at 40:12 lore turns green!
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/greenlore.png/
so there ya go lore you know have a picture of how you would look completely green
and btw your photo uploading system is broken
The same could be said if there was a PvP only game, no art to make any kinds of mobs, just having the different classes fighting each other non-stop.Originally Posted by eald
Personally, a raid-dedicated mmo is the only thing that could take me from WoW, so I would also love to see a company do good on that, Lore.
Porpoises aren't Dolphins, and you are not a ninja yet.
Probably. I think there would be two viable approaches.
1. A traditional MMO where raiding is the focus, but there are other things to do.
2. A non-mmo lobby game with MMO gameplay. Sort of Diablo meets WoW.
Yes, the same could be said about the arguments I did; my original post wast three times longer than that but I edited.
If you let me elaborate a pvp game could be done, it is done right now is called GW2, and even they have the complement for their pvp game; the main difference to me is that you can play pvp non-stop without "new" content, the content is the way that people learn to play the game and try to beat others, you only need to mess around with balance and you have people working to beat the new FoTM; there are other means to provide new content that you could add like more classes, maps, but PVP only games have a different business model IMO. In a raid game you need to provide new fights that basically are the whole art assets except for the original characters, and new mechanics of course. What I see from wow, swtor, rift schedules, is that developers take a lot of time doing Raid content, more than anything else (after initial release).
I would love to see a game that doesn't balance around pvp their pve aspects, a game where the new content is raids or other kind of hard pve content (challenge modes?, initial cata heroic dungeons?). I just think it is more expensive than other game models, and the better way to make that content cheaper is to have a theme-park where there is a ton of thing to do and people to pay for that stuff, but they are cheap to maintain so you could spend your resources building raid content. Just a opinion.
1. I think that Rift tried that, but "something" wasn't WoW level, they had some bugs and so, but in general they tried that; nowdays they added two new professions in previous patch, have more non-raid content, a lot more more non-raid content for max-level characters than wow, new patch is adding WvW, so they are moving away from that idea of being a focused game. We could argue that was execution rather than their game model though.
2. I had a 'WoW meets D3' idea in mind but I felt dirty when my description was a blatant D3 clone with harder mechanics in bosses and for more people than four, maybe trinity for flavor (j/k I like trinity).
Eh, I never got that impression of Rift. Seemed like raiding was a focus, but not the focus. Like maybe at the level of WoW, but I'm not even sure if that.
Content does not need to be too much of an issue, specially not artwork the vast majority of artwork in wow is reskins, Every Mob in HoO(the prettiest cata lauch dungeon) was a reskin, I think the only got four new models at cata lauch where the elementals, the etins the pygmies and the mind benders. And we've seen with fights like Halfus its entirely possible to have modular boss design.
The hard work is coming up with new boss encounters and mechanics, not how they look.
I think it's patently false to say that AH farmers will buy anything off the BMAH. I am a semi-casual AH farmer (I have about 600k gold) and I would never in a million years spend anything more than maybe $10k on something from the BMAH ... and even then it would have to be something my principle raiding toon "Needs" to compete. You simply do not actually acquire a lot of gold if you don't have the type of psychology that prevents you from wasting it on any old transient item that comes along (and heroic raiding gear is absolutely transient). Now if I could buy extinct titles or mounts I *might* consider spending some real money on it but buying heroic raiding gear is something that no successful Auctioneer would ever even consider.
As to buying/selling gold, sure this might be where you see the negative bump ... but please quit implying that AH-farmers are ever going to waste money on heroic raiding gear. They won't, it takes too much effort to make the gold in the first place to ever waste it on that kind of garbage. AH "farming" is a ton of work ... a ton more than people think ... and you certainly do not do it so that you can have all those hours of effort wiped out to acquire some shiny purple gear that will be DE-fodder in 4 months.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
If anything, AH farmers or other people with a lot of gold get much better value for their gold by simply paying guilds to let them AFK through the content and get the achievements, titles, full sets of gear and maybe even a mount. I don't see Gevlon types saying, "Oooo, one random piece of (probably) non-set, non-BiS gear for 95k bid? Sign me up!"I think it's patently false to say that AH farmers will buy anything off the BMAH. I am a semi-casual AH farmer (I have about 600k gold) and I would never in a million years spend anything more than maybe $10k on something from the BMAH ... and even then it would have to be something my principle raiding toon "Needs" to compete.
^
You can buy a boost though DS heroic and get every item that drops, including the mount for 200-300k. Why spend 100k in the BMAH on a single item? Makes no economic sense whatsoever.
Because the idea would be that you would be buying such gear from a theoretical BMAH back in early December of last year. I don't think it was actually purchasable from guilds for that kind of gold then. It is now, but of course the gear is significantly less valuable now than it was when the instance was first released.
