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Thread: PST - Episode 78

  1. #1

    PST - Episode 78



    This week:
    0:19 - How would skillshots work in PvE?
    3:21 - How can Blizzard make heroic dungeons fun again?
    8:39 - What if bosses couldn't be killed in LFR until your server had killed them on normal?
    12:40 - Would class quests work if the rewards were purely cosmetic?
    16:43 - When is a good time to start raiding in MoP?
    20:14 - Is the Pandaren racial overpowered?
    24:12 - What if heroic raids scaled in difficulty according to your gear?
    29:27 - Is Blizzard making changes just for the sake of making changes?
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  2. #2
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    what if the pandaren racial gave an extra secondary stat instead of doubling the effect, like agility stam and mastery?

  3. #3
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    Here's your math - MOP JC gems (the JC only ones) give 320 core stat, so the racial is just shy of one of those.

    It feels far too strong, playing forsaken that offer zero pve benefit feels bad enough without making even stronger racials. I thought the zero dps increase ones might see some love after their resistance related racials would need changing, but no luck. You still feel like you clicked the wrong button when making your character years ago.

    Scaling dungeons I would actually like, not as the standard option. Spine without gear improvements and farm bosses slowing you down getting to it? No thanks. But an option for Challenge Mode raids? That would be cool, give them a meta and a fancy mount and you'd kill a lot of the complaints about how easy the ulduar drakes are etc, and how they have no prestige anymore.

    As for warlocks and changes for the sake of change - demonology and destruction definitely needed it, demo worked - but was clunky as hell, destro has always felt like a poor mans mage. Affliction felt great - GC said it was one of the more "finished" feeling specs in the game. It's getting far more changes in MOP than I feel it needs, for the first time in 7 years I'm worried I might not enjoy the way it plays. The whole class could do with a little streamlining simply because it had a lot going on in wotlk, new spells in cata heaped more on top of that while removing most of the benefit, but affliction feels like it's being changed for no good reason.

    Also, Jaina drops the shield.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 05-12-2012 at 01:22 AM.

  4. #4
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    Remember, the Pandaren racial doubles the whole food buff so it's conceivable that in it's current state it would not only be top for dps and heals, but would far surpass any tank racial.

  5. #5
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    Speaking of Class specific quests, that is 1 of the reasons I love playing FFXIV, as each class opens up a new class specific storyline quest when you reach certain levels and they will keep making new ones. Atm you get these quests at lvl 18-25-36 and they are pretty cool.

    And when they implemented Jobs to each Class, there was an awesome storyline to go along with it, and made you pick up Job specific gear along the way even: Artifact Gear, and in patch 1.22b or 1.23, we will get Artifact weapons to get. And since we can play every class/jobs on 1 single character as long as you have spent time leveling everything up, that means theres 8 new storylines with maybe more boss fights to do which are fun.

    Getting Jobs for classes all had way different stories which was cool and also end boss fights was all different. And it sent you all over Eorzea to get them done, even into dungeons with a party.

    And the questchain in WOW for the warlock steed is no more, at least I did not find it when I leveled a orc warlock when you could buy the steed off a vendor/npc.

    So yeah, WOW skipping out on class specific stuff is a real letdown imo and they should really invest more time into bringing those back as I loved doing the warlock steed and paladin steed chains in classic

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  7. #7
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    LFR
    Normal
    Heroic
    Double Heroic
    Super Heroic Guilds
    Whats next Lore, Ultra Heroic? Thanks for taking time to answer my question, I was only asking because a friend of mine has been clearing 25HMs for a while and isnt finding it challenging (or fun) anymore, which to me seems a shame and coupled with the fact that, on my server, 6/8 (10 man) heroic gets pugged every week which implies to me that (nerfed) heroic is just a tag and no longer prestigeous...

    Is mid to second half progression of an instance on heroic just expected by the majority these days?

    Just wanted to say quickly on gating LFR that if the people left a particular server because they couldn't access LFR due to normal not being cleared, well, would that be a loss to that server, not in terms of raiders surely?

