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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Prestige

  1. #21
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    Is YouTube down ? I just get a 404 Page if i try to Open that link, or any other Youtube link. :-( couldnt even watch it ....

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lrot View Post
    Kind of like hoping Ashes of Al'ar eventually pops up in TK, or the Onyxian Drake (which is actually rarer) in Onyxia's Lair. Is it more prestigious to be rich or to be lucky? Even when those instances were current content and more challenging to clear, it was more a matter of luck to see them drop and win the roll than it was a matter of skill. If the prestige associated with a given item is directly proportional to its relative rarity, than it has less to do with skill and effort than it has to do with pure luck.
    The difference, in those cases, is that you're having to actually do something for the chance.
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  3. #23
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    That was why I referenced the pally mount. It is handed out now. Still doesn't bother me. I want what I want. There are things I like and would like to have but they are not worth the effort to me. For instance, the winterspring mount. Even nerfed, not worth the effort even though I like it. Ashes of Alar, I run every once in a while when someone else wants to go but not worth devoting myself to every week. The swift Zulian Tiger, I want to ride BattleCat but did not see it as worth the random effort to farm it before Cata.

    In reality, I think that there are really two things we are talking about here; rare pets/mounts or rare gear. I can't see any of those having real prestige now since the only thing you are "winning" is RNG. That's likely all you were winning before as well, with the only exception being that you had to be able to clear the content to even get the chance. Not to mention, without the knowledge that xmog would come, you may have had that gear before and this is just a chance to reclaim what you deleted maybe years ago.

    I guess for me, you can't really compare anything in wow to a marathon, etc. Most obtainables in wow are a reflection of time spent and luck rather than a demonstration of skill.

    I kind of look at it like lfr. I know people who got 4 piece in anywhere from 1-3 weeks. My main is the swing tank. I tank on 2 tank fights and dps on 1 tank fights. I need dps gear but rarely get it during progression. I used lfr to try to gear that spec for progression. To this day, I have never won a helm. After running lfr EVERY week, I have determined that the pay off is not worth the effort anymore. I have been able to complete lfr every week since it released and normal for months now. Getting that helm is clearly not a reflection of skill and niether are most of these things being discussed as possible BMAH items. I just can't see a NEED to restrict the distribution of these items.

    Also, why do we want things others can't have? Just so that others can be...envious, if you like that word better? If everyone in SW was on Ashes, I really wouldn't care. Any mounts I want, I want because I think they look good, not because of their rarity. Don't get me wrong, from stamp collectors to wine to art to whatever, there are a lot of people who like having exclusive items. I get that to a degree. I just can't get it to apply the same way to pixels in a game in my mind.

    The only way I can see even trying to make anything exclusive is to tie it to it's original difficulty. Like the suggestion before, making an item level restriction for the achievement is maybe the best you can do. However, with changes in talent trees, especially the changes in when certain talents are available to a class, you can never truly preserve the design intent for difficulty. If you can't do that, then your Olympics medal becomes a Special Olympics medal no matter what you do after the fact.

  4. #24
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    I brought up this topic you speak of Lore once a while back, and was called an Eliteist. This was when gear began being given out to everyone for next to no effort.

    When they began removing class quests and giving Warlock and Paladin mounts to everyone without earning it. Was called an eliteist.
    When druids were given their epic flight without the quest chain done. Same thing.

    Slowly Blizzard began pushing me away from their game by giving everything to everyone for nothing.

    Achievements kept me in Warcraft for a while until they began making them easier and then finally the nail in the coffin for me was when they out-right removed achievements I had spent a long time doing such as Key-Master.

    So once they began removing stuff I had done, that was it for me. No point me doing anything in the game as Blizzard will just take it away. As I said, that was the final nail in the coffin for me.

    Now I just log in to code add-ons as there literally isn't nothing much that interests me in Warcraft these days.

    EDIT: Back on topic
    I agree there should be something to make you feel better than another for doing something another had not done. I believe green gear should be given for quests, blue gear for dungeons, purple for raids. Legendary gear (not so much stats, but colour and gear model) should be given to heroic raiders. Something to make people drool and want to go and do that content. And as for PvP gear, I don't see why they can't add another colour and have red as the PvP gear identifier.

