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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - What if MoP Released Without Raids?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Patching is completely different from being Done, especially when we're talking about complex multiplayer games, not single player games where it doesn't really matter if someone figured out how to break the game or not.

    ZOMG NERF LUIGI HE CAN JUMP A PIXEL HIGHER THAN MARIO!!!
    You're right. Patching is completely different from being done.

    When a game is truly "done"..... there are no mods or changes or debugging performed. No one got to go back to Doom once it was put on the shelves and say, "OH HEY.... WE BOOGERED THIS UP..... OUR BAD....".

    Video game devs used to actually have to make sure EVERYTHING worked as well as it could before release. They did not have the magic of the internet that would allow them to release "patches" to fix game design problems they had overlooked. As for the matter of complexity, there were some complex multiplayer games that were released that DIDN'T get patched..... say, like the original Star Craft at release.

    All I'm saying is things have changed. I don't expect any game anymore to be released as "done"..... and honestly.... it'd be freakin' insane to expect or even WANT that. With internet connectivity.... a game dev would be irresponsible to NOT continue work on their product and providing customer service to ensure that the game performance is the best it can be.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  2. #102
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    Fine, I'll use a different f***ing word, "releasable state."
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    I honestly believe that gating is one of those cases where people complain about it even though it's good for them. We want to be able to consume all the content immediately, but we also want it to stretch out over several months.
    This is the big conundrum. If they held back raiding for a few weeks people will bitch. If they release raiding at launch, some people will bitch that the next tier doesn't come out fast enough because they cleared all the content and are bored. If they hold back release of MOP til everything is ready, people will continue to bitch about having to farm DS. There's no win for Blizzard, so honestly they should just go ahead and release content the way they want. I don't think they have any intention of holding back raiding, but if they were to do this, in the grand scheme I think it would be good for the game, despite the amount of negative feedback they'd get over it.

    I don't like weird gating like ICC because it does have an effect on the 'race', but holding back all raids for a couple of weeks has no effect on the race other than when it starts. I remember in the first tier of Cata raiding when the top guilds were complaining about the amount of effort it took to get through all the content. Well, wouldn't easing the initial push of getting raid geared and into raids actually help with that. If you had two full weeks to get your character(s) ready for raiding, it would make it seem far less crazy and I would think you would actually be fresher and more ready to dive in if given some time to prep yourself properly rather than feeling like you had to get to 90 and get geared up by day 2 of the xpac because raids started that night.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    It's not about protesting at all. It's the aspect of the game that I enjoy. Thus, if said content isn't there, why would I (or anyone else that shares similar sentiment) buy the game?
    Why would they buy the game? Maybe so that they can be prepared to walk into raids the moment they're made available.

    Even if the xpac shipped without raids, any and all serious raiders would still buy it, simply so that when raids were released they'd already be level 90, in full 5man heroic gear, fully enchanted, already maxed their professions, and stocked up on food and consumables and otherwise fully prepared to start killing raid bosses as soon as they became available.

    If you wait until the raids are released to buy the xpac then you're going to have a lot of catching up to do before you could step into those raids. And chances are the rest of your guild isn't going to want to wait for you to finish playing catchup when you could have done all of that stuff in the weeks before the raids came out.

    Simply put, by waiting to buy the xpac you would be voluntarily choosing to be unprepared for those raids that you claim to care so much about.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    When a game is truly "done"..... there are no mods or changes or debugging performed. No one got to go back to Doom once it was put on the shelves and say, "OH HEY.... WE BOOGERED THIS UP..... OUR BAD....".
    Regardless of what side of the debate your on, this seems like an odd game to use as an example. Doom was ~50MB in size... TOTAL. Games of today are 15-40GB... When you're writing 1000's of lines of code, it's far easier to release a bug free game than when you're writing 10's of millions of lines.

    EDIT: Typo... Doom was 50MB, not 5MB. :P
    Last edited by Slyvar; 06-07-2012 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #106
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    Great Idea!

    I hope Blizzard does delay the release of raids with MoP! Two weeks or more would be awesome.

  7. #107
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    Lore,

    There really are a lot of us who only play for the raiding. I think that would cover probably half of my raid team. I think that is a reasonable thing to say, and that doesn't mean that someone who only likes raiding shouldn't be playing WOW. I think you yourself actually said something to the effect of "WOW is big enough for everyone". There's room for people who aren't interested in anything but raiding, just like there's people who are interested only in achievements, or pets and pet battles, or the AH, or PVP, or whatever. That's one of the real strengths of WOW.

    I don't really like leveling. It is boring and repetitive, and WOW really shows its age the most during the leveling experience. I think it is the weakest part of the game, even after the Cata revamps. I don't think it should be removed, however. I know that some people enjoy just gradually leveling through stuff, and that's fine. It is a nice way to get to know your character and your class, at least on a casual level.

    PVP is a huge grind, and often it feels like you are held back by your class. However, I don't think having it in the game, or even having to suffer nerfs/buffs to raiding due to PVP changes is hurting the game.

    Despite how rude some people are being in these comments, I don't think you have a leg to stand on when you say people who only enjoy raiding shouldn't be playing WOW.


