+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 41 to 44 of 44

Thread: PST - Episode 83

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    696
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post

    In the vast majority of cases with modern UI elements, they are not crutches. They are crucial elements in establishing a depth of gameplay for raiders. The exception would be scripts that made decisions for players, such as telling them which add to kill. Butmost of the time, UI mods are just giving players information in a better way and letting them communicate better. That does nothing but add to the experience. It is sort of a cycle, but in a good way. I'd much rather have an excellent UI and communication tools and be expected to tackle a complex problem as opposed to having bad tools and be given a simple task. I'd rather the challenge be in the fight rather than working against my UI. And that's why I said that for a raid-focused MMO, I believe a solid UI with advanced features is necessary.


    Establish depth of gameplay? I could actually argue the converse. Take for example, threat management. When you can see exactly how much threat you are about to pull, quantified, you are being handed easy and concrete information regarding performance. You have little else to do beyond keep below a certain figure. You really have ZERO excuse to ever go beyond that point, other than perhaps your absolute failure to heed the information.

    This is lack of depth compared to a situation where.... you simply have an estimate of threat. Say, green being non-threatening.... yellow being mildly... and red being significant or having pulled threat. For player to sit in the yellow range, and not press beyond into the red, without quantifiable information, you'd have to have a good understanding for what your various abilities do, and an understanding of how much you can press that edge. The depth in this case is how a person manages something that is unknown and unquantifiable. Even more in how they deal with a situation IF they pull threat. Do they panic and run around like a fool, or do they react in a manner that assists the tank and prevents their death?

    For the player in scenario one..... their gameplay is.... "keep threat below specific value X"

    For the player in the second secanrio.... their gameplay is.... "manage abilities and threat keeping it below red, be prepared to take action A, B, or C if I go into red".

    I would contend that there is actually more depth of gameplay in the second scenario becasue you have to be ready to react to an event that MAY happen, whereas in the first..... unless you're illiterate, you really have no excuse. You know exactly what the trigger point is. The player in scenario two will have to develop an understanding of their avatar beyond "keep below value X' and learn what they can and can't do. They may learn that.... hey, I can't simply go full throttle. I have to ramp up a bit or I will screw up. And, if I do screw up, I need to be able to do other things. Yes.... in the first case the player MIGHT need to do those things.... but they really have little reason for it due to having exact information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post

    I would be fine with a MMO not supporting mods as long as they put a serious effort into having a good UI and updating it with innovations periodically. The basic raid frame UI in WoW is leaps and bounds beyond what it was initially, and far outclasses what you see other new MMO's coming out with.
    Agree with this. UI should always present useful information to the player. If there is something significantly lacking, it should be addressed. And yes, the basic UI for WoW is a far leap beyond what it used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post

    A couple of examples:

    1. DPS meters. If you don't have a DPS meter, then it's very hard for a player to judge their own performance and test various specs/abilities/gear. It's also hard for leaders to judge how their raid team is doing, identify problems, etc. How are you going to work to squeeze out that 5% more DPS, when you have no way of telling exactly how much damage you are doing? You aren't. You'll just do what seems good, and that's that. Lack of a DPS meter doesn't add anything to the game, it just takes away. It makes the developers less able to put in things like DPS checks to fights. If you have a team wiping because someone isn't carrying their weight, and the team doesn't have any reasonable way to see what's going on, that's just terrible design that is going to frustrate players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post
    2. For a more concrete example, look at the searing plasma debuff on the first deathwing fight which absorbs a certain amount of healing. The idea is to heal people that get the debuff to clear it, ideally in the most mana efficient manner possible. DBM has a feature which shows which players have the debuff and how much additonal healing is going to be absorbed. So the UI is providing me with detailed information, which allows me to make better decisions about how to deal with the situation. That's adding depth.


    The situation you describe with DPS meters..... you conflate the argument. "Lack of a DPS meter doesn't add anything to the game, it just takes away. It makes the developers less able to put in things like DPS checks to fights". Right..... cause DPS check fights are exciting. Instead of player having to react to various things, you need to 1) have gear improvements and 2) be able to mash certain buttons in a certain order or in response to a little buff/debuff icon. Yes. Such depth. You fail to mention that the dps meter doesn't take into account any other factors..... say, player A has to maneuver several times throughout the fight due to an AoE or other effect, and their DPS suffers because they are having to stop attacking.... whereas player B can sit parked someplace safe and wail away on the opponent. This is a typical situation for ranged/melee characters and has been..... but.... if we go strictly off DPS meters (which people do) we are losing the full experience. Or... in other cases.... Player A's DPS meter shows they had stunning DPS.... for the 60 seconds they survived.... but player B's DPS meter showed they had less, but they survived the full 5 minutes of the fight.

    I'll agree in the sense that it CAN be a nice tool. At the same time, too much dependency on it takes away from the full experience.

    With #2.... The plasma debuff and DBM. How does this add to the experience? If anything, it's reducing the challenge.... i.e. not knowing how much work you're going to have to put in on healing someone.... and negating it. If anything, it's a "nerf" to the intended design/purpose of the debuff, if not the fight. The intent was to design something that would challenge the healers. To have a player that they will try to heal and not know when they will have success. Instead, it's a situation of seeing and knowing exactly what's coming next.

    Also consider.... how might he game design be different if players did NOT have these tools? Right now, Dev's KNOW you have these tools, so they're having to fine tune fights to very tight parameters, lest a fight be deemed "unchallenging" or "too hard". Again, a fine example.... Ragnaros at Firelands release. It was a fight tuned so tightly to a difficulty level that just could NOT be accomplished without all of these tools and even then, it wasn't going to be done unless it was executed in near-robotic fashion.