    I think class quests should return for mounts... and if you do them, your mount is a unique model and colour compared to the version that you can buy.

    I know this is CasualCraft now and things need to be available to all who just want to log in, scratch their butt and buy something or raid for 5 minutes and get a sword. But their should be a difference in the rewards for those vs the ones who go after the harder quests and raids.

    If that makes me eliteist for thinking it, so be it I guess.
    Last edited by Maziel; 05-24-2012 at 02:07 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    The difference, in those cases, is that you're having to actually do something for the chance.
    Agreed, but if the effort is minimal, and these days with TK and Ony it is, what makes those mounts prestigious?
    It could be argued that it takes just as much, or even more effort to reach gold cap.
    Is that achievement any less prestigious?

    I feel somewhat similar to the way you do, I just want people to really think about what they consider prestigious, and why.

  6. #26
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    Something to make people drool
    Preface: I don't mean to attribute this attitude to you, just stating a common attitude I've seen in these types of threads!

    This is the main contention I would have. I dislike the idea that "I should have this to make people want it, but if they get it too, then Blizz is just giving it way". What is really being said usually, is that you want it and you want it exclusively. When most of these items are pure luck, there is no way to measure who "should" have it and who shouldn't. Sorry, but the Alysrazor mount and Stonecore mount I saw go to a d-bag we were carrying through the content because he won the rolls the only times we saw the drop. That is true for most of these types of items. I also know someone with the Rivendare mount who got it first time. No effort there.

    If you tie these items to the character leve, item level etc to ensure these reflect skill, I am better with this approach. However, I don't think you can truly maintain the difficulty intent over time.

    But their should be a difference in the rewards for those vs the ones who go after the harder quests and raids.
    Just my opinion on this...there is a difference. The item level differences, the skins differences and the stats differences so you can do you job better are all the tangible reward needed. You still know what you accomplished and I see no need to flaunt that. Blizz is doing enough to encourage new raiders without gear appearance (and the frequent egos that go with it) being the driving factor.

  7. #27
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    To the above, I understand what you're saying and just saying what has made me left the game. I understand why the game has gone the way it has and even if they did let's say lose all the hardcore players, the majority is what they are focused on and will survive on. So I do get their direction over pass few years... but it isn't one for me personally.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifuedition View Post
    Sorry, but the Alysrazor mount and Stonecore mount I saw go to a d-bag we were carrying through the content because he won the rolls the only times we saw the drop. That is true for most of these types of items. I also know someone with the Rivendare mount who got it first time. No effort there.
    Bear in mind that for every 1% drop mount that both happens to drop AND happens to be won by a douche, there will be many more that are either won by an upstanding citizen who's done the dungeon ample times, and for each one of these, I'm pretty sure there will be far more going to the people willing to farm stonecore 5 times per hour, over and over, working hard to get that drake to drop on their hunter alt.

    Rare items are rare, regardless of if the person who won it didn't have to run the instance the mathematical maximum to reach 99% drop chance, it's still one of a very few on the server, otherwise it wouldn't be a 1% drop chance. There's prestige in rarity as well as hard work - I'm sure people will debate it's value, but it's there.

    I've farmed Phospherus stone drakes that had me sat around in the dead of night for days on end with dubious amounts of sleep, I've had ICC meta-drakes farmed with blood, sweat and tears, Rivendares deathcharger that dropped after a buff from 0.02% to 1% drop rate after months of farming, realm first time-lost protodrakes that I stumbled upon while still wearing TBC gear after a brief period of farming, a swift horde wolf and both ZG mount that were all claimed right before they were made no longer obtainable and a ravenlord mount that dropped the first time my DK set foot in Sethekk Halls, despite farming it hundreds of times on other characters. They've all got prestige associated with them, varying depending on who you ask, despite having wildly different degrees of difficulty to earn.

