The Weekly Marmot - How MoP's New Legendary Just Might Work

[Lirron]

If only there was a way to actually implement that.

Now don't get me wrong, I love your idea of the personal gain of your idea and everything and how you and 9/24 other players in the raid will still need to be raiding the relevant tier to get the items required, erm, I think what could be implemented, just as an idea, a class specific boss where a certain class has to pull something off, kinda like the rogue quest in Dragon Soul, what I'm referring to is the pick pocketing, I'm not sure how that would work but if they could implement something like that, sure you get the whole class argument "I want mine first!" but it could work if the had the normal design of the raids but just applied the class specifics to certain bosses in that design so that it's just normal progression but in some way, you have some special thing that certain classes feel prestigious towards instead of another farming thing.

[Lirron]

What if legendaries were simply a cosmetic reward for beating the content?

Their power would be almost exactly the same as the alternative item. What made them unique would be some nice effect.

Compare Dragonwrath with Lightning Rod (normal). Let's assume for simplicity's sake that both are obtainable in the same tier, as the 397 staff in Firelands has crit and mastery instead of haste and hit which makes comparing them harder.

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...;77221&focus=1

What if Dragonwrath lost the spell duplication? The Legendary would be a purely cosmetic upgrade with an awesome flight form use.
What if the hidden /use on Fandral's flamestaff for cat druids was a cosmetic addition to make a weapon "legendary"?

Then it wouldn't matter if everybody got it. It would have no implications for future tier tuning because a full legendary raid would have the same potential damage output as a non-legendary raid. It would stop setups with 8 of a single class wielding the legendary for a boss. It would get rid of the discussion of "who benefits the most from the weapon". And if everybody could get one if they chose to put the effort in, it would remove the major headaches that raid leaders get when posed the question "why didn't I get the legendary?"

Purely cosmetic legendary gear would be great, it would lift a weight off players....But it's a whole lot of work for blizzard to come up with class specific cosmetics or to make a handful or more so that it's a unique sort of thing, I mean, it's supposed to be something where people would recognize the legendary, Thunderfury is a good example back in classic, people would instantly recognize that and be in awe, but now imagine that everyone got that back in classic, it just wouldn't be as epic.

In my opinion, something cosmetic rather than overpowered would be interesting, it would be nice to see what shiny effect you might have or can get, it might be limited which is the concern I have and whether or not, that something limited to the point of everyone looking the same and not a personal prestigious thing would be good....But I'm interested in what direction of the end result could be.

[Ayrybyn]

I think that your idea is a great one Lore, but the biggest problem; that I've always seen; with Legendaries were the Primary Stats. They, imo, are the the reason why they are usually so OP. I've suggested this before, make the secondary stats the primary focus of the legendary and don't make the primary stats or the ilvl higher than the highest tier of the current content. If Blizz makes legendaries with unique and useful secondary stats and take alot of the focus away from the primary stats, I feel that this would go a long way to addressing alot of the issues with them. However, I believe that your solution would also go far to addressing the other issues that crop up with Legendaries and would, imo, make it more of an effort based reward rather than a class based one. It would also go far to addressing alot of the problems with balancing as far as the classes go in regards to legendaries.

[Bisso]

I always thought it would be, everyone works separatly on their own legendary at the same time.

For people to catch up, I see Blizzard unlocking the quests item drops from the previous tier LFR.

Basicly, 5.0 is live, people start the chain, collect stuff while progressing in tier 14.

5.1 comes out, people who finished it in time, continue with the new tier 15 raids. People who weren't playing in 5.0 or are missing a few items can either farm them with their guild, or go in the tier 14 LFR where now these items also drop, at lower rates than normal. So catching up in Tier 14 heroic would still be the fastest way, normal second, and finaly LFR once the next content is released and LFR now drops the items (once per week like item loots).

5.2 comes out, same idea, with Tier 15.

This way, everyone can catch up, but players only playing LFR CANNOT get to the same level of the raiders as they are always 1 tier late. Promotes the LFR AFTER a patch hits, as I am sure, without it, LFR of old content will be EMPTY.

So it's 2 birds.

[turboether]

The best way for it to work is basically that everyone has quest drops that are individually for them, all bosses in the xpac will drop your current quest item, and the legendaries are heroic ilvl items and the upgrade from sha-touched weapons changes the skin and adds an interesting and flavourful proc to make it more interesting than an average heroic weapon or removes the secondary stats in preference of a strong proc, ala Madness of Deathwing weapons, making it an alternative rather than necessarily an upgrade.

