ideally I would be able to do this step without an npc just open some profession like tab and do it myself. Even if they had choice involved in this upgrade some how I would just sim to find the best choice and then use that thus making it brainless again.

IMO, what they could do with VP is make it exchangeable for other goods such as gold, fun items, rep, skill up for professions(main and alts or just mats to use to level their professions), leveling gear for alts, mounts, pets, bonuses for the panada land farmville or bonuses for pet battles (i'm open to what bonuses are either of a fun nature or competitive nature(actually a buff)), and etc.

thanks for the vid
-taedas

[laxu]

Oh i see, thanks, but still as you said needing OS in random groups is kind of a douche thing to do if somebody needs the same drop for MS and while it's true that the game itself does not punish you if you suck, the players might by kicking you if the raid wipes, so yeah i still think that gearing up OS is gonna be significantly harder than it used to be

[dewski]

[Feral xrx]

I thnik it will work like a constant nerf, you would not be able to upgrade heroic items and you will be able to upgrade something like 1 item a month so if you get strunk in a boss your team could get 10 upgrade per month at least, this makes that even if you cant kill the first boss in heroic you will still having upgrades, so blizz dont need so many nerf, is like a raid based progresed nerf and not a worldwile nerf.
And you get rid of a lot of cry and people get to eventualy see the content.
Also it will help take raiders out of raid, lets face it, a LOT of raider only log for raid time, this will force them to play more outside raids, and people like it or not, thats what blizzards wants, that you play his game.

[Nagassh]

Remove head enchants because it's too much effort.

Add VP upgrades.

LOGIC.

[Tengenstein]

Oh i see, thanks, but still as you said needing OS in random groups is kind of a douche thing to do if somebody needs the same drop for MS and while it's true that the game itself does not punish you if you suck, the players might by kicking you if the raid wipes, so yeah i still think that gearing up OS is gonna be significantly harder than it used to be

the players might kick you anyway. I've been kicked because they thought my affdrain lock was a healer and wasn't pulling enough HPS. the vast majority of people who are awful in LFR don't get kicked. you can get 450ilvl crafted sets that outdo the quest rewards, which should let you OS HC fine, which should let you OS LFR fine, assuming you're actually any good at your OS.

[Lore]

Remove head enchants because it's too much effort.

Add VP upgrades.

LOGIC.

I meant to say something about that and forgot

But yeah, kind of silly.

[Bovinity]

Remove head enchants because it's too much effort.

Add VP upgrades.

LOGIC.

Apples and oranges. And it wasn't just because head enchants were "too much effort", they also tied into factions and caused people to become pigeon-holed into a particular faction based on who sold their head enchant...or multiples for some classes. Fine under the Cata system, but if there were to be another faction system where you had to choose between factions or something, then that'd just be silly design.

[Mwawka]

I am also one who's worried about how all the changes in MoP put together are going to affect the ability to effectively gear an offspec. Combos like Boomkin/resto will be fine, but I worry about Holy/ret and tank combos. Viable offspecs have become a really important part of 10 man raiding and the ability to obtain gear for an offspec has taken a pretty big hit here. They can't really hand over too much gear to the professions, because gearing up becomes gold based then, so basically there is a big hole in the system as it is being presented at the moment.

[The_Pancake]

Overall I think they're just trying to make a system for the sole purpose of justifying the existence of valor points. If they're too common then it's just something extra you need to do to every item you get and then they become worthless when you run out of items to upgrade. Or if they're not common enough then you end up with most people sitting on their valor waiting for their BiS to drop instead of upgrading what they already have just to avoid wasting valor since it's so rare. And I really don't think there's a way to balance it between the two, if you're unable to upgrade everything then you're ALWAYS going to want to avoid wasting them.

I think they should go back to the model they had in Wrath. Put valor gear back and let it be actual raid gear (ie don't try to make it inferior to boss drops), and make it so that you can't valor cap just by running heroics. Looking back at tier10, I think the overall max amount of frost emblems you could get per week was something like 81, and only 14 of them came from running heroics (and another 5 from the weekly raid boss quest, the one offered in Dalaran, not the one inside of ICC), even if you factor in that not everyone was full clearing 10 and 25 every week on top of the raid quests etc, raiders still earned around 2~3 times as much valor as non-raiders. So the vendor/valor gear WAS raid gear, non-raiders could get it but it took them a LOT longer (iirc even for your average raider it would take 2 or 3 weeks to buy 1 piece, so a non-raider took 4 to 6 weeks for 1 piece).

Cata started out with this idea, in T11 running heroics would only get you 490 valor per week and the cap back then was 1250 per week. The problem was when they added ZA/ZG they made them worth double the valor of the other heroics because they were harder (even though back in wrath when they added the 3 frozen halls dungeons they didn't offer any extra emblems), which let you basically cap out every week just from heroics, and then they just continued with this into T13. This destroyed the concept that valor gear was supposed to be raider gear that non-raiders could earn at a slower pace and completely changed the entire concept that valor was created to be.

That model actually fit the consolation prize idea. It took you a few weeks to collect enough emblems to fill out a slot that you really needed to replace without it feeling like bargain-store gear.

If they don't want that model anymore then just remove valor points from the game.

[Leucifer]

@ Pancake.......

I liked how frost emblems worked in Wrath for t10. If you were raiding, you were able to assemble gear more rapidly. If you weren't, you still could, but the pace would be MUCH slower. The only problem I really saw with it was, you were pretty much guaranteed a full set because of how long that tier lasted. Let's be honest, Halion doesn't really count.