    I really can't think of ANY prestigious mounts that you simply buy though. The vendor mammoth usually got comments relating to it being a waste of gold, even when wotlk was still in full swing. I can't help but feel the same will be true of anything found on the BMAH, frequency and prices v gold inflation will play a big part in it, but I doubt there will be (m)any people who would pick the bought version as being as / more prestigious as the drop.

  9. #29
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    Prestige is buyable. Vial of the Sands (drake that turns you into a flying mount) costs about 30k gold in vendor mats alone if i recall. And that's not to mention the other mats that need to be farmed or bought for it. So if you see one on the AH for less than 35k gold, somebody is cutting a very slim profit margin. Now,this mount is nowhere near as rare as raid drop mounts, but still only a handful of people are willing to pay for one. Making it a somewhat prestigious item.

    But, yes, BMAH is a very random thing for blizzard to come out with, but if they do it correctly it shouldn't have that great of an impact on the economy or the rarity of those 1% drop rate raid mounts. But who knows, this is blizzard we're talking about, their track record for doing basic calculations when it comes to drop-rates isn't that good............
    "You get a *legendary*, and you get a *legendary*, and you get a *legendary*....." ~ Blizzard playing Oprah in 4.2

  10. #30
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    @Maziel

    I understand where you are coming from and, at the core, you have a valid opinion and can somewhat agree about the class mounts, but the few sentences are why people toss elitist in a derogatory fashion. If you had simply ended your statements in a civil manner, I doubt you'd get much hate, but when you toss out CasualCraft and demean current content, you just seem like an angry old man on his porch call all the young people pansies because back in my day... Civility and a lack of condescension would probably help a lot.

  11. #31
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    @Kagitaar

    I didn't mean 'CasualCraft' to be demeaning. There needed to be more casual elements added to the game (which have been) as that is the majority. Glad you understood what I meant though.

    I myself towards the end of my seven years was becoming a little more casual with the game, but I would go out and farm those solo achievements which were harder to get, then all of a sudden, removed from game just because they were no longer obtainable. That kind of thing I felt was a slap in the face to those players who did achieve and obtain them whilst they were available (not speaking of mounts).

    Anyhoo, meant no disrespect to the casual player by the term.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregasaurous View Post
    Prestige is buyable. Vial of the Sands (drake that turns you into a flying mount) costs about 30k gold in vendor mats alone if i recall. And that's not to mention the other mats that need to be farmed or bought for it. So if you see one on the AH for less than 35k gold, somebody is cutting a very slim profit margin. Now,this mount is nowhere near as rare as raid drop mounts, but still only a handful of people are willing to pay for one. Making it a somewhat prestigious item.
    I'd argue you might have a point at the start of cata when literally 3 people sadistic enough to grind a bugged archaeology proffesion were able to craft it and gold hadn't inflated so much, I see plenty of them around outside the orgrimar AH these days, and I'm on a small realm with a 3-1 alliance-horde ratio. It's items like those that have a rapid rate of "prestige decay", time-lost protodrake is similar, I managed to almost accidentally get the realm first right at the start of the expansion after deciding to camp it shortly after dinging 80 while guildies caught up, people were still claiming "realm firsts" months later. These days it's not so special, but back then it caused more ooos and aahhhs than any other mount I've owned.

    Legendaries I think you're spot on though, Dragonwrath is what turned me over to Lores way of thinking. If they're going to be designed like that they aren't rewarding - I loathed working on mine, I loathed it when I finished it.

  13. #33
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    The prestige for the vial of the sands was pretty minimal to begin with, but now its less because of the exact problem the BMAH is going to have. On my realm/faction its going for less than the vendor mats pretty consistently and if you take the time to tradechat it you can get one for about 20k. Nobody actually buys the sands of time to make it (which is normally 21.6k worth of cost with the guild perk discount). Those get bought from the goldsellers who have duplicated them and are selling them for as little as 400 gold apiece. This also ruins the 'gold sink' aspect of these types of items as the gold is never removed from the economy since it just goes to the goldseller instead of to the vendor.