[Lirron]

I always thought it would be, everyone works separatly on their own legendary at the same time.

For people to catch up, I see Blizzard unlocking the quests item drops from the previous tier LFR.

Basicly, 5.0 is live, people start the chain, collect stuff while progressing in tier 14.

5.1 comes out, people who finished it in time, continue with the new tier 15 raids. People who weren't playing in 5.0 or are missing a few items can either farm them with their guild, or go in the tier 14 LFR where now these items also drop, at lower rates than normal. So catching up in Tier 14 heroic would still be the fastest way, normal second, and finaly LFR once the next content is released and LFR now drops the items (once per week like item loots).

5.2 comes out, same idea, with Tier 15.

This way, everyone can catch up, but players only playing LFR CANNOT get to the same level of the raiders as they are always 1 tier late. Promotes the LFR AFTER a patch hits, as I am sure, without it, LFR of old content will be EMPTY.

So it's 2 birds.

The idea was that the current relevant tier would be collecting items for the chain during a raid from the bosses, when the next relevant tier drops, the previous, outdated tier would now have dailies that you can personally farm to catch up if you missed out so that the raid team doesn't feel the need to be forced to run the old raids and the last raid content would be finishing it.

[Mwawka]

Couple of ideas. They could add legendary drops to previous tiers on RF to help people catch up. I'm not a big fan of being able to get your legendary by only running LFR, but if they used it as a tool for catching up in the chain, then it doesn't fall on the guild to get people caught up, but rather on the individual, even if it's rolling through old meaningless content. At some point as the xpac is winding down they could make LFR bosses start dropping the last pieces necessary to keep that group of players engaged and design it so they would be getting their legendary as the expansion is winding down.

I don't love the idea of a whole raid group getting their legendary on the same day which is what will happen if there is no RNG involved, so I think they could add a couple of random pieces that are rarer drops (maybe just in the last tier of raiding) and use the LFR loot system to distribute them to individual players. So everyone goes into tier 16 on the same footing, but at that point the bosses you kill will have a chance to give each player the pieces they need to actually finish the legendary, but it'll be an individual internal roll determining if you get them that week. They would have to find a reasonable drop rate so that people don't just get screwed outta the legendary by bad RNG, but it would help stagger when people actually got them. They could actually start the chance of getting the pieces you need at a fairly low percentage and increase it as the tier progresses so that more and more people get the legendary as the tier plays out.

One thing about this idea that would be great for Blizzard is that once people start on a quest chain for a legendary, they are far more likely to stick it out til they have that weapon. It would be a great way to maintain subscriptions through the whole xpac. If they pace things right so that this weapon can be obtained by pretty much everyone, but for the less dedicated players who play mostly LFR it would be a cookie at the very end of the xpac, they might be able to maintain subscription rates without the drop-offs as each tier winds down

[Valaras]

If only there was a way to actually implement that.

It could, by using a similar model to the Ulduar hardmores, whereby a single player or even the entire raid must pull off something different and very demanding in numbers to be able to complete the quest chain. I dunno, would this not be doable?

[Fetzie]

Couple of ideas. They could add legendary drops to previous tiers on RF to help people catch up. I'm not a big fan of being able to get your legendary by only running LFR, but if they used it as a tool for catching up in the chain, then it doesn't fall on the guild to get people caught up, but rather on the individual, even if it's rolling through old meaningless content. At some point as the xpac is winding down they could make LFR bosses start dropping the last pieces necessary to keep that group of players engaged and design it so they would be getting their legendary as the expansion is winding down.

I would rather not get any legendary item at all than get one from the LFR Pinata.

[Ion]

I fully support the single-frame-at-the-end idea...as I have for some time.

[Leucifer]

I fully support the single-frame-at-the-end idea...as I have for some time.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Hell, I'm inclined to say buh-bye to legendaries...... period.

As I know that that realistically is not going to happen.....

The best way for it to work is basically that everyone has quest drops that are individually for them, all bosses in the xpac will drop your current quest item, and the legendaries are heroic ilvl items and the upgrade from sha-touched weapons changes the skin and adds an interesting and flavourful proc to make it more interesting than an average heroic weapon or removes the secondary stats in preference of a strong proc, ala Madness of Deathwing weapons, making it an alternative rather than necessarily an upgrade.

I do like the upgrade method. I do like the idea that it's an option, something for an individual to seek. There's a ton of problems that stem out from this current idea of "legendary for everyone!!!!". One.... unless the proc/weapon is meaningful/useful.... what makes it "legendary" then? Two.... if it's real strong, and available to all.... it just became the BiS for damn near everyone.... let the chaos ensue.

Like Quel'delar. REALLY liked the quest for that (even though not a legendary). The drop rate for battered hilt, at least to me, it seemed like it really sucked. I only know of one person from ym guild who it actually DROPPED for. The quest line with it, the fact that it was tied-in with a history behind it.... LOVED. And it was unique/looked cool. Sadly.... it was also one-and-done and took a back seat to almost anything out of ICC. That was a shame. Here you have this really neat thing... and with the first weapon that drops with a gem slot... the item is set aside. It had the perfect workings to BE a legendary, and it had rewards for all classes even! It just simply was too weak.

Shadowmourne.... again... the process leading up to the raiding portion was done nicely. Collecting Arthas' hammer.... gathering primordial saronite either as drops or with badges... I liked. It gave the player options and didn't box them in solely by rng. The crap of "must run 25" was a bit of a slap in the face.

Tarecgosa's Staff... or whatever it was called, bridged the gap with 10's and 25's.... nice (balance issues on drop rates aside). It left the PvP crowd kind of hanging though.... and it had the transformation tied to it frankly left just about every class that couldn't use it going..... "Wow..... Nice.... Um, what about us?" Like WOW.... you made this REALLY awesome thing..... but it was such a jump up, that it left everyone else high and dry.

In each of these cases.... the common thread I find is that.... Blizzard doesn't seem to put enough thought into how the item is going to affect other people/classes/aspects of the game. THAT.... for a dev team with this much history and experience with this game.... is prett sad. It's an indictment of people like Greg Street, who have been around.... heard the fans... but seem to still just.... not... get it.

So sure.... bring in legendaries. But do it right.... or don't do it at all. That's my stance. If you can't balance it out and make it a little more even-handed, then just don't freakin do it. MY factors for this:

1) Available to both 10 and 25 man raiders
2) PvP rewards can be used towards it
3) The player is NOT hedged in to relying SOLELY on RNG for completion. (bear asses can be acquired through multiple challenging means)
3) Is ON PAR with heroic weapons.... not greater.
4) Has a good storyline/lore piece that ties it in to the HISTORY of WoW... and not just some contrived bullsh*t pulled out of someone's butt.
5) Available to all classes.... or if not... any procs or effects remain limited and of a functional nature (combat proc like shadowmourne)

But again.... if you CAN'T do it right.... then stop.

[Lirron]

Legendary items are such a burden upon themselves, that it's hard to give a supported idea that justifies the brand name and status of being a "Legendary" while accounting for so many players, let alone being class specific, I'm only interested to see the result as to what it will do to balance as well as how it will play out.

I'm also concerned for what it would mean for hardcore pvp players, I mean, if you have to raid to contribute, it would twice as much work, for raiders and pve players general, it's no problem for them, they're accounted for, but if there's nothing for pvpers, not even like, a reward by any means, it become tedious for them at this point, I mean sure, it starts in 5.0 so at that point, we can just say "sure, it's a new start, they can grind 2 sets of gear" but it would still mean they have to work extra hard to stay on top of everything, it becomes this huge ugly mess, so I'm concerned as to how that will work.

[Aizenn]

OK I'll just state something that came to me while watching the episode and all those hardcore over non hardcore player stuff... as we all now the black breath will be like an enchant that makes the weapon legendary more like the new valor system upgrades them so lets say works this way and improves your current item.. now think about cataclysm for exemple I'm a dps using a normal dw drop No'kael for exemple and use the breath on it and it gets +100 stats to become a legendary weapon the same way another player use te breath on the heroic No'kael and it also gets +100 stats that means the Heroic version created will have better stats than the normal one since it source was better... also we could first apply the valor upgrade them use the legendary turn and get an even improved item this way hardcore ppl would have a better legendary than normal ppl and still all would be getting legendarys...

Don't know if I made myself clear and sorry for any mistake on the text...

[Dagz]

Interesting ideas, I do hope the legendary is a thing that is completed over the expansion and can be completed by everyone. Just a few points that strike me:

In a blue post somewhere it was stated that they don't want the expectation to be that everyone gets a legendary, and I think the idea was if you get 10 of these low drop rate items etc then you can complete it, but not everyone will. I can see this being fustrating for progress guilds as if they are unlucky and those around them luck out it could create an imbalance unless the legendary doesn't offer a significant performance increase. Hopefully they have move away from this idea.