    The problem with heroic dungeons getting stale is related to there only being 3 that people want to do in order to gear themselves for LFR. What if every tier the ilvl in dungeons accross the board was raised to meet the new tier in relative terms? I do think however that there should be no option to only choose to queue for 3 dungeons as part of your random daily or whatever. Dungeon farming has always been a stepping stone to raiding tho, hasn't it?

    I got my Charger through that quest chain and I also got my Verigans Fist. Its a real shame there are no class specific things anymore, especially due to the rather weak excuse of having too little time to impliment 11 extra quest chains on top of the 000's more they will in each new expansion.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sharku; 05-12-2012 at 08:25 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorfurd View Post
    Is mid to second half progression of an instance on heroic just expected by the majority these days?
    Given the number of bosses they are putting in instances, would anything else make sense? Do you really think the majority of people seeing only a handful of encounters over the course of a 6-8 month release is a good idea? Should my guild have been staring at the same 5 bosses for the past 6 months, as would be necessary for the opposite to be true? Sharding 90% of the gear we get and seeing a new mob die every 6-8 weeks isn't going to motivate people to raid I think. Blizzard is struggling to find a way to make raiding 'catch on' which it never really has before except for a relatively small portion of the population.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawnos View Post
    Blizzard is struggling to find a way to make raiding 'catch on' which it never really has before except for a relatively small portion of the population.
    That was what LFR was for i thought? Tons of people are doing it so I would say it has achieved success in that way at least.

    But what I meant was, Does the majority of the raiding playerbase now expect to kill HMs? Is this right, that they should? After all, the majority of people taking part in raiding are doing LFR, the next smallest denominator does normal and then the minority clears heroic. Is that just how i think it should be or how it actually is?

    Is expectation vs. reward balanced anymore when pugs are killing 75% of an instance on heroic?

    Obviously, raiding guilds and regular pugs want to get through content and with enough work they will but they will be a minority wont they?

    Im not arguing for anything like I said a mate of mine is bored with unchallenging content and that was my idea about it.

    His guild is switching the debuff off this reset.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorfurd View Post
    That was what LFR was for i thought? Tons of people are doing it so I would say it has achieved success in that way at least.

    But what I meant was, Does the majority of the raiding playerbase now expect to kill HMs? Is this right, that they should? After all, the majority of people taking part in raiding are doing LFR, the next smallest denominator does normal and then the minority clears heroic. Is that just how i think it should be or how it actually is?

    Is expectation vs. reward balanced anymore when pugs are killing 75% of an instance on heroic?

    Obviously, raiding guilds and regular pugs want to get through content and with enough work they will but they will be a minority wont they?

    Im not arguing for anything like I said a mate of mine is bored with unchallenging content and that was my idea about it.

    His guild is switching the debuff off this reset.
    I don't think LFR is anything like raiding - it serves a purpose as an addition to the heroic grind for reintegrating back into raiding (which I think is vital as my guess is that for practical purposes nobody plays WoW continuously anymore) but I can't see the concept that it is someone's "end game" when success is essentially guaranteed after the first week or so.

    I definitely think it reasonable for at least some heroics to be a target for the majority of the raiding playerbase - how would it make sense otherwise? You'll never design content thats truly targeted at everyone but that doesn't mean you can't avoid the irrational like designing encounters 99% of the playerbase will never see. Heroics are and always have been just additional encounters whether people wanted to admit it or not, and classifying literally half of your content as targeted at only tiny portion of the population really doesn't make sense.

    Even on a highly progressed realm pugs in general are not doing 6/8H or anything close to it. I can't say that I've even heard of an actual PUG on my realm (i.e. 10 people who have never talked to each other before and never will again after) doing more than a couple of heroics. I have seen guilds filling in a couple of slots going 5 or 6 of 8, but I can't see calling that a 'pug'. There are still quite a lot of reasonable pugs and guilds not clearing 8/8 and its still not unusual to see a pug stuck on Zonozz. To me this is a much more reasonable spread than in the past where it was a very small number of people actually raiding and spread across a continuum of the content. Now that spread still exists but the number of people involved is much larger and the only real detriment is that a larger number (but still trivial compared to the overall number) of raiders are not challenged enough to last the entire expansion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawnos View Post
    I don't think LFR is anything like raiding - it serves a purpose as an addition to the heroic grind for reintegrating back into raiding (which I think is vital as my guess is that for practical purposes nobody plays WoW continuously anymore) but I can't see the concept that it is someone's "end game" when success is essentially guaranteed after the first week or so.
    For all but a tiny minority of raiders it is the end game. Success is not guaranteed because the rewards are random and the rewards are the end objective for most people. After all once a normal mode guild has all the bosses "on farm" success is also guaranteed and they run purely to farm random rewards too - with many having absolutely no intention of "progressing" into HM.

