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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - What if MoP Released Without Raids?

  1. #61
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    i partly like the idea to have a short preperation peroid. getting BiS preraid gear etc without feeling forced to blast thru the lvling in 1 day. but it shouldnt last longer than 1 max 2 weeks.. i would get bored fast and hunger for raids badly after 2 weeks of just heroics and the other "casual" stuff.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrybyn View Post
    You're picking out only part of what he said and using it to validate your complaint about his arguement instead of reading all of what he said. He said, "So you don't like LEVELING, you don't like anything other than RAIDING, and you don't like FARMING gear (which is a core component of raiding)." What it sounds like to me that he's trying to say that WoW is about leveling your toon to farm gear so that you can raid to farm MORE gear. I'm sorry but that is a key component of WoW and what Lore was trying to say is that if you don't like that aspect of the game then maybe WoW's not the game for you. Sure one could probably say that they only raid to experience the content, however you still need to level your toon and gear up in order to experience said content and that's just how it works. If you don't like that part of the game then maybe WoW's not for you. I'm not a huge fan of leveling, nor do I like grinding anything, let alone gear. However I understand that it's all just part of the game and I'm not gonna complain about it. It sounds like to me that you're just trolling Lore for the sake of just trolling and it's, imo, turning into a complete disaster. Bad troll is bad...
    No, personally I'm not interested in pet battles or farmville or even questing at the start of an xpac. I buy the game to raid. there's plenty of time after the content is cleared to derp around with everything else in the game.

    leveling may be a key component to YOU, and that's fine. I'm happy the type of content you're interested in is available, and likewise I want the content I'm interested in to be available or I simply wouldn't buy the game. its that simple. personally I could care less about leveling and I usually push through it as fast as possible.

    If you really believe I have to concur with you gaming philosophy, your just crazy. I'm TELLING you I won't by the game if the raid content isn't out. I'll wait for raids to be released. I'm fairly sure I'm not alone.
    Last edited by Krenian; 06-07-2012 at 08:32 AM.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  3. #63
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    I am a semi-competitive raider (top 500 25 man) ... I guess we're serious but not quite competitive since we only raid twice a week ... but still we take this very seriously and will almost certainly set foot in the first raid in the first week if it's there. That said I think this idea is not bad at all. Honestly there is already a gate of sorts (cannot heroic raid week 1) ... adding a second tier of gating (cannot raid for 1 week, or whatever) would not hurt anything. The competitive raiders (I'm talking top 100) would still take time off to race each other, they would just push back their vacations a week or two and would be a bit more relaxed about their first couple weeks.

    In the end I don't really see this hurting the game at all ... assuming it's at most 2 weeks (1 might be better for a lot of reasons). Would definitely work better for me although I still would expect to be putting in 50+ hours for those first couple weeks anyhow even if I couldn't raid ... perfecting my toon and preparing for the raids ... it just would be at a much more relaxed pace.

    That said who it DOES hurt is the top tier guilds (top 100 again). Part of their advantage is time (they have more of it than most everyone else). This would erase the time advantage and they would lean more on their (very very real) skill/organizational advantage. That said on the other hand this extra time would likely give them enough time to gear/level up alts so they could more effectively play the alt-sub game ... so perhaps in the end it will have little effect on them as well.

    Good idea is good Lore. That said it might be impossible to spin to the population at large. I personally would not be upset either way I guess but your idea would make things a bit more relaxed for me personally.
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  4. #64
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    I am the GM of my guild. I have been consistently playing wow since the end of Vanilla. I cleared Sunwell pre 3.0, Heroic LK a week or so pre-nurf, and did not get our heroic Deathwing kill until 10%-15% nurf i dont really recall. My raiding over the past 7-8 years has become more casual each x-pack.

    my point is this, I think this is a phenomenal idea for myself and our guild. I personally miss the leveling aspect of the game, Let me explain a bit on why. Over the years the WoW raiding scene has not only become easier it has become more popular. There are more raiders than ever before and the content is not as hard. I am confident my guild will clear everything before the next content tier patch each time. So if we slow down we dont lose anything we just can relax and enjoy some other pieces of the game.

    Everyone wants to rush rush rush but look at all of us now.... my guild personally is building a Euphonic-ville in minecraft and playing diablo. We're bored and clear our Heroic DS in like 1.5 hours. It would be a lot more enjoyable to still be progressing through content.

    I guess my only point is if they cant supply us with enough content then slowing down the process in which they distribute it is 100% ok with me.
    Last edited by biotics83; 06-07-2012 at 08:38 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    I'm TELLING you I won't by the game if the raid content isn't out. I'll wait for raids to be released. I'm fairly sure I'm not alone.
    Ok, so let me get this straight I understand you wanting the content right away because your a "hardcore" raider right. Yet you are gonna protest and wont buy the game until raid content is out. So while all of us are level 90 with some heroic 5 man gear rolling into raids you will be level 85 still.... this is a perfect mindset for a "Raider". I wish you were in my guild, also a side note no one is selling you the game so no one gives a shit if YOU wont buy the game.

    Also none of this is actually happening it was an idea someone brought up to create healthy arguments and you have found a way to make yourself look like a ... well I'm sure everyone who can read already has their opinions.
    Last edited by biotics83; 06-07-2012 at 08:41 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by biotics83 View Post
    Ok, so let me get this straight I understand you wanting the content right away because your a "hardcore" raider right. Yet you are gonna protest and wont buy the game until raid content is out. So while all of us are level 90 with some heroic 5 man gear rolling into raids you will be level 85 still.... this is a perfect mindset for a "Raider". I wish you were in my guild, also a side note no one is selling you the game so no one gives a shit if YOU wont buy the game. It would actually benefit your server to shed derps like you from the game.



    Also none of this is actually happening it was an idea someone brought up to create healthy arguments and you have found a way to make yourself look like a ... well I'm sure everyone who can read already has their opinions.
    It's not about protesting at all. It's the aspect of the game that I enjoy. Thus, if said content isn't there, why would I (or anyone else that shares similar sentiment) buy the game? If you think anyone that feels the same way needs to be "shed" from the game, that's an unbelievably selfish opinion to have.

    The thread is cleverly titled " what if". If you're going to sit here and deny that "if_then" chance that a noticeable number of people would probably be unhappy, and potentially hold off, then you're not really here to have a discussion.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    The thread is cleverly titled " what if". If you're going to sit here and deny that "if_then" chance that a noticeable number of people would probably be unhappy, and potentially hold off, then you're not really here to have a discussion.
    I am not going to tell you what you will or will not do in this "what if" scenario ... only you know that and likely not until then. That said I believe the majority of top 100 competitive guilds will still push and compete as though nothing different happened. As I said above the nature of the race might change a bit, but the race would still be alive and well and competitive hardcore raiding would survive this change, if implemented properly. Competitive raiders care much more about the actual race, the competition, and the results than the actual course there. They raced just as hard during T11 as they did during T13, despite the fact that T13 was terribad.
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  8. #68
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    Because you could still gear up to be ready for raiding when it goes live 2 weeks after release anyways?

    Like... Idk, given the choice of "dragonsoul for another 2 weeks but you get raids immediately when the expac drops" or "you have a legitimate reason to not do dragon soul and you're still waiting to raid the same too weeks but you will have had access to heroic 5 man gear anyways so you'll be well prepared" I mean... I'd take the two week break. MAYBE 3. A month is probably too long and I'd rather just wait and any longer than that and I completely agree with all of the nay-sayers here.

    I think the compromise of "you have to wait 2 weeks but you can jump straight into HMs" might also be good too.
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  9. #69
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    I think you;re looking at this from the wrong perspective Truc, Take PVP seasons for example, there's a small break in between each season where they don't compete, Raiders never really get that war up period, we go in hard, kill everything as fast as possible and then cool down. I don't see whats so bad about essentially having a fornight to a month notice on when raiding will start without, you've got a month to sort out any problems that'll jeopardize the raid schedule like people not leveling or realizing they want to reroll.