In terms of people who miss parts of the expansion the idea that the quests update so as current teir raiding provides the drops is an excellent one. Although given each teir gets nerfed down I could see this generating pugs if the item drops to all, and maybe even if its rolled for although then it tends to end up reserved and that would kill a pug.

Would people think that it was acceptable if legendary quest drops appeared in lfr for the previous teir? so in patch 5.1 the 5.0 lfr started dropping legendary items. I personally am not sure how I would feel about it, but is any different from doing dailies or running content you overgear? I think I would prefer it moved to current teir raids.

In terms of one handers - could the system not be worked so you can apply it to a two hander or two one handers? Obviously it would have to be applied at the same time.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the artwork, presumably when an item is upgrade it would get new art, otherwise legendaries could be very lacklustre.

In addition with the systems ability to alter quest rewards etc based on class, I could see the legendary bonus proc being something that works for each class. It would be a lot of work but would make for a good balancing mechanism.

Could people see this working off an individual roll, so your raid team kills a boss, then all raiders have a chance of the quest items but it is only for them like the new lfr loot system. I say this as otherwise isn't there the risk that the whole raid getting a legendary in one hit would create a very marked progress boost? meaning the week after suddenly everything becomes easier.

[Dagz]

Aizeen, interesting idea on the heroic/valour points. Hmm I think it would have to work off being heroic gear as oppossed to i level. It also raises the point could you use valour to pimp your legendary? Then you could end up with 2-4 levels of legendary.

[Fetzie]

Aizeen, interesting idea on the heroic/valour points. Hmm I think it would have to work off being heroic gear as oppossed to i level. It also raises the point could you use valour to pimp your legendary? Then you could end up with 2-4 levels of legendary.

Apparently you can only upgrade an item a couple of times, and it is only a 7 item level boost each time. You would need to upgrade an item 8-10 times to turn it from a T14 item into a T16 heroic item.

[Dagz]

Fetzie I was more thinking if you didn't get the legendary til t16 then applied it to a teir 16 item, could you then upgrade the resulting legendary.

Also if you had Lore's suggestion of normal and heroic level legendaries that could be upgraded you could end up with 4 levels of item potentially.

[Lirron]

In terms of people who miss parts of the expansion the idea that the quests update so as current teir raiding provides the drops is an excellent one. Although given each teir gets nerfed down I could see this generating pugs if the item drops to all, and maybe even if its rolled for although then it tends to end up reserved and that would kill a pug.

Would people think that it was acceptable if legendary quest drops appeared in lfr for the previous teir? so in patch 5.1 the 5.0 lfr started dropping legendary items. I personally am not sure how I would feel about it, but is any different from doing dailies or running content you overgear? I think I would prefer it moved to current teir raids.

In addition with the systems ability to alter quest rewards etc based on class, I could see the legendary bonus proc being something that works for each class. It would be a lot of work but would make for a good balancing mechanism.

I somehow doubt that they'll place the quest drops in LFR after, say 5.1 drops because then you're going to get players flaming "Oh you did this, why can't you do it to the current tier" and even then, it would feel more of a pug, the problem I see with pugging would be exactly the same sort of situation that we have for guilds that players don't really want to be forced to do old content.

The bonus proc idea would kinda not work, say you a shaman, you're elemental and resto, like, you're main specced resto right and you get this breathe, I'm assuming you only get a unique of 1, the problem we have is, which spec do I choose? Because remember, we're only talking about upgrading stats, not necessarily add something extra, so if an item for a rogue had something like 825 stam and say, 760 agility stat wise, using the breath could potentially say it would now be something like 900 stam and 835 agility, I imagine it would work along the lines of the reforging but instead boosts the existing stats rather than exchanging them.

[L.Dawn]

I think that Legendaries should only be available over the Course of an Expansion and then removed with the release of a New one.
That way, they'll have more Prestige to them.

[eschatological]

I am totally against forcing raiders to do dailies to catch up on legendaries. How is having to sign on every day to catch up better than having drops off all bosses in previous tiers (including LFR, something I didn't think of)? Raids aren't forced to run you through old content if you can LFR every tier, and pug a normal previous tier, which should be doable. I understand the old tiers become irrelevant and people generally don't pug them, but this might be a reason to do so, if you (IE, generally, everyone) can get drops towards building their legendaries in old tiers, you don't think people will pug them?