The Weekly Marmot - What if MoP Released Without Raids?

[Leucifer]

Kara was available, there was just a lengthy attunement process involved.

So, just out of curiosity Lore, how would you feel about it if in MoP, the raids, at launch, had attunement requirements? If they're something you would accept, what would you say would be ideal for the length of that process? And should each instance have it's own separate attunement?

Heck, what's anyone's thoughts on that? I suspect the response won't be positive, as it's seemed that the "more serious" raiders want to dive straight in to raids. I might be wrong though.

[Nagassh]

So, just out of curiosity Lore, how would you feel about it if in MoP, the raids, at launch, had attunement requirements? If they're something you would accept, what would you say would be ideal for the length of that process? And should each instance have it's own separate attunement?

Heck, what's anyone's thoughts on that? I suspect the response won't be positive, as it's seemed that the "more serious" raiders want to dive straight in to raids. I might be wrong though.

I'd be fine with it. I enjoyed the progression of normals -> heroics -> raids that was present in TBC, though that seems dead these days, you wear (or have in your bags) whatever gives you the ilevel to get into LFR / queued heroics and then just pick up gear from stupidly easy content, then go raid.

That's a completely different scenario from releasing MOP without raids though, that's gating to keep people from diving straight into raids, not releasing the game early because your raids aren't done. While I don't particularly dislike not being able to jump into raids instantly, I don't like the principal of releasing an expansion without raids.

I also wouldn't call the karazhan attunment length, iirc it was two or three quests outside kara, followed by Shadow labs, Steamvaults, Arcatraz and BM. You can argue there were other steps (like Black Morass attunement), but if you were interested in raiding, chances were you were going to have run the instances that "attune" you to the 5mans already.

You could easily do that in a few hours with a guild group.

[BLSTMASTER]

I think it really comes down to perception.

Even if Mop were to launch earlier than it would have with the raids and if the raid would launch when it was supposed to anyway, the delay would make it seem like raids were 'pushed back'.

Remember what happened when they launched 4.1 with ZA/ZG and then they launched 4.2(firelands) later?

Even when blizz said that they were pushing 4.1 forward because it was ready and that 4.2 was going to come as was scheduled, people saw it as a raid being pushed back. (Determining if blizzard was 'lying' or not is a different issue. If you can't 'trust' blizzard to give you accurate information then patches aren't the problem )

I personally like the idea, I think a lot of people do. But a LOT more will see it in a negative light I think..

[Gregasaurous]

"All i care about is raiding therefor a 2 week delay is delaying my gameplay" I call shenanigans on this argument. Quite simply wether you like it or not, there is more to raiding than being in the raid. This is the way WoW works. If you disagree, i feel sorry for the poor bastard carrying your guild by doing all the farming for your consumables and flasks.

[Lore]

I'd be fine with attunements again as long as there are no steps that require a raid. The issue with attunements in TBC was that you often found yourself dragging your whole 25-man raid back to SSC or TK just so you could attune some new guy to BT or Hyjal. If it was limited to solo and maybe 5-man content, they'd be fine.

Example: imagine if, in order to do Firelands, you had to do the Thrall chain (the one that starts in Mount Hyjal). Doesn't seem like too much to ask.

That doesn't really accomplish what a 2-week gate on the raids would, though.

[zombiefodder]

While I would love to raid but can not due to current location and work schedule, I think the attunement process is broken for anyone who would be trying to raid later on in the patch. There was a post prior that talk about how hard T11 was compared to the other tiers. One of the reasons it was harder was because of the lack of pervious heroic mode gear. T11 may have been harder but most people seem to agree that out of the three tiers of gear this expansion, T11 was the best of it. Most of the raiding community likes a challange. If this 2 week preseason were to start (which is what is should be called), I think that it will not make the content last longer. What makes a tier final? Is it beating the last boss on heroic, getting all of the achievements for the meta mount, is it getting BiS for your toon?

[Lrot]

I'm in the camp that feels a brief two week wait for raids to open would do no harm whatsoever. WoW is a huge game, and it's going to get even bigger with MoP. I'd like to sample the new additions at my leisure without the pressure to race to max level as quickly as possible. I enjoy the questing/leveling experience, as I feel the lore gleaned from questing enriches my enjoyment of the game, places the raids in a sensible context, and fleshes out the new continent, races, and characters.