Legitimate auction players and people 'just running dailies' as Lore keeps saying aren't going to be buying this gear. The former won't spend that much gold because they know how difficult it is to obtain (which apparently a lot of other people who only raid do not have any clue about) and the latter won't because they will be priced out of the market by far. The people who buy the stuff will be the ones who dump a few hundred dollars into a goldseller and get a million gold that way.
Because its a game and I do like playing the AH (fairly casual AH goblin with only around 2-3 million in total assets now) I try to ignore it but the fact is I spend probably 100+ hours messing around on the AH for something I could buy from the goldsellers for about an hour of working at my real job.
Last edited by tawnos; 06-18-2012 at 09:19 AM.
A single item will not make or break a first kill.
It's hard to use reskins when you're starting from scratch though.
instant flashback
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1gAHil89Z4
Anyway, back to the discussion of what constitutes a Raiding-focused MMO... Personally I think that to be considered a serious raiding focused MMO, a game has to have a solid, advanced UI with features like threat and DPS meters, readycheck or voting systems, target and location marking, etc. Support for mods would be nice, but I don't think that should be a crutch. Another must is a great queuing/looking for group system.
In most new MMO's that I have tried out, it seems like all of those things are an afterthought in the designing of the game. I played LOTRO for a good period of time, and the UI was simply atrocious. In fact the former lead producer admitted that they used the UI code from Asheron's Call 2 to build LOTRO's UI... It was bad. Real bad.
Well of course. The first part has left out the conditional modifier. We're left to guess at the inclusiveness of the statement.
That aside.... I would expand on this.
An MMO COULD focus solely on raiding so long as they are prepared for the aftermath. Say.... the potential loss of PvP players.... players that are unable to participate in raiding in whatever format which presented.... difficulty of said raiding.... etc. WoW became MUCH more about raiding in Cata, and we've seen some of the effects.
I'll kindly disagree. A lot of that stuff is simply a crutch that you've been trained to accept as "necessary". I can envision those things being integrated into a game where strategy would be very demanding, but then again, when you start adding those things in..... are you really learning how to play and beat the challenge on an "organic" level?
This is one of my peeves about raiding as it currently is. YES.... I understand the role that these tools play for the "modern" raider. Here's the rub.... what the f*** did you people do BEFORE this stuff was available? How much of a challenge would it be to tackle bosses without these things? People "claim' they want a challenge, but it becomes increasingly difficult to create those challenges when you start throwing these things in. It's like doping for cycling in a way..... yes, you can't "raid" because you're not "doping" like everyone else.
Want a challenge? Go run DS with the raw UI, no vent, no DMB..... and see how well you do. See if you guys can rehearse and get your choreography down where you guys can do it on the fly like that. I know... the argument is "no one does that", or "why should I gimp myself intentionally from being able to perform at my utmost!". Well damn..... why should I train clean and not do steroids then? Wtf was I thinking.
Second issue........
Blizzard is defeating itself with the stat inflation. We all like to claim it's all about skill, but gear plays a HUGE factor. Imagine if top level was 60, and gear had very nominal increases as new raids released. Say, one or two more points total on any particular gear that's released out of a new raid. Molten Core, AQ, Kara, BT..... all of these would STILL be challenges in some way, shape, or form, simply because we haven't escalated gear/levels to spiraling new heights. Yes... I know. I'm a heretic. You gotta have your "significant upgrade". Problem is.... the cost of this was that you drove yourself right out of the existing content.
So let me pose a question...... which would be more satisfying? Having a lot of raid material available that is still relevant?...... Or having big fat increases in gear power that marginalizes/reduces the skill required to accomplish these raids?
Raiding is what it is. I'm not going to be able to change it. This machine is built and well-underway with a full head of steam. Blizzard has already announced they aren't going to touch the stats, so that is a bit of a loss. People won't start running "clean" UI's. So that's a loss too. So how is Blizzard supposed to create new material that is challenging to people who are running suped-up UI's and who are able to coordinate with vocal commands? Blizzard DID kinda do that with heroic Ragnaros..... and look at the hate and discontent that came out of that. (though in all fairness..... Blizzard really screwed up with the bosses leading up to Rag and not having them 'step up' to Rag in a good way.)
I don't envy their position, because to me.... it seems like they are fighting against a situation that is becoming increasingly "unwinnable".
No one tanks in a void.........
I like this, via Addons WoW provide you with the best tools to make a UI useful in many ways to different kind of players, but there is not THE Raiding UI yet, I would prefer that all is provided by the game developer too; so they don't need to sanction what is too much of help from some external script or something.
