Just wanted to say thanks a lot Lore for telling me how much pressure I'm gonna be under when I get the first legendary!
Just wanted to say thanks a lot Lore for telling me how much pressure I'm gonna be under when I get the first legendary!
Last edited by Mortauk; 06-21-2012 at 07:07 PM. Reason: spelling
Hi guys, when I watched this WM on the Youtubes earlier, I signed up just to run a few ideas past Lore. I'll c&p here. It's long and rambling, especially for a first post, but bear with it. TL;DR version: move to a blended legendary model which mixes collectibles-built component, and an RNG drop. Sorry if this has been discussed in previous threads; I tried to see if there'd been a previous thread about one, but I didn't see one on any front pages of any subforums.
Hey Lore, just caught your weekly Marmot today and had to sign up just to shoot a few ideas past you - you said you guys might discuss this topic on Legendary tonight, so I thought it might be useful. It mainly covers two aspects - the idea of collectibles to build (in which I have a few design ideas but generally agree with you), and the idea of "how you award legendaries" to people in the raid.
1.) I agree with the idea that the collectibles should be easier throughout the tiers. Why not make two levels of collectibles, but solely in raids (daily quests are annoying to me as a raider, imo)? One level that requires a high number of a generic collectible (which drops for everyone like a DMF drop), but drops off every boss in the xpac. That way, people starting later can catch up by doing the current raid, and maybe pugging the old raid (and in dedicated guilds, run old instances for new members). Then, a second tier of collectibles that drop off specific bosses which allow the sense of progression through the tiers for the person who's content to just farm in the current tier, forcing him to have to kill previous bosses just once. If you have a slew of new recruits, wait for them all to get all the generic pieces, then run the old tiers so they all get their boss-specific drops at once.
As an example using this current xpac, say you needed 500 shards of awesome, 1 soul of the Blackwing, 1 soul of the Council, 1 soul of the Winds, 1 soul of the Firelands, 1 soul of Deathwing. T11 drops 1 shard per boss (2 on heroic), T12 drops 2 per boss (3 heroic), T13 drops 3 per boss (4 per heroics). The boss drops come from Nefarian, Cho'gall, Al'akir, Ragnaros, Deathwing, in any difficulty. That way, if I started raiding in T13, I could potentially get 32 shards per week if I only did T13 heroic full clear, but if I cleared each raid heroic every week, I could get (13x2 + 7x3 + 32 =) 79 shards a week, and be caught up to the rest of the raid in 2 months of serious work (obviously the numbers can be futzed with). Then, once you get your 500, and say you only did it in t13, you do the old raids once, get your boss drop, and bam, legendary breath of whatever. I think this would also prevent consistent raiders from feeling like they have to go back in to old raids, or are somehow otherwise penalized, because they'll probably finish the collectibles portion long before t13 or even t12 if the numbers are balanced correctly.
2) I don't think everyone should get a legendary. This is why I think the two-tiered system of "building something" via a collectible, and applying it to a drop, has such a good potential for it. EVERYONE will have the ability to build the breath - but who gets the legendary can still be up to RNG. I know back in the day people didn't really like it when the random scrubs got random legendaries just drop for them the first time they step into the instance, but this is counteracted by needing the collectible-built breath. Say these Sha-touched weapons aren't like, the entirety of the loot table of the end boss of T14, like Madness's loot table was. Say there's a rather small chance of it dropping. Maybe it's 5% on H-Sha of Anger, 3% off normal Sha, 2% off ANY heroic boss, and a 0.5% chance off any normal boss - change the numbers however you want, but I'm an 8/8H hunter and definitely believe heroic raiders should have a higher chance at these drops. You can then extend these drop chances in later tiers. You can make the weapon solely decorative until the breath is applied, even (IE, the breath purifies the weapon), which keeps the integrity of BiS in place for other weapons which drop.