I know one of the main complaints from some people, who I won't directly mention, was that it was a "tier set" that could be acquired without raiding. My response...... waaaaah.

So, why not make it gear that is a notch below the current raid drops? Comparable, but not ideal. That way, you don't end up in a situation where you're stuck waiting and hoping for one piece to drop of the last boss to upgrade the crappy piece you currently have. That was really about the only thing I didn't like about t11. There just really wasn't much as far as helm or shoulders that dropped (for tanks anyway) off of a non-end-boss.

Many of you already know my thoughts on the whole WoW gear grind. I'm not going to delve back into that argument. WoW is going to be what it is. I just think it'd be nice if Blizzard would think a little harder about things, and plot out their gear advancement a little differently. I still like ICC in that, you COULD progress your gearing without hoping and praying for the RNG gods to favor you. I remember looking at my toons and thinking, "Ok, even if I don't get a drop, I'll be another step closer to getting X, and that's currently about a week or so away. Good deal."

I also understand that Blizzard was overwhelmed with the sheer amount of gear that needed to be developed. 10N, 10H, 25N, 25H..... with 10's and 25's having different stuff and different levels (iirc), and N vs H having different levels... that is a TON of crap. I get that. But what they did with t11.... was equally wretched. Instead of just collapsing down 10's and 25's to the same gear with different ratios, with N and H being upgrades..... they also slapped the whammy on the vp/jp gear available by preventing us from getting shoulders/helms. Why didn't they just simply make all vp gear available (and ilvl 353) vice the raid drops (which could be 359 and a little more special and unique, maybe putting "set" pieces only in raid like some wanted)? THAT... is a prime example of what I mean when I say, "Blizzard takes what we ask for and then bastardizes it into something we didn't really want."

They DID kind of "fix" it with LFR and having the LFR gear being a notch below the normal gear. On the right track. My only issue here is that, I kinda twitch at seeing "raid gear" drop in LFR. Why not just have justice points or the gear from the dungeons drop? Give at least a little nod to the raiding community.

Anyway, that's really one of my major concerns about MoP..... that once again, we'll see some big change to the system, attempting to "give us what we want", but upon closer inspection, people will hate it because it's "what we want" viewed through some sort of f**ked up lens of distortion that the devs use. (I blame the official Troll.... er.... WoW Forums)

Give raiders a nod by making raid drops unique and a little better. Give them a tangible reward for tougher material.

Give the average Joe a nod by giving them something that gets their foot in the door. LFR to "experience" the end-game is nice. Just make it clear that that is really what this is for by making the rewards consummate with the current dungeon tiers or close.

[Gregasaurous]

Here's a thought: what if they make it so Valor upgrading is not possible with raid drops (LFR included). Make it so the Heroic 5man loot and maybe even the crafted gear only upgrade to a point just shy of raid drops. Casuals get their "good gear", raider's aren't given another mind-numbing chore to do for every single piece of gear because they HAVE too. Yeah, in the first month of each tier their might be some need for it, but after that it's just a non-issue.

[sodapopp]

best intro to the show ever!

[Yggdrasil]

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact they are putting in effort but it just seems like the valor system wasn't something that really needed a ton of time dedicated to it. IMO if they just took the exact same system they have now and added upgrade tokens or whatever to the vendor you in essence have what you want from the now and what you had in the past.

Honestly I just wish they made a lot of rewards with valor. The more things you can buy with them the more important they are and the longer they last and hold value (for the 'masses' for sure). Just seems like they are building this MASSIVE system around valor that rewards you with having to click in the UI a few times and magic numbers increase magically. Not that the item upgrade deal isn't a cool and fresh idea, but more that it seemed to remove more from the game then it really put back into it. If that makes any sense.

[Lore]

Apples and oranges. And it wasn't just because head enchants were "too much effort", they also tied into factions and caused people to become pigeon-holed into a particular faction based on who sold their head enchant...or multiples for some classes. Fine under the Cata system, but if there were to be another faction system where you had to choose between factions or something, then that'd just be silly design.

They actually said that part of why they liked the idea of removing head enchants was because there's too much "do all this before you can use this item" in the game at the moment.

It wasn't the core reason, no, but for them to say "we have this problem" and then do something that just makes it worse is silly.

[Edd13Mac]

Lore, what if the valor point upgrade system worked as follows:
(NUMBERS MADE PURELY FOR MATHEMATICAL SIMPLICITY)

Stage 1:
Cost - 500 Valor
Upgrades ilvl by 8 and stats by 40

Stage 2:
Cost - 1000 Valor
Upgrades ilvl by 4 and stats by 20

Stage 3:
Cost - 2000 Valor
Upgrades ilvl by 2 and stats by 10

I like this concept because it keeps the value of VP prolonged MUCH longer than how it is currently, and wouldn't just be a simple matter of reforging/gemming/enchanting. Questions like "Do I want to take my weapon to level 3 or get my chest and bracers to level 1?" will be an interesting way to spread out our upgrades and is a more interesting way to min/max a character. All the hardcore players with full T14 heroic BiS will STILL need VP to continuously upgrade their items (giving more motivation to go back and clear those bosses), and all the casual players might be happy with just upgrading everything to stage 1.

Just an idea I came up with when I heard they were going to upgrade items through VP in MoP. What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

[worgick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5sQL7q_IOI A refresher for those who forgot. A start for meaning for those who weren't old enough.........