I enjoy raiding, but I like to know why I would want to go into an instance and kill bosses, and questing reveals the lore and historical significance of both the instances and the bosses within. I enjoy a raid much more when my understanding goes beyond mere mechanics and strategy, and I prefer to have that understanding before going into a raid, rather than raiding and retroactively discovering the lore behind it.

I realize that's not critical to everybody's enjoyment of raiding, but it helps make each raid feel like an "event", and to me at least, it lends each instance more significance, and makes clearing it more satisfying as a result.

[sifuedition]

While I don't get the same things from the lore as Lrot, I know people who do and it's valid.

I agree with zombiefodder, I don't think an attunement is the right way to present it if you wanted a 2 week gate because that goes beyond affecting the launch.

Just another thought that I haven't heard yet...addons.

Call me bad if you want but addons make a huge difference in my play. Being able to have health bars, raid frames, buffs/debuffs/action bars, etc, etc where I want them and displayed where I can process the info as fast as possible gives me an edge. Two weeks might let the addon developers take one or two fewer bottles of Pepcid during launch to have them working correctly again.

[Fetzie]

Call me bad if you want but addons make a huge difference in my play. Being able to have health bars, raid frames, buffs/debuffs/action bars, etc, etc where I want them and displayed where I can process the info as fast as possible gives me an edge. Two weeks might let the addon developers take one or two fewer bottles of Pepcid during launch to have them working correctly again

Most active mod writers get beta keys from sites like wowinterface, they start writing the mods months before 5.0 goes live.

[laxu]

Lore you're a genius, I mean c'mon there's so much new stuff to do, forget pet battles, there's a WHOLE NEW CLASS(and not a hero one) wich can fill EVERY ROLE! Everyone should be able to mess around with the monk a little, remember 9 million people don't have the beta and have no idea how the monk plays. In conclusion I really think blizz should listen to you on this one.

[kurn1701]

here's the thing. the pvpérs have to wait for the new season to start. why don''t the raiders have the same sort of wait??
no matter which way blizz does it, some1 will be complaining. thats is the only thing thats 100% certian.

[harleyreefer]

A race is still a race, no matter where the starting point is. As long as everone starts in the same place at the same time, then the race will be just as exciting, no matter if you get to gear up before the start or not. If there is a date that everything will be ready for release, but the rest is ready except raids before that date, lets say 2 weeks, then why not release the rest first? If riads are going to be ready on Aug 15, but the rest is ready on the 1st of Aug, then why the heck not release the rest first? You still dont get to raid before the 15th, but at least you could roll your panda, battle your pets, level a couple alts to cap, run 5 mans or the ton of other things that will make your toon better for the raids. I know this site has a lot of raiders in it, but seriously, the majority of the 10 million people in wow will never see a raid, unless its in LFR, and thats still going to be a small percentage of the population. Everyone ( almost ) will be rolling a panda, leveling, working on professions and getting new gear as they max out thier toons. We are talking about a couple weeks here, not waiting for another tier. PVP has done the like for ages. As for not playing the game untill the raids are in it, that would be the ultimate "biting your nose off to spite your face". Besides, it might create another race to see who gets the best gear as you start raiding.

[Aggathon]

here's the thing. the pvpérs have to wait for the new season to start. why don''t the raiders have the same sort of wait??
no matter which way blizz does it, some1 will be complaining. that's is the only thing that's 100% certain.

Honestly, this is the best post here, especially the bold part.

[Idefix]

Personally I think there should be this sort of delay between tiers and not just for major releases. What most people don't realize is the amount of depth the game offers, and to just rush or skip over it to only experience a fraction of the TRUE content is a waste.

Questing, Dungeons, Scenarios, Heroic Dungeons, and PvP, may sound like a waste of time to most Raid Only individuals but I play this game to get my moneys worth and that means experiencing every facet of the product I chose to purchase.