If you do this, even if random player A gets the drop off the Halfus equivalent in a pug of T14 during T16 content in a stroke of brilliant luck, he just doesn't automatically get a legendary, he has to build the breath. And Raid X doesn't have the drama of figuring out who gets the first legendary past the normal drama of "who gets the first (and perhaps only) randomly dropped caster staff" because everyone who raids in an organized manner will easily be able to build the breath and whether they get the legendary is a matter of RNG. Maybe I like this idea because I'm a hunter in a 10 man and if the gun drops it'll automatically be mine, and it doesn't work as well in a 25 where you have 6 healers vying for the same healer mace, but I dunno.
Potential downside to this system: You have a lot of raiders feeling like they wasted time on collectibles, but never got the Sha-touched weapon drop. This can be alleviated by making higher drop rates in later tiers or heroic tiers, and maybe H-Garrosh will have a 25% chance to drop a Sha-touched weapon.
Anyways, I know that was longwinded, but hope it made you think a bit. Feel free to use any of it.
I think it would be interesting if to catch up with the current legendary raiding tier they gave access to the previous tiers quest items in the raid finder just increasing the the number of drops needed or something along those lines to still make the quests fill epic and not short change the heroic raiders or force guilds to run old content for one person. The only issue I would have with this is that it would make it easier for alts to get close to getting a legendary taking away from the legendary fill.
Guild achieve to get every type of MoP legendary? Yes please.
If this isn't what Blizz is already planning to do with things I hope they watch and see how fair this would be for everyone involved.
Hi lore, i really like the 'work for the entire expansion for X'. A LOT of effort that gets payed off at the end, may be something that people try to work for even when content is 'irrelevent' because they want to get it. (May help keep old raids alive for a bit longer)
Personally, when I first saw all the icons for the possible legendaries, the first thing that popped in my mind was, "How will they balance that?"
Then it hit me.
What if all the legendaries have the same item budget as their epic counterparts(same ilevel of course), but had a unique unstackable buff that helped EVERYONE in the raid? (So the breath of the black prince would give an item the unique buff, but nothing more)
Something like 2% increased damage/ 2% increased heal for the entire raid and such.Then, it wouldn't matter who really got it, and it really helps reward the guild/raid group for getting a person through the legendary questline. (Would also help if the questline involved the raid as a whole a lot more, something like the Dragonwrath questline. The fangs of the father questline was really only rogue focused)
It might be a boring for the person actually getting the legendary, but I think it kills a lot of the drama revolving around the legendary.
Yes, the person with the legendary needs to stick around the guild so that the raid gets the benefit, but that is going to be an issue with legendaries or any other powerful items anyway.
Legendary stacking will be a non-issue, since the buff is unstackable. No more drama over which guilds have more legendaries over the other, since most top guilds will have at least one, so they're on almost equal footing (Dont need to 'steal' other legendary players)
PvP arena 'balance' will be a bit better even when legendaries are involved (At least less then it does so now)
For BGs\ RBGs, it may be a bit bigger but its not too much of a difference (If the buff isnt too op, I think 2% damage/healing is fine because it will be like having an extra player buff.)
What do you think?
Do you think it takes away too much from the single player getting the legendary?
EDIT: I think this could go well w/ the 'everyone' gets a legendary at the end of the expac too, maybe a bit 'underwhelming for an expansion long effort though.
Last edited by BLSTMASTER; 06-21-2012 at 11:05 PM.
i'm under the impression that those quest items will be personal drops like a charm of good fortune.. so not everybody will get it, it's going to be random on personal basis.
They did that loot system for LFR and for charms of good fortune to have a personal roll, so it would be ideal to use it again.
I'm not really worried for people getting behind.. I mean, that is a reward for continuing playing the game, just make sure the quest items drop every tier and people will just be behind but will be able to farm it in current content.
The issue really isn't with people getting behind, but more so with not making whole guilds have to run old content just for one person who may have had to take a leave of absence from the game for maybe a tier. The idea behind making it available to LFR after the next tiers released is to prolong the life of these raids as well.