    The very valid complaint anyone can make about the BMAH is that 'you can just go buy the gold from a goldseller' is going to persist until/unless Blizzard actually tries to stop it. The economy is already being completely warped by this (queen's garnets at 1/2 the price of lava corals) but that really only directly affects the people who play the AH. Its going to be far worse if there is substantial reason for people to use the BMAH and the goldsellers are really motivated to take over.

  14. #34
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    To be fair, duping is a straight up hack/exploit that is very illegal and results in a far higher increase in items availible than the BMAH does.

    Honestly, this is probably to combat that some,

    "well... I could go spend RL money to pay a gold farmer for this mount that he illegally duped and I could get my account banned for... or... I could just camp the BMAH and try to get it a legitimate way"
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  15. #35
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    I don't see how BMAH could be relevant for the current goldsink 'prestige mounts'. It could be made relevant for the TCG mounts but from what I can tell those aren't being duplicated now anyway (and I can't figure out why this is, but maybe Blizzard does a better job of tracking those than the other targets of duplication?). For the chopper/vial though they aren't going to be made unavailable (or in the case of the TCG mounts effectively unavailable since nobody wants to buy the TCG packs) so the really important property of the BMAH (market-driven pricing) would never apply to an item whose price is largely fixed. The majority of the price of the goldsink mounts is for now and really for any forseeable future going to be based largely on the cost of the vendor mats so there would never be an interesting market for the chopper/vial on the BMAH. The BMAH provides an interesting differentiation for things like ashes (do I play the market to get the gold to compete against people for it or do I go farm Ashes for a year and hope I get some luck). For goldsink mounts they are always going to be available within some range of price and any BMAH versions would be constrained within that same range.

    For a real tinfoil hat theory for Legendary think about this part of the BMAH too - imagine they make the rate at which the rare items released constant among the servers. If I'm sitting on Ilidan-Horde with 75k other level 85 toons who are almost certainly more hardcore than the average WoW player what is the cost of a rare mount going to be? What is it going to be on bumpkin_server_01 with 7k toons that are probably less likely to be as hardcore? If I see some stupid rare mount go up on Ilidan and get snagged at goldcap immediately how strong is my motivation to go buy it for 20k on the bumpkin server where the level of competition is dramatically lower by quite literally orders of magnitude? Just by putting a seemingly innocuous feature (constant spawn rate of rare items) Blizzard can use the AH to motivate people to give them $50 of transfer fees.

  16. #36
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    Have they said the BMAH is going to be server specific? I see no reason why it should be.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lrot View Post
    Agreed, but if the effort is minimal, and these days with TK and Ony it is, what makes those mounts prestigious?
    It could be argued that it takes just as much, or even more effort to reach gold cap.
    Is that achievement any less prestigious?

    I feel somewhat similar to the way you do, I just want people to really think about what they consider prestigious, and why.
    I really don't think the amount of effort that needs to be spent to farm a rare drop from an old instance can be considered "minimal." Maybe if you get really lucky. I farmed Garr for 2 1/2 years before I saw a binding drop.
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  18. #38
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    @Maziel

    I know you didn't but using words like CasualCraft are going to bring in that tone. I did the achievements you mentioned as well and was somewhat disappointed when not all of them became FoS like the unarmed skill did. Keymaster was super easy when you had played the game forever though, so I can't count that as being an accomplishment; hey look, all the keys I got from playing the game got me 10 points, that's nice.

    @Agg

    The BMAH would have to be server specific to function. I can already see issues with how much is going to be bid on things and if you had all servers competing for one item every two days, they'd gold cap at all times.

  19. #39
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    A) you don't need a big server to gold cap, though the AH margins are often bigger.B) I might agree as long as there's no "buy now" option and it's just pure bid until auction expires. Otherwise you'd have to have prices adjusted for the economies of all the servers.

    Though now that I think about it... there's a gold cap of how much you can transfer isn't there?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  20. #40
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    Yeah, gold cap for transfer is like 5,000 gold I believe and you need to be level 51 I think. The cap scales up based on you level up to level 51 (maybe it's 50). I transferred a horde pally at level 42 or so and was only able to move like 2k or 4k gold or something.

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