In that regard I would call that if trinity is used then something have to be done for healers, the need to constant watch the raid frames limits the raid awareness required from the overall encounter. I was thinking that all the heals should be smart heals, maybe something that redirect your direct heals to some specific target (maybe only targeting the enemy and the heal goes to its target). But in this way if you see a pulsing stuff on some area, you put your healing area there or start casting your aoe, you watch at the environment no the frames, like the dps do; this way the mechanics could be more complex, based on the fact that your abilities are done via muscle memory.
Now about prestige, titles and gear recolors? Based on % of people that have killed? If you have to choose, what would represent you prestige in a raid-only game? How to showoff?
surely creating an entire sandbox world with leveiling content and mobs models, and PVP maps and raid maps and boss models would be slightly harder?
In the vast majority of cases with modern UI elements, they are not crutches. They are crucial elements in establishing a depth of gameplay for raiders. The exception would be scripts that made decisions for players, such as telling them which add to kill. Butmost of the time, UI mods are just giving players information in a better way and letting them communicate better. That does nothing but add to the experience. It is sort of a cycle, but in a good way. I'd much rather have an excellent UI and communication tools and be expected to tackle a complex problem as opposed to having bad tools and be given a simple task. I'd rather the challenge be in the fight rather than working against my UI. And that's why I said that for a raid-focused MMO, I believe a solid UI with advanced features is necessary. I would be fine with a MMO not supporting mods as long as they put a serious effort into having a good UI and updating it with innovations periodically. The basic raid frame UI in WoW is leaps and bounds beyond what it was initially, and far outclasses what you see other new MMO's coming out with.
A couple of examples:
1. DPS meters. If you don't have a DPS meter, then it's very hard for a player to judge their own performance and test various specs/abilities/gear. It's also hard for leaders to judge how their raid team is doing, identify problems, etc. How are you going to work to squeeze out that 5% more DPS, when you have no way of telling exactly how much damage you are doing? You aren't. You'll just do what seems good, and that's that. Lack of a DPS meter doesn't add anything to the game, it just takes away. It makes the developers less able to put in things like DPS checks to fights. If you have a team wiping because someone isn't carrying their weight, and the team doesn't have any reasonable way to see what's going on, that's just terrible design that is going to frustrate players.
2. For a more concrete example, look at the searing plasma debuff on the first deathwing fight which absorbs a certain amount of healing. The idea is to heal people that get the debuff to clear it, ideally in the most mana efficient manner possible. DBM has a feature which shows which players have the debuff and how much additonal healing is going to be absorbed. So the UI is providing me with detailed information, which allows me to make better decisions about how to deal with the situation. That's adding depth.
Second issue........
Blizzard is defeating itself with the stat inflation. We all like to claim it's all about skill, but gear plays a HUGE factor. Imagine if top level was 60, and gear had very nominal increases as new raids released. Say, one or two more points total on any particular gear that's released out of a new raid. Molten Core, AQ, Kara, BT..... all of these would STILL be challenges in some way, shape, or form, simply because we haven't escalated gear/levels to spiraling new heights. Yes... I know. I'm a heretic. You gotta have your "significant upgrade". Problem is.... the cost of this was that you drove yourself right out of the existing content.
So let me pose a question...... which would be more satisfying? Having a lot of raid material available that is still relevant?...... Or having big fat increases in gear power that marginalizes/reduces the skill required to accomplish these raids?
Raiding is what it is. I'm not going to be able to change it. This machine is built and well-underway with a full head of steam. Blizzard has already announced they aren't going to touch the stats, so that is a bit of a loss. People won't start running "clean" UI's. So that's a loss too. So how is Blizzard supposed to create new material that is challenging to people who are running suped-up UI's and who are able to coordinate with vocal commands? Blizzard DID kinda do that with heroic Ragnaros..... and look at the hate and discontent that came out of that. (though in all fairness..... Blizzard really screwed up with the bosses leading up to Rag and not having them 'step up' to Rag in a good way.)
I don't envy their position, because to me.... it seems like they are fighting against a situation that is becoming increasingly "unwinnable".
At some point, the benefit of having older content still relevant becomes practically non-existent. In fact, there were huge problems with multi-tier raiding in vanilla/BC. What you ended up with was a vicious cycle where guilds stuck in a lower tier would gear up new players trying to progress. Then once those new people got the gear they needed, they were able to jump ship and join a guild successfully raiding the next tier. It unwillingly turned many guilds into farm leagues for "better" guilds, and that's the reason that Blizzard practically makes all but the most current raid tier obsolete.
Your plan may sound good in theory, but it falls apart in reality. It's better just to focus on the new stuff. That's what people get excited about anyway. And you can still have older content updated from time to time, offering a nostalgic experience.
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