    The "end game" for the majority comes down to a concious or even sub conscious decision as to where the price of something (time, commiting to schedules etc) is in equalibrium with their perceived value of the rewards. The end game is simply the highest level of content they are prepared to run.

    For the majority the rewards in Normal/HC (whether that be gear or the achievements) simply are not worth the price that one must pay in their personal life to obtain them.

    In that respect and given the overwhelming numbers involved, 5 man HC's and RF are every bit as much a legitimate end game as normal or HC raiding. Same applies in PVP with many people aspiring for nothing more than a set of honor point gear even though the rewards are guaranteed by AFK'ing in random BG's.

    You are assuming based on your own tastes that organised raiding is the overall objective for most people. It is not and has never been so. It has always been a very tiny niche activity.

    I do agree that on Warcraft forums the definition of "pug" is laughable. Organised guilds asking for one healer in /2 who "must have the achievement and vent" suddenly become "pugs clear 8/8HC on my realm".

    In answer to this question: "Does the majority of the raiding playerbase now expect to kill HMs?" - absolutely NOT. Normal mode players are not demanding or requesting any such thing.

    I believe nerfs to HM's is purely a business decision by Blizzard to maintain subscription levels. HM guilds eventually clear everything and quit until the next expansion. Blizzard accept those subscription losses as they don't consider it worth making another RS to save them. The normal mode guilds will also clear their content and quit as most of their raiders are in normal mode guilds because they don't care to tolerate frustrating progression on HM. However by nerfing the HM down to the level that Normal used to be they do provide a very tasty carrot (HM Gear) for those players to keep going.

    I think too many people on forums see HM nerfs and Normal Mode guilds flooding in and start inventing a ficticious back story of the Normal Mode players demanding those nerfs because they had an interest in running HM.

    Rather the reverse was true, they had no interest in running HM and it is Blizzard taking measures to try and generate the interest.

    On the subject of RF gating, I am still confused and somewhat amused that a single digit percentage of subscribers are discussing how they can restrict access to content for the rest of the population - as if they have any right to do so. Perhaps the rest of the population should be offered a vote each week as to when the Heroic modes should be opened up? Perhaps the mount collectors, festival achievement hunters, pet fighters and RF players will decide you shouldn't be allowed access to that content/gear until 3 months into a tier?

  12. #12
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    On my server, PuGs that want to do heroic modes are generally going for Morchok, yor'sahj and ultraxion. The only groups going for more are generally guild raids looking to fill the last spot.

  13. #13
    A big problem with tieing LFR to things happening on your server is that LFR is completely cross server. As much as it makes people think "their server sucks" like Lore said but it also complicates the queing system since some servers could only go to point A, another server point B, and then finally point C. So something that is completely cross server tied down with server specific ropes just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If it were all single server absolutely perfect sense but it isn't and won't ever be.

    Not to mention that all the effort that Blizzard would put into making these changes would only be seen or effective in the first 2-3 weeks of raiding at a maxium since even the worse of the worse servers usually have a normal mode kill by then -- and then all the changes you made to the system sit idel doing absolutely nothing to only be worked once again at the next patch for again 2-3 weeks.

    Just seems like a lot of work and effort satisfy people that really do have the option to "not que" from complaining about queing in a special olympics kind of way. People just need to get a grip and realize if you burn out and flip out on your guild because you run content to much then run it less.. on your own accord.. or whatever the posion maybe. Get a grip and control your exposure yourself and not expect blizzard to do it for you. If you don't want to see Deathwing flop on easy before normal then stop watering up about the gear and claiming its your effort getting in the way of your need to nestalga things that are still current.