    Now, to your suggestion.

    I think it would have worked in earlier expansions, when expectations for WOW expansions were still being set in place. People would have started to expect a "starter period" before raids came out in which they could use to level.

    Right now, I don't think it would be a good idea just to not have raids at all in the ship. That would definitely NOT go over well and with Blizzard's recent struggle with subscriber numbers, something like that could have a detrimental effect on the overall health of the game. That's the kind of thing that kills MMOs. Now, I do like your idea of shipping the raids, but not opening them for a week or two. That would have the same effect as not shipping the raids (providing a window for a sane pacing for leveling), but it would immediately undercut any complaining that might come from not shipping raids.

    They already do it with the PVP season, so why not just let us level up and gear up for few weeks before opening the raids? As a raid leader, I definitely approve (we had a lot of issues with people wanting to raid t11 when they simply weren't geared for it at the start of Cata). There's also that hazy "so, when should we start raiding" question that hangs over your head the first few weeks. Everyone will have to do enough 5 mans to get the minimum ilvl for raid finder (and thus, start farming tier bonus sets again) anyway.

    I'm willing to wait a little longer for a MoP with raids. I'm all for a 2 week moratorium on raiding at the start of the expansion though. That will at least make sure everyone is at the starting line before starting the race.
    Last edited by Knighterrant81; 06-07-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  8. #108
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    Was Kara availible at release in TBC? I seem to remember there being a month gap between when TBC dropped and when Kara opened... or am I imagining things... that was so long ago.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  9. #109
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    Like how D3 was "done"? They're still patching it.
    They've released patches for Diablo 2 relatively recently as well. They went and released a sequel before they finished the 2nd one...right?

    Video game devs used to actually have to make sure EVERYTHING worked as well as it could before release.
    No, no. Go back to your old games. Now, take off your rose-colored glasses, go back through all the literature and guides, where they will talk about all sorts of bugs and exploits. Those are all things that will never get fixed. There were just as many bugs before the advent of patching, they just never were fixed so we just learned to take them as part of the game. Things are better with constant patches.

    For example: I used to play a lot of Super Nintendo RPGs back in the day. Final Fantasy 6 (one of the most successful RPGs for a system known for its RPGs) had TONS of bugs. The Evade stat simply didn't work at all. You could easily crash the game by using one of the main character's baseline skills. There is a HUGE bug that allows you to make just about every enemy in the game a cakewalk (Vanish-Doom bug). Secret of Mana 3 is simply missing critical hits. Those bugs have a real effect on gameplay (Vanish-Doom basically breaks the entire game, broken Evade makes you devalue some equipment, broken crits means certain abilities are completely worthless). Those are all cartridges, so there's no going back and patching that. They just stay broken (or get fixed years later in re-releases, that have their own bugs which can't be fixed either).

    Patching doesn't mean the game isn't finished. It just means game developers are actually using that thing we call the Internet to its full effect to better support their products. If you want your bugs solidified in concrete like back in the bad old days, well, you can go back to playing those old games.
    Last edited by Knighterrant81; 06-07-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Was Kara availible at release in TBC? I seem to remember there being a month gap between when TBC dropped and when Kara opened... or am I imagining things... that was so long ago.
    Kara was available, there was just a lengthy attunement process involved.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Was Kara availible at release in TBC? I seem to remember there being a month gap between when TBC dropped and when Kara opened... or am I imagining things... that was so long ago.
    It certainly shipped w/TBC...there was, however, a fairly non-trivial attunement to obtain.

    Edit: :| Beaten to the punch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  12. #112
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    Okay, it was probably just a month before my guild had enough people attuned then... God that was like... 5 years ago... I feel old...
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    Despite how rude some people are being in these comments, I don't think you have a leg to stand on when you say people who only enjoy raiding shouldn't be playing WOW.
    Didn't say that at all. I said that if you didn't enjoy everything that isn't raiding AND you didn't enjoy raiding then you shouldn't be playing WoW.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Okay, it was probably just a month before my guild had enough people attuned then... God that was like... 5 years ago... I feel old...
    You're like half my age...silents ur faes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  15. #115
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    Kara was available from release, but the attunement took a while at the beginning because the instances took ages.

  16. #116
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    More like 2/3rds...
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Several people seem to be disagreeing with you :P
    Hmmm, yes, it does seem that there is a divide over this idea.

    Arguments can be made for both sides of the coin, whether it be taking your time to smell the pokemons along the way approach or race to the finish and do the pokemons later, but my concern is this:

    The Abyssal Maw raid.

    Fact is, Blizzard has broken trust with many of their players. I'm picturing a scenario where instead of getting 3 raids at launch as we were promised, one would be delivered after "everyone had a chance to level to 90", a second released as a patch 8-12 months down the road and the 3rd to be scrapped entirely.

    I think that scenario would play out by way of the PTR testing & debugging of the raids. Would it be done before the half-a-panda-pack was released? Would the raids be complete, just unavailable at launch or would they still be in development? Would there be guaranteed raid release date at launch or would it be something they patch in when they think "we" are ready?

    With the possible sale of Activision-Blizzard on the table in a couple weeks, I think this is a valid concern.

  18. #118
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    I would like to toss out my 2 on the two themes this thread is running: will the lack of raids be bad at the beginning of the expansion and should Blizz only ship a finished product.

    Being in a more casual, yet still raiding guild, and having that mindset, I think this could be a good thing overall. But let's get the bad parts from my perspective settled. First off no raids, no sweet epics and no mad race to world/realm first boss kills. Until release and two weeks into raiding we will see the forums lit up like this one with fairly sharp divisions worse than current U.S. politics, avoid trade chat. The top guilds will have more time on the PTR and make the race shorter, for fans of the race. Grouping into randoms with disgruntled raiders [who may not be as 1337 as they think], upon seeing you backpedal, keyboard turn, miss an interrupt or stand in the fire too long will give you a personalized message on your performance evaluation. All the while doing those exact things because 'heroics are easy' (tm) and beneath them.

    Now the good. Having a couple of weeks to get my rotations together, and this goes for a lot of the more casual player. A lot of people enjoy the lore of the game, presented basically as an adventure that you take a part in is pretty cool. I get it from reading Tolkien, Jack Vance, Jules Verne, Wells, Lovecraft and many others, if I can get it while playing a game all the better. Silly stuff is fun. Pet battles are not my whole thing and I will not hit them too much, but will have my Halloween box trained. I think of it as Tonk battles, and should be linked to Darkmoon, but I digress. Two weeks of gear, professions and farming is huge. I had to wait a month to get my crafted epics, mostly because of bad luck with soulbound chaos orbs. And my guild like many others was in mad flux at the beginning of Cata, it may be again at the start of MoP. Some chill time to digest what is out there and break in the new shoes is a good thing.

    Which brings me to the finished product thing. Waiting two weeks may be good, too bad it will not likely happen that way, C'est la vie. When I first began gaming it was Dungeons and Dragons, the pen and paper version with dice. I am a dinosaur. RPG's were unlike box games like chess, Monopoly, Risk, Life and the rest. They were also not like their other contemporary model, the wargame, played with a metric ton of miniatures. But all RPG's had one thing in common: the released product was not a finished product, just like modern MMO's. Neither type can in fact be finished products, new material must be constantly flowing. Doubt this? then why are all raiding tiers separate patches? (tbh did not play in WoW Classic or BC, but my research on the web goes in this direction. Yes I came along in Wrath.) Did you have to wait for the final raid boss for up to 2 years till it came out? We used to wait for books in the same manner. An expansion, adventure or rules update, we still played with what we had at the time. We have more now, the mechanics are all in the background, we feel more integrated, we can group with those of a like mind across the planet.

    We can wait two weeks.

    Easytarget-not just a descriptor in pvp, but now on the forums.

  19. #119
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    Great Idea!

    If Blizzard does this, AND THEN LAUNCHES the raids as announced, it will be brilliant. Realistically, Blizzard has several ways to show that they are doing this. If the raids are on PTR by the time of launch, (which they would have to be to make it to live within a month), then it does show us that blizzard WILL keep their promises and the content will be there and it lets us enjoy MOP and then start raiding a few weeks later. Absolutely, positively, brilliant. It would make things measurably easier on my guild. It will also allow people to join guilds easier for longer, since players can level up and be recruited without a gearing penalty for an extra 2-3-4 weeks.

    Plus, if raids came in the "bug fix patch" (which might be too early), that will improve the quality of raids by presumably limiting class-stacking necessities.

    To be honest, the biggest drawback to me would probably be the impact on PVP.

  20. #120
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    Ok. My main thing with this is..... honesty.

    I don't want us getting all psyched for MoP and then have Blizzard say, "Oh.... we're going to gate raids until 2 weeks later for some lame reason." If your philosophy is going to be, "we'll release it when it's done," then make sure it's done.

    Evidence exists (see above posts) that a significant number of players EXPECT raids to be there ready to roll from day one. If that isn't going to be the case..... say it. Tell your players, "We want to get new content out to you guys fast and we don't want to hold people back from MoP and leveling just because we are working on the raid content. We're going to release MoP MM/DD/YYYY and we will release the first raid tier on MM/DD/YYYY + 3 weeks." Or better yet, use those forums that you guys say you use for player feedback and conduct a poll..... MoP sooner but raids not ready or MoP later with raids at get-go?

    Either way, Blizzard's previously awesome rep has taken some hits as of late. Whichever way Blizzard runs with it, MoP needs to come out and seriously kick some ass. Blizzard needs to deliver on what they say they are going to deliver. If they've promised 3 raids at launch..... well, guess what..... there needs to be 3 high-quality raids ready at launch. Not two weeks later. If you promise a real money auction house, and you use that as part of your rationale for "always-on", that stuff better work. Oh... and this is WoW.... your servers better be ready to handle the influx of players at release. No surprises. You guys have been in this business and handling 10+ million customers for how long???..... things need to work like you're the company that has been handling the largest online player community for the longest time, not like you're an upstart developer. You guys aren't new to this.

    No one tanks in a void.........

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