Yes sc2 is mainly a 1v1 situation and it works well, the LoL aspect can work well too. Sure there can be trolls or just bads in there as well. Again in order for a ranking ladder to work there has to be a upper, lower, and mid range rung in the mix. That is a risk that each play must chance, the same as if you was to put together a group prior. People may look good on paper, but fail to be able to compete even in a preformed group. The great thing about a good player is the ability to adapt to the situation and perform their job to the fullest. Often games that overcome the bads/trolls/idiots in those random games can make for some of the best matches. Again I will drop the CoD ref again. You hop into a matchmaking game there HcCtF as an example, each player has personal ranking already that is a given but a person's rank(ings) has little to do with the game itself. People are on equal ground at the start, there is an objective, people do their stuff, either poorly or great, and the outcome is off of that. It isn't replacement for full team games, but it is an alternative.
Originally Posted by Valaras
As to trying to pug pre-nerf hc content, yes it can be done and should be possible. I want the community to get rid of this bloody stigma that is attached to pugging away. It is as bad as the hardcore/casual / 10/25 / etc of hogwash. Every bit of content is capable of being done with a pug, a pug does not, by any means, relate to any difference of work required. In earlier times it was quite common to have a good amount of pug's in your group due to various things; the drop to 25/10 lessened this. Not that didn't throw it out the window though, it just placed more responsibility on the people there.
In tbc we typically pugged 2 alt runs every week for bt/mh (pre-swp) most people on most servers rarely even saw this content but yet it was pugged. Swp didn't see much pugs until 3.0 but those of us in there before that patch can understand that. Muru was a guild killer, brut had high dps requirements, rest needed a large amount of coordination. Past that patch it was fairly common to see pugs for this, yes they had to work hard but it was no less than guilds. Hell some guilds still never even seen this content.
Wrath rolls around, and this became even more pug friendly, raiding is starting to catch up. Players are getting better, things become easier, not that the content was extremely hard either... My giant blueberry tanked our server first S+3 kill, so things are not brick wall or cake walk. There are still guilds that struggled with progression, and there was pugs that could breeze through the content at the same time. My weekly pugs got many a HM uld/togc/icc/fl/ds kills before tons of guilds did. Why? Because we worked, people did their job, and those that lacked was gone. Sure bad pugs can happen, but again that comes with the territory same as guild runs. It all comes down to the right leader, communication, proper selection, and effort; again just the same as any guild.
Remember us as the raiding community is still only a fraction of the player base. <5% cleared original naxx, <5% cleared swp pre3.0 and not even 10% has cleared hm ds still. But just because all of the people are not rocking the same guild tag, doesn't mean they cannot execute a scripted encounter as good as those who wear a matching guild tag.
The community rarely agrees on things. Yes the icc ones was not great because of the things of having to do stupid crap and it was a huge hassle and headache to do, specially during progression. But that isn't what Steveh was really talking about. He was talking more on the lines of the X Must Die! quests. Those quests was actually quite successful for a few reasons, they just required a person to go in a kill a boss that was early in the instance, which wasn't really progression raid, and not do anything special . Razor was the only one that required you to kill more than 1 boss, and that was because flame lev was in the way. The older content is always very easily pugged, and happened every day on my servers. They wasn't required since it wasn't relevant content, but the reward was nice, they was still fun, and often led to more than just that boss. Many a time did those runs just turn into a clear just for shits and giggles. The same cannot be said for the ICC ones.
Originally Posted by Gregasaurous
There was no "farming" needed as you said, and well aware of the farming that happens. We have farmed 5 different staffs for recruits past 4.3, many of the uld mace, hell even in tbc we farmed illidan for 80+ kills and never seen a mh glaive drop at all. I had an off hand and our fury had the other off hand that dropped but never a single mh, same with classic content as well, the staff, tf, and sulf.
I am extremely aware of farming old content, but that has nothing to do with the topic that this was on. That is a problem with legendaries. Yes I firmly believe that all the legendary models that have been in game have been bad and that they should be no more, but this isn't the debate for that atm.
This has to do with the weekly quests. In which I believe, and stand by the idea that they could come back but will only work properly if they are for non-relevant content. Do I believe they should give a currency, no because the currency system has changed a whole lot since back in wrath. That model wont work well, in my eyes, but other worthwhile rewards sure. It would be kinda hard to make the rewards not mandatory though which is why I think currency shouldn't be the answer. Which most of us raiders get capped from just the raid alone so if it gave vp, why should I do it?. Maybe consumables could be nice, since you wouldn't "need" to get them but helpful to do so.
For the next batch of clones, under NO circumstance, do you tell them they are adopted. Lesson learned - July 2007.