Besides a delay in Raids would give us time to level our professions, gather materials needed for standard raiding must haves (potions, flasks, food, gems and enchants), last I checked most do like to walk into a Raid prepared, and while on the topic of farming, there's also those funny tokens I forget the name of, that will give us an extra shot at loot when killing raid bosses, those things wont farm themselves.

[Zulraz]

What most people don't realize is the amount of depth the game offers, and to just rush or skip over it to only experience a fraction of the TRUE content is a waste.

Questing, Dungeons, Scenarios, Heroic Dungeons, and PvP, may sound like a waste of time to most Raid Only individuals but I play this game to get my moneys worth and that means experiencing every facet of the product I chose to purchase.

Besides a delay in Raids would give us time to level our professions, gather materials needed for standard raiding must haves (potions, flasks, food, gems and enchants), last I checked most do like to walk into a Raid prepared, and while on the topic of farming, there's also those funny tokens I forget the name of, that will give us an extra shot at loot when killing raid bosses, those things wont farm themselves.

I like Lores idea and completely agree with playing the game to get my moneys worth and try to experience all of the game (of course to find the time is a problem). Ps It's called a Charm of good fortune. ds

[Krenian]

Did some clutter removal Zulraz!

[xdunpealx]

You guys really want to start raiding within the first week? Really? Then there is no point in the expansion, and they should just give you raiding content.

First you need to lv to 90, and people are going to complain about everything, but that gives you time to
Explore, quest, lore, gather, level professions, learn how to play your character, maybe new guild, maybe recruit for guild

So just in my opinion having to level is a good thing, PLUS everyone has been complaining about world pvp everyone just stands in town and does instant queue. Well leveling also get you back out into the world, which last I check A LOT of people were telling Blizzard they wanted that. I love world bosses, and if a horde or alliance to come in and pvp well that is epic too.

If you release raids within 3 weeks, then the "raiders" are going to be like well we are done raiding... WTF NEW CONTENT! BLIZZARD IS CRAP! Personally I think Dragon Soul and even Firelands was meh I just didn't find it that exciting like going to BT and going OMG look at that! I would think that people would rather have blizzard take the time making fantastic raids instead of rushing them out because "raiders" need something to do. I just hope they find a good medium where you cant just jump into the new raid wearing greens, at least have half heroic/challenge gear. And someone said they dont want to farm items like in Diablo 3... uh... what WoW game you have been playing where gear was not the focus of making your character better?

[Lantis]

Hell, I'd be happy if they went ahead and dropped just the leveling experience right now for that matter. That'd kinda be a crummy thing to slap a $50 price tag on since you'd have to buy this patch instead of install and play, but a few months after finishing the glory of DS achievement my guild stopped raiding, and so stopped even logging in, anyway.

Since we're not doing anything, having something to do in game right now would at least increase the odds that people wouldn't start canceling their accounts over the next few months while waiting on absolutely everything in MoP to get done.

[tawnos]

Not a big deal to me either way but I do like the idea. I'd be annoyed if someone wasn't ready to raid because they couldn't hold in their excitement for pet battles or whatever - those aren't going anywhere and if you end up having to wait a month or two to see them because you're keeping up with your guild that should be fine. The positive benefit I see from it is that it doesn't give as big an advantage at the start of the expansion to the unemployed/college kiddies or those who can just take off of work. When I raided hardcore everquest i usually fell behind at the start of an expansion because the kiddies would just have infinite amounts of time whereas I had exactly the same amount since my time was wholely dictated by work at all times. Then I would catch up as they got bored and shiny things attracted their attention. Having an extra week for this process is a good idea.

[Banzhe]

If it released without raids, well it might as well release without pvp. WoW is a two legged table, cut off one leg and it won't stand up.

This^

The thing about new stuff.., even if you rush and start raiding instantly, the new stuff is still new when you reach the point in raiding where you can relax a bit more and focus on other things. (Same thing when you max out your main, and eventually get around to leveling your farming char)

I'm not overly hyped about always taking from the raiding community and giving to the casual base., given your analogy you may as well deliver the raids but delay everything else, at least this way there's something for "everyone" given the lfr was introduced for that very purpose.

Personally I only see the pet battle system and "challenge" modes as fluff implemented the same way archeology was.., it serves no purpose other then giving you something artificially prolonging your online time.