  14. #14
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    As far as heroics go, I have to say that I really like The Hour Of Twilight heroics. They are everything I want 5 man instances to be. They are Short, filled with lore, and End time is an Instance that I have always wanted to see. (Random Boss Encounters) I have always thought that 5 man instances should be short and quick to run so that you do not tire of them quickly. Instances that should never be replecated again, as far as length, is Grim Batol and ZA or ZG. I hated those instances. There is no reason a five man instance should ever be that long.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorfurd View Post
    But what I meant was, Does the majority of the raiding playerbase now expect to kill HMs? Is this right, that they should?
    Pretty sure heroics were introduced so that "normal" mode could be made more accessible without leaving the raiding crowd with no challenging content. If heroics are going to be made stupidly accessible then we need double heroics.

    I just wish they'd re-introduce challenging 5mans. I think we certainly need "quick" 5mans for LFG to work, but why not have those as LFG quality and have an additional tier of TBC style heroics? Challenge modes I'll no doubt enjoy, but a speed run with transmog gear isn't the same as a hard challenge, reliant on CC and coordination with a tangible ilevel upgrade over "normal" heroics item reward at the end.

    I miss spending ages working through H-Shadowlabs, it's startling that people find things like Grim Batol, ZG and ZA (Which had a god damn speed run) as "long".
    Last edited by Nagassh; 05-13-2012 at 11:55 PM.

  16. #16
    Burning Crusade up until the end of ulduar was the best raiding experience for the people who had the time and skill to do the content. Raiding is now made to keep everyone content instead of making one particular group of players extremely happy.

    When you go to BBQs and the wow topic comes up, no one ever talks about how good the raiding was in CATA because the raiding part of the game has lost respect.

    LFR comes with good and bad, for the majority of the playerbase it's a win, however you will never get that epic feeling of progressing through content again.

    Most raiders, including casuals who only play 8 - 12 hours a week will clear the content within a month in LFR if they open the raids completely for MoP.

  17. #17
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    I miss spending ages working through H-Shadowlabs, it's startling that people find things like Grim Batol, ZG and ZA (Which had a god damn speed run) as "long".
    I guess they got too accustomed to running through Nexus heroic or utgarde keep heroic in under 7 minutes :/

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    I believe nerfs to HM's is purely a business decision by Blizzard to maintain subscription levels. HM guilds eventually clear everything and quit until the next expansion. Blizzard accept those subscription losses as they don't consider it worth making another RS to save them. The normal mode guilds will also clear their content and quit as most of their raiders are in normal mode guilds because they don't care to tolerate frustrating progression on HM. However by nerfing the HM down to the level that Normal used to be they do provide a very tasty carrot (HM Gear) for those players to keep going.

    I think too many people on forums see HM nerfs and Normal Mode guilds flooding in and start inventing a ficticious back story of the Normal Mode players demanding those nerfs because they had an interest in running HM.

    Rather the reverse was true, they had no interest in running HM and it is Blizzard taking measures to try and generate the interest.
    This........
    I think you have a compelling argument. They knew they weren't going to be able to hold the attention of the HM guilds and also weren't about to release RS v2 while working on MoP. So, how else to keep people interested?

    I doubt there is "conspiracy" amongst most sane people that Normal Mode players were demanding nerfs to HM so they could run it. Though, when you have prominent people who push that theory enough, people might start to buy into the theory as "fact". I do kind of agree with the idea that Blizzard may have pushed it as they did to try and hold a larger player population interested in the game. That, to me, seems entirely possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    On the subject of RF gating, I am still confused and somewhat amused that a single digit percentage of subscribers are discussing how they can restrict access to content for the rest of the population - as if they have any right to do so. Perhaps the rest of the population should be offered a vote each week as to when the Heroic modes should be opened up? Perhaps the mount collectors, festival achievement hunters, pet fighters and RF players will decide you shouldn't be allowed access to that content/gear until 3 months into a tier?

    Funny how that works, isn't it?
    No one tanks in a void.........

  19. #19
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    MoP food looks like it only gives 1 stat, unlike current food where it is stat + stam. Not as strong as it sounds.

  20. #20
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    Two words :
    Benediction & Rhok'delar

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