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Thread: Which to use?

  1. #1
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    Which to use?

    Ok so I have been using dual gurths for awhile now. of different item levels to makwe the proc worth it. Recent I have gotten the ataraxx mace off loot ship 2.0. And the spreadsheets the greatme has posted is not helping. My gurths are the lfr and normal version. So I'm wondering if I should change my offhand to the ataraxx mace? The numbers on the ingame dps seem to be better. But it obviously doesn't take into account the proc rates off gurth ect ect. Plus ataraxx is socketable. What do you guys think?

  2. #2
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    If the mace is the regular version or better, it should provide better steady dps than lfr gurth as an offhand weapon.

  3. #3
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    It is the regular version. I was just under the impression you wanted to run lfr gurth and normal gurth until heroics due to the proc doing 16% of your damage.

  4. #4
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    grab simulationcraft, import yourself run a sim, change weapons, import yourself again, run another sim. best way to see which is higher DPS.

  5. #5
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    Which I have already done and I am getting weird numbers. hence why i asked here and mentioned the spreedsheet.

  6. #6
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    wierd numbers?

  7. #7
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    Yes first it tells me it cant important my character. then when it does it tells me my dps is 15000

  8. #8
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    What's you toons name/server?

  9. #9
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    Gumurak - Thorium Brotherhood

  10. #10
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    Rightio, Assuming you use the same rotation as the the defualt simcraft one, I get you as doing ~39,837 DPS with Gurth+Atraxis, and 39,924 with Gurth+LFRgurth on a patchwork fight. I assumed an epic strength gem in the mace and Landslide on all weapons.

  11. #11
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    Well yes the only problem is landslide is not on the mace. I finally got it to work when i realize the beta version doesnt have warriors added to it yet. No epic gems Im on an rp server lol. And landslide on the atraxxis is not going to happen, 3k just to test is out of the question. Thank you for your time and effort. I was a bit confused when it told me that my BIS is dual h-gurth for top BIS. I was under the impression the spell cast id's for the proc conflict with same i-level gurths.

  12. #12
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    the spell id's do conflict and the difference in dps from lfr gurth to normal atrax is minimal, either go arms or wait until at the very least heroic axe from yorsahj to swap out your lfr gurth.

  13. #13
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    As to dual H-Gurth, I really don't want to sound condescending because that is not the intent...but when you say Landslide on a weapon "is not going to happen" then I don't get the impression dual heroic madness weapons will be an option for you so why worry about it?

    It seems to me, the madness weapons are well designed. The lack of secondary stats but with a strong proc makes it interesting. Do you use the static increase that will always be there or do you go for the RNG that will be better sometimes and worse others?

    Even with the spell conflict, what you are losing is procs from the off-hand. The strength on that is still higher than anything else and at that level of gear, that may still be the best option. OR...it might only be the best when you have good RNG with the other heroic options being the more stable dps.

    Regardless, not all BiS lists are made the same. Feel free to look up Gurth for a ret pally. Opinions are all over the place about To Gurth or Not To Gurth. Boils down to how much RNG do you want?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by captanmurdoc View Post
    the spell id's do conflict and the difference in dps from lfr gurth to normal atrax is minimal, either go arms or wait until at the very least heroic axe from yorsahj to swap out your lfr gurth.
    Appreciate the advice but I'm not going arms.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifuedition View Post
    As to dual H-Gurth, I really don't want to sound condescending because that is not the intent...but when you say Landslide on a weapon "is not going to happen" then I don't get the impression dual heroic madness weapons will be an option for you so why worry about it?

    It seems to me, the madness weapons are well designed. The lack of secondary stats but with a strong proc makes it interesting. Do you use the static increase that will always be there or do you go for the RNG that will be better sometimes and worse others?

    Even with the spell conflict, what you are losing is procs from the off-hand. The strength on that is still higher than anything else and at that level of gear, that may still be the best option. OR...it might only be the best when you have good RNG with the other heroic options being the more stable dps.

    Regardless, not all BiS lists are made the same. Feel free to look up Gurth for a ret pally. Opinions are all over the place about To Gurth or Not To Gurth. Boils down to how much RNG do you want?
    No I mean landslide is not an option, because I'm not dropping 3-4k to "test" a weapon. We are currently doing heroics and 3/8 Morrchok,Yor and Ultra. Being an rp server we don't progress like everyone else. But we do progress. So H-axe is a viable option as we do down him. So yes heroic weapons are something for me to worry about. And yes it did sound a little condescending, but luckily I also understand. Just next time, take a moment to read what I actually wrote.

  16. #16
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    I honestly meant it when I said I don't mean to be condescending but I realized the risk was there just in the nature of the comment. My guild has gone through massive turn-over, then a server transfer, then a guild collapse and rebuilding a new guild this expansion.

    All excuses aside, we are only 3/8 heroic ourselves so I am in no way indicating a superiour attitude. I just mean that even if heroic weapons are a consideration, heroic madness weapons in specific probably are not. Maybe I'm a Debbie Downer, but with end of expansion indifference from raiders and D3 absenteeism, I don't see my guild finishing 8/8 HM at this point even though we are giving it the college try.

    I tried to take give at least as much time to the main and better point of the reply which was about madness weapon design. I think they are designed (intentionally) to not be black or white better. At lower levels they are and then at the top level...well, RNG will decide this pull if it was better or not.

    I kinda like this. It's a risk/reward option with both being viable. Since it is proc based and you can't really control it, then it makes Gurth not an absolute have to option but it has higher potential and maybe an even or slightly better average. As long as you are ok with the occassional lows, then all is well. It's actually a choice. That's hard to do with the playerbase as black and white as it is about min/maxing.

    As a ret pally (OS), I deal with a lot of RNG anyways but for some reason, I still like the RNG on the weapon. If asked about it before DS items were revealed, I would have said I want the static stats to reduce RNG since I am already heavy RNG. Funny to see that I haven't really decided that way.

    Also, a note that should probably be made:

    When Teng said:
    I assumed an epic strength gem in the mace and Landslide on all weapons
    I'm pretty sure he was just indicating the dps numbers were running simulationcraft with those, not that you have to have them on and test. He was just trying to do a min/max comparison. Since they are within 100 dps of eachother, I am pretty sure that is within the variance for the RNG on the Gurth proc in the off hand. Basically, not noticably different either way. The whole point of simulationcraft is to "test" more extensively than you realistically can in game yourself. The simulations it runs are generally accepted to be accurate enough that we rely on the results. Additionally, by being able to simply choose 1000, 10.000, 25,000 w/e iterations, you can eliminate statistical anomolies better than you can on a target dummy.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifuedition View Post
    I honestly meant it when I said I don't mean to be condescending but I realized the risk was there just in the nature of the comment. My guild has gone through massive turn-over, then a server transfer, then a guild collapse and rebuilding a new guild this expansion.

    All excuses aside, we are only 3/8 heroic ourselves so I am in no way indicating a superiour attitude. I just mean that even if heroic weapons are a consideration, heroic madness weapons in specific probably are not. Maybe I'm a Debbie Downer, but with end of expansion indifference from raiders and D3 absenteeism, I don't see my guild finishing 8/8 HM at this point even though we are giving it the college try.

    I tried to take give at least as much time to the main and better point of the reply which was about madness weapon design. I think they are designed (intentionally) to not be black or white better. At lower levels they are and then at the top level...well, RNG will decide this pull if it was better or not.

    I kinda like this. It's a risk/reward option with both being viable. Since it is proc based and you can't really control it, then it makes Gurth not an absolute have to option but it has higher potential and maybe an even or slightly better average. As long as you are ok with the occassional lows, then all is well. It's actually a choice. That's hard to do with the playerbase as black and white as it is about min/maxing.

    As a ret pally (OS), I deal with a lot of RNG anyways but for some reason, I still like the RNG on the weapon. If asked about it before DS items were revealed, I would have said I want the static stats to reduce RNG since I am already heavy RNG. Funny to see that I haven't really decided that way.

    Also, a note that should probably be made:

    When Teng said:


    I'm pretty sure he was just indicating the dps numbers were running simulationcraft with those, not that you have to have them on and test. He was just trying to do a min/max comparison. Since they are within 100 dps of eachother, I am pretty sure that is within the variance for the RNG on the Gurth proc in the off hand. Basically, not noticably different either way. The whole point of simulationcraft is to "test" more extensively than you realistically can in game yourself. The simulations it runs are generally accepted to be accurate enough that we rely on the results. Additionally, by being able to simply choose 1000, 10.000, 25,000 w/e iterations, you can eliminate statistical anomolies better than you can on a target dummy.
    No worries brother, I didn't take offence. Was just pointing out that spending that kind of money to test it was out of the question. And I understood your point and reasoning for it. My guild ios only on for raid days. And frankly wow has burned the fun factor out of it for me. And MOP is going to be major hello kitty adevnture island time. Which is why I want to finish this out, as I probably won't be doing the expansion at all. As for the epic gem theory crafting. My response to that was my very huge lack of knowledge on how to use simcraft. As I only see a way to import gear based off what you are wearing. So my comments were based on not having the spare funds to willy nilly enchant and gem stuff to import and test. That's all.

    As far as the rng goes, I'm finding that dual gurths provide a huge advantage to the rng because of the ability to have so many procs. But time and time again i just happen to notice that you have steady pronounced dps from a static weapon. Which is why Im considering dual axes and dropping gurth all together. With a 20% debuff the gurths really don't provide an advantage over just having a static weapon with gem slots. Although the dps per weapon is much higher on the gurths. Being far away from having any kind of h-gurth what so ever is why I accepted your point of view. Because thats a lofty goal for someone only 3/8 and not even any of them dealing with DW himself.

    As far as the difference between arms and fury. I find for my server, I best or match any arms warrior we have except for one. And that's because he doesnt have a single piece of lfr gear while I'm still half and half. Either way this expansion has made it perfectly clear that you can play whatever the heck you want when it comes to personal decision. And with me having nurve damage and in a back brace from a broken spine. Fury works out of me. Not that you brought that point up, someone else did.

    So as it sits, mace is out, hold off for h-axe drops. But the real question is do I main hand that heroic axe and off hand the normal gurth, which would substainatially lower the proc rate. Or offhand the h-axe and gimp it's dps offhand in favor of normal gurth procs.

  18. #18
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    I wasn't telling you to buy it and test it. I'm saying that if you fully enchant your off hand, Gurth LFR is a better off hand than normal atraxxis.

  19. #19
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    It's nice too see the sim results from that, because personally I was always less than impressed with the LFR Gurth in comparison to anything out of normal DS, I guess I'll have to go give it another look. Currently my Fury set is: NM Gurth/NM atraxxis. Personally I seem to get better numbers out of this setup. Maybe I've just received shoddy RNG compared to the straight statistics that the Sim runs.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I wasn't telling you to buy it and test it. I'm saying that if you fully enchant your off hand, Gurth LFR is a better off hand than normal atraxxis.
    I think we have a miscommunication here. I wasn't saying you were. I was saying I don't know how to test it in simcraft without doing that.

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