    THere is always a gap between patch day and when raids become available. sure you could walk into BoT at 85 with you 315 blues/greens, but could you seriously raid then? i know i couldn't, I also couldn't raid the first day i logged on it took me 4 days to hit 85, up until that point i physically was not allowed to enter the raids. so unless you level instantly, the raids are not available at launch anyway.

  10. #70
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    The main issue is how the press would spin it.

    "MOP launches without raids." would really hurt sales figure.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  11. #71
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    Ahem.

    People might want to stop flinging insults at each other. I've already had to deal with a couple of cases.

    Act civilized or I'm going to come down on you like no tomorrow. Fair warning.

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  12. #72
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    True, pity what's best for the game, isn't what's best for sales.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    True, pity what's best for the game, isn't what's best for sales.
    QFT
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  14. #74
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    Let's assume it's 2 weeks, since we're dealing with "what ifs" we can set the time for raids to drop as 2 weeks after launch; could anyone who has a competative bone in their body when it comes to raiding, really wait 2 weeks and not buy the game because there were no raids and put themselves 2 weeks behind the leveling/gearing curve? Isn't that kind of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face? I can't see anyone who finds raiding to be the best part of the game, not wanting to get into the raids as soon as they can.

    Sitting on the sidelines leveling and gearing, while the rest of your server is raiding would be torture. I mean, you may not like it if raids don't launch with the expansion, but I can't see any one who's at all competative gimping themselves cause they're disappointed.

    It makes no sense to me, there's no upside to it.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    I'm kinda confused about something:

    You all want to raid, fine and dandy with that..and yet you kinda are giving me the sense you rather not put the work to get to raid because leveling and getting gear to do the raid is exactly that.
    Kind of ironic, isn't it? Considering much of the Tankspot community normally will go up in arms over people who, I'll loosely quote, "refuse to put in the work to raid." Kind of hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    How boring would the game be and how one dimensional would it be if you were max level and you were thrown in dungeons over and over. Would be a really simple dungeon crawler to do.

    I dunno, leveling is a part of the RPG genre and you can't really get away from that. It makes no sense. That's why I'm a little confused on how many people 'loathe' the leveling process because it's in the way of what they want to do: Raid.

    It wouldn't be an RPG or an MMO if it had absolutely no leveling and no advancement whatsoever to make your toon feel bad. I think this is more of the case that it's been a while now y'all have been playing WoW and that you're tired of always having to level those five extra levels to get back to what it is.

    I dunno, it would just go against the entire idea of what an MMO is by removing those core aspects. I don't get it and I probably never will get the idea behind that.
    Part of the problem Kren, is that leveling has come to mean so very little. Leveling a toon to max level is no longer an 'achievement'. What we've seen happen is..... raiding, and completing the end-game boss at top difficulty has become "leveling". Raiding has, in a way.... become a secondary form of "leveling" in WoW. Gaining gear through raiding and improving said gear is another secondary form of "leveling".

    Let's be honest, the difference between a brand new 85 with greens, and an 85 with a full set of t13 gear, really, the performance difference is not unlike a toon at level 80 Cata greens and a level 85 in appropriate level greens. There is still "leveling" going on at end game, it's just not represented with experience point gain, and the leveling curve/progression slows down.

    I agree with much of your thinking Kren. Part of the problem is that people simply are not challenged by the leveling process. The flip side of that coin is that, if WoW DID make it challenging.... many of these players would quit because they've become accustomed to WoW working a particular way. The perception of how WoW has run in the past is going to dictate their expectations going forward, and a radical deviation from that design will elicit the usual reactions to "change".

    I hate to say it, but Blizzard is really kinda stuck. They can't change this basic model of WoW without alienating their players. They can do it with Titan.... whenever that comes out.... because it's a fresh slate and they can dictate the new model. Other companies can deviate from that course too. HOWEVER..... the problem that we'll run into in either scenario is that.... people will try to apply the WoW model to anything else that comes out, and will still appoach those games with the same expectations. They will project what they know onto it. They will at the very least, compare.

    Hell, there was already evidence of this in Guild Wars 2 beta where they had turned on autoattack because people were whining about it. The original design did not have autoattack, and it was added in. It CAN be turned off, but the response from many..... not shockingly..... was, "Why would I do that?" WoW, while being the champion of the genre.... has also "poisoned the well".
    No one tanks in a void.........

  16. #76
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    At first I also was kinda shocked about that idea.
    There are people who wait for the starts of the expansions to rush and get their raiding realm firsts as soon as possible while most of the other people are still gearing up at heroics..
    But then you said its whether getting MoP without raids or not getting anything at all.
    and I must say I really like the idea after you explain it (:

  17. #77
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    I think it's a scary direction to take, I'm absolutely disgusted by the current gaming industry and the growing trend of releasing unfinished products and then having DLC / we'll add it later / selling alpha / beta games. I find it abhorrent, after watching E3 and finding it a shadow of it's former self, I said to my friend that despite all my gripes about the direction blizzard are going, they're still a pinnacle of quality compared to the rest of the developers. This would be a step in a direction I really can't support.

    That said, I'd still buy MOP if it released without raids, I'd just do the things I usually have to fit in around raiding in advance, achievements would be something to hammer out pre-raiding rather than around raiding. If the delay was any longer than two weeks-ish then I'd have serious problems though, I wouldn't play WoW if there was no raiding, neglecting it in favor of the new stuff they're adding would rub me the wrong way and give the impression that raiding was on the backburner, not being given the attention and quality it needs. Firelands and DS were bad enough, they need to up their game.

    I can also completely sympathies with the people who play WoW only to raid, I personally enjoy doing other things, I enjoy the grinds, leveling, achievement and vanity item farming, but I know plenty of people who are logging in just to raid. Releasing an expansion with no raids - that instantly reduces the motivation to buy it, yes the raids will come eventually, but it's the initial release hype that pushes people to buy, if you're "forced" to take a break from WoW for a month, hey, maybe that's enough to kick the addiction and find a cheaper way of passing time?

    You can argue that you shouldn't play WoW if you "only" like the raiding, but I think that's a stupid argument to make, especially considering how little there was other than raiding in prior expansions, no other game provides the raiding experience WoW does.

  18. #78
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    Givin that leveling is a manditory aspect of this game at this point any way as is farming (gear, ore, herbs, enchanting mats, etc). I agree with alot of what Lore has specified about delaying the raids by a couple of weeks to a month. One thing that I have been thinking about is new farmville for gathering professions. (yes I know its not farmville but its what I hear is called for the most part). This give people the time to get their profressions maxed and their GB' stocked for pots, food, etc. Not knowing how the new farming system works and if it is going to require any large ammount of time. It would be nice to know that the pressures of getting into the raid are on a slight delay to get every detail taken care of.

  19. #79
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    Hmmm

    For 90 to 95% of the population Cata released without Raids, without 5 mans (well they were rather hellish and far too long in DF) and not just for a month....it was for almost a year until 4.3 hit.

    Sure it didn't go too well from a subscription perspective but as I say it was for almost a year and there was nothing else to do.


    Is there really anything to worry about if there is no raid for a month or two? Nah I don't think so. Plenty else to do this time and there will be less turmoil within guilds as those that have to balance the game around their real lives have more time to reach max level and gear up for the first raid.

    Always frustrating at the start of an expansion when those with an excess of time start demanding raids a day after release, leaving the guild etc. If I were still in my hardcore raid guild I'd really appreciate this forced delay.

    Look on the bright side; there is no need to use up precious Leave days taking time off work in order to satisfy your guilds desire to raid. Save them for your summer vacation instead.

    For those that don't have jobs I agree with Lore, the content you will have is going to be better than DS. Just ship it "as is".

  20. #80
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    i lose the idea

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