Your math was fine Lore. My hatred of legendaries increased if anything once I got my staff. It was just the last page in a whole book of frustration and disappointment, like you've said before - the only people who don't dislike legendaries, are those who don't have to deal with them.
I also think I'd actually like the "build a legendary over an expansion" solution, I really wish it wouldn't be overpowered as all hell, something that rewarded the player with a status symbol that said that you'd put in the effort without a 15% dps increase, but I doubt it would happen.
Why blizzard thinks people need a mandatory performance increase is beyond me, legendaries (used) to only go to HC raiders - I've yet to find any that are cool with overpowered as hell classes.
Last edited by Nagassh; 06-22-2012 at 02:10 AM.
Hey Lore, I've been a long-time lurker, and had this idea, so I thought I would post.
What if the all parts of the legendary chain come from the Charm of Good Fortune? The quest chain would begin with an item that dropped from using the charm (perhaps even the weapon / shield that would eventually be upgraded). Then all subsequent shards and such would drop from using the charm, in the 1-3 shards per week range. These shards would be in addition to the normal loot dropped from using the charm.
In subsequent tiers, the legendary quest items could then drop from the *current* tier of content. So if someone just starts raiding in tier 15, the drop-rate of the quest-items could be increased (still while using the charm) until the raider is caught up to the current tier.
Another way would be to have the shards drop off the bosses as usual, but, for someone to catch up, they could use the charms to get the previous tier's legendary quest drops/shards.
Anyway, great show, as usual!
Last edited by nescio; 06-22-2012 at 03:02 AM. Reason: edited for wall of text
Meh, legendaries should be obtained by skill and not by time spent farming and that's basically it. It should NOT be a reward based on just effort, but on doing stuff that other players or even entire raiding teams are not capable of. We already are at the point that the legendary quest chains and especially the in-raid tasks require no skill whatsoever basically letting everyone who is part of a raiding guild (even normal modes, and why normal mode raiders should have access to the best weapon in game is beyond me) get one. Which then starts causing the balance issues.
Now I actually prefer the 'choose whoever you are gonna give the legendary to' method, because in my guild people just care about progression and more often than not trust the decisions of the GM and officer council. And even if they are not satisfied by the decision, there is minimal whining. I mean, if you have a lot of whining about who gets the legendary in your guild, then something is quite wrong with your community...
What if they just allowed T14 drops to drop in later tiers and so on, but with a weekly cap on them so you don't feel inclined to go back and farm old content.
What if legendaries were simply a cosmetic reward for beating the content?
Their power would be almost exactly the same as the alternative item. What made them unique would be some nice effect.
Compare Dragonwrath with Lightning Rod (normal). Let's assume for simplicity's sake that both are obtainable in the same tier, as the 397 staff in Firelands has crit and mastery instead of haste and hit which makes comparing them harder.
What if Dragonwrath lost the spell duplication? The Legendary would be a purely cosmetic upgrade with an awesome flight form use.
What if the hidden /use on Fandral's flamestaff for cat druids was a cosmetic addition to make a weapon "legendary"?
Then it wouldn't matter if everybody got it. It would have no implications for future tier tuning because a full legendary raid would have the same potential damage output as a non-legendary raid. It would stop setups with 8 of a single class wielding the legendary for a boss. It would get rid of the discussion of "who benefits the most from the weapon". And if everybody could get one if they chose to put the effort in, it would remove the major headaches that raid leaders get when posed the question "why didn't I get the legendary?"
Hey man, been watching your videos for a while now an i realy agree with what youve been saying, the black market auctions is a realy weird addition to wow, i kind of hope it doesnt make it out of the beta stages as it realy doesnt make sense to be rewarding those who have alot of gold, with high end raid gear.
Anyways, my question, Do you think it would be a good idea to merge servers in wow?