    I mean, honestly..... and this is a true bastardization of what you describe as being necessary to an MMO.... you're essentially saying it needs to be a planned experience. It's like going on a date, knowing that.... at 8pm, you will leave dinner.... at 8:30pm, you'll make out in the car.... and then, assuming you have rubbed your date's butt the right way enough times.... you'll make your "check" and get some nookie at 9pm. Wtf happened to the excitement of not knowing what's going to happen next? What happened to the experience of having something unplanned happen?

    Really, that is the route this has gone. Raid groups no longer go into a boss fight and sort out the challenge for themselves. They no longer go against a boss and say, "Oh hey.... did you guys notice that debuff.... looks like a skull? Yeah. I had that too. It did a ridiculous amount of damage. Healers.... can we clear that off?" Now we watch videos and strategy guides. We get our intel on our enemy beforehand without having to pay the price of gaining it ourselves. The "problem-solving" aspect of boss fights is pretty much gone. Instead, it's a matter of getting people together and rehearsing algorithms. It's no wonder why people burn through this stuff and are then bored f**king senseless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post

    At some point, the benefit of having older content still relevant becomes practically non-existent. In fact, there were huge problems with multi-tier raiding in vanilla/BC. What you ended up with was a vicious cycle where guilds stuck in a lower tier would gear up new players trying to progress. Then once those new people got the gear they needed, they were able to jump ship and join a guild successfully raiding the next tier. It unwillingly turned many guilds into farm leagues for "better" guilds, and that's the reason that Blizzard practically makes all but the most current raid tier obsolete.
    As if this doesn't happen still. People jump guilds all the time. They get the stuff they need from one group..... and then jump to another guild that may want a skilled player in order to gain more prestige or to raid on the level they think they deserve. That has so very little to do with why previous tier gear is made obsolete. My old guild WAS a "farm league". We took the raw player... built them up, taught them.... and then watched them run off to "hardcore" guilds. So,

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post

    Your plan may sound good in theory, but it falls apart in reality. It's better just to focus on the new stuff. That's what people get excited about anyway. And you can still have older content updated from time to time, offering a nostalgic experience.
    And your plan may sound good in theory, but falls apart in reality also (see what I did there?.... unsupported conclusion also).

    You're only correct so far as WoW is concerned. Only the newest and latest matters and that's largely due to gear. If previous tier gear was still suitable and in demand for current tier, people would still regularly run previous tiers, as was done in TBC. People still ran Kara because honestly, a lot of that gear was still viable for the next tier up. parts of what have broken that system is justice/valor gear. A large part of what brought that problem on though was the RATE of improvement in gear. You simply could NOT step up into the current tier of raiding anymore. In TBC..... BLUES from dungeons in some cases were still desirable, because the stats on the stuff were RELEVANT. Now..... t12 gear is at a SIGNIFICANT DISADVANTAGE comapred to t13.

    Huge part of the problem was that "raiders" needed that ego stroke to feel better than their counterparts. Killing a boss wasn't enough. Having something shiny to show for it mattered also. That something shiny needed to be considered better than what the other guy carried, otherwise, "why do it"? What resulted was essentially a "WoW-Cold-War". WoW has been in an 'arms race" and it's getting to the point where devs have looked at it and gone, "Sh*t. How are we going to manage this?"

    Oh, the other part of the problem is that PvE and PvP become increasingly difficult to balance. That gear that works nicely for going 6-10 minutes against that 100mil health boss doesn't necessarily scale well against another player with 160k health. We might have to make resilience reduce damage values by 40-50% in order to make it function.

    OK........
    All that said. Zoltar.... I'd love to see a 'raiding' MMO. I think WoW would be actually a GREAT platform for that. Regular raid content released, say, on a quarterly basis. I also think that to accomplish that, Blizzard would have to separate PvP and PvE and prevent crossover between the two. The two do not play well together and keep getting worse. Blizzard would also have to pony up, accept what they have become, and start managing WoW very differently in the PvE aspect, quit playing lip service to "leveling" and simply engage in the meta-leveling of gear in a rational way. To clarify...... get back to a real "raid progression". "Leveling" in WoW is dead. The only real leveling going on anymore is in gear acquisition.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    696
    TL;DR version of the previous.......

    A lot of people are of the mindset that WoW's model is the only one that will work. They are convinced that MMO's must have dps meters and threat meters or that you have to have tanks/dps/healers.... and so forth. These are not inherently "evil"..... however, just as "if a person only has a hammer, they approach every problem as a nail," so too do people approach MMO design with a similar mindset. It has created a "belief system" that some people cling to religiously (see belief system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system or http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Belief_system).

    The system WoW implements has strengths and weaknesses. There are other ways to design mmo's. They just may not appeal to certain members of the WoW raiding community.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    ... and it would be catastrophic for Blizzard to course correct in such a dramatic fashion. If you want a dramatically different MMO then you need a new one. This is a mistake I see non engineers (or really junior engineers) make all the time ... believing that huge sweeping changes in course are good for a largely functional product. It simply never is ... the only effective and sane way to make changes is evolution, not revolution. Every time a product or system has been revolutionized it has largely failed, if not completely then at a minimum financially. Wow may evolve into a game similar to what people hope to see but it will take many iterations of small, but important changes to get there.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    696
    Completely agree Feral. WoW is kinda "stuck being WoW".

    Even for a brand-new MMO, they will be subject to a lot of the beliefs held by people who have played WoW. They have room to maneuver, and could certainly through the conventions established by WoW into the wind. There are risks with that. Some people like Zoltar might be completely alienated by the game due to that. Some people like me, might actually find this change "revolutionary".

    You make some excellent points.



    No one tanks in a void.........

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts