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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Skillshots in World of Warcraft

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Skillshots in World of Warcraft

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  2. #2
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    I like the idea of skill shots in WoW, but right now if they added too many or they had too much of an impact on your dps/dmg then a LOT of people will be turned off. That's not to say that they can't be added but they would have to be added slowly and have minimal to medium amount of impact on your dps. A destro lock wouldn't want their incinerate as a skill shot but might be able to deal with chaos bolt being a skill shot.

  3. #3
    I'm not a big fan of skill shots... simply because I play from Australia and skill shots are really affected by latency - my ping on a good day is 250ms. Now you learn to make do (it's called predictive mashing of buttons... e.g. you spam your buttons when you think the player will be in range of your pounce and you'll usually get it off) but introducing them will create a greater gap between the lag and the lag-nots!

    Taking GW2 as an example - I played the beta weekend and melee was largely unplayable because who you were trying to hit was not there by the time you went to hit them (others without my latency were having problems with melee too) - but I found Elementalist to have similar problems. Ranger on the other hand (Long bow at least) - had more targeted attacks and that is who I ended up playing the most. Also in GW2 there is the whole dodge thing... which is just known to me as 'random chance to avoid damage button' - I was reading on a call for Oceanic realms forum post that the dodge mechanic is also affecting PvE too - basically one of the quests requires you to dodge to survive and basically it was undoable without learning the pattern and predictively pressing the button.

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    You mentioned "I play x because I'm good at it", despite it not mathing out as a good class / spec to play. I can't help but feel that would never be the case, it would be "I don't play x because I'm bad at it". Mathers generally operate at theoretical maximum (within reason).

    I've seen the gap between good warlocks and bad ones when it was a big dps influence - I can understand why blizzard are stepping away from skillshots for the same reason as they didn't want to have monks with no auto attack. They've generally moved away from complexity = output, and complexity generally boils down to skill.

    I'd personally love to see a move back to skill based play resulting in better performance and more mechanics (like skill shots) to facilitate this, especially with the glyph system allowing people to "opt out" for a simpler, though slightly weaker alternative. Blizzard seem to be giving mixed signals on what direction they're going to take though.

  5. #5
    Skill shots are an amazing idea but my fear is player rejection. Not to mention lag because even when I am playing with someone right next to me you experience situations where I tap space bar and 1-2 seconds my toon jumps on there screen and I am already running off. Of course it isn't always that way. In fact its rare. But it happens so think about patch week. Lag generally sucks then, so for that week are skill shots toast? As long as they and the general public