Let me explain as that my seem a bit rash, but alot of the servers are low populated. There are very few guilds on my server and none have any real progression with pvp and pve, purely because we just dont have the nombers to support the guild. For example my old guild on Shadowsong, Excito, we had 5/8 progression on heroic, this was the highest on horde at the time. We were casual raiders, and a tight little bunch, but ofcourse people leave get bored ect especialy with the wait for MoP and Diablo just coming out. We had nobody to fill the places, not even pugging would provide enough scrubs:L
Its not just the guild aspect either, the auction houses are very basic with only a few epics to be bought, and generally the gems and enchants are sold by the same person, who must be making a killing out of it.. the lack of social aspect towards the game has realy dimmed my experience, even my friends have began to quit as they dont want to have to fork out extra money towards the game just to play on a resonably populated server, which is in the end the only alternative. If we were to do it then the whole load of us would have to do it, which would be a substantial amount of money going to blizzard.. again.
Alot of other games have been forced to do this, such as Lotro, which crashed and burned recently, and warhammer online, also taking a burning decent and closing down. I think this happened purely because they where, 'bad' games, and that the servers should have been merged sooner to keep their core of players still tentative. This is not what i expect to happen to wow. It will never get that bad as it is a, 'good' game. Yet i still think the server merging is a good idea just to ensure those who are on the verge of quiting wow because of this factor, the lack of a community.
Trade channel is dead. Which isnt always a bad thing, but its an aspect of the game crucial to puging, trading, occasional banter and is iconic of wow to have such a community feeling, that you often loose in other games, in my opinion atleast.
On a last lil note, im not a wow fanboy its just i realy want this game to be awsome again as iv had alot of fun playing it, i do play other games such as diablo and league, i also have my own youtube channel, http://www.youtube.com/user/Joebmx945/featured
Sorry for making this a long ass read but iv tried to make it as detailed and explanential as possible. Cheers.
** This is a side note for Lore. I am trying to understand the word that you have been trying to say for 2 weeks "esoolage" ?? Are you trying to say the verb " Soulager" relieve in French ? If so try this " sue ( like the first name ) la ( like the music note ) jay, "suelajay"
Now back to your regular programming...
Assuage is pronounced "a-swayj"
No emphasis on the first "a" vowel sound, "ay" for the second vowel sound.
Last edited by Fetzie; 06-22-2012 at 07:56 AM.
The word he's trying to use is "assuage" and he doesn't even come close to pronouncing it correctly. Lore... do us all a favor, type "Assuage" into google, and press the pronounce button. You're doing it wrong.
I'll even make it simple for you.
I think you forgot one major issue when it comes to the fact that it might remove drama. aka people getting benched.
To give my personal (warlock) example, when my guild was working on heroic ragnaros burst in P3 and burst aoe was super important ( this was pre the big nerf and the race was still on on my server) so for that reason it was much better to take the SP/boomkin/mage combo for our 10 man ( in many cases one of the healer priests went shadow even) while progressing. But I was basically #11 in case someone couldn't make it.
Thing is in many cases this resulted in for the last month and a half the same team rushing through the first 6 and then working on raggy. And then me and quite a few other people being there on 'standby' for 4 days a week for a long while.
I can tell you that was not a fun period. If you add to that the fact that being benched means getting pushed back on getting a legendary? That would make it *really* annoying
Or another example would be trials for your guild, going to push a regular member a week back on his legendary because the trial needs to get a chance too ? Becomes pretty icky.
It would require a lot of balancing so that you only need to do a certain % of the available bosskills in a the period of a tier to get 100% completion or something.
Last edited by Thustra; 06-22-2012 at 08:31 AM.
Yeah, Get rid of Legendaries for the following reason:
PvP will hate it and it's a factor in this game. Period.
The reason will be that PvP players will feel slighted to not get a good weapon like this. Unless you make some sort of chain that allows PvPers to make their own weapon, and then it becomes the question that legendaries become all over the place and lose the idea of Legendary status.
I just don't see any feasible way to get this in without pissing someone off. Not in a game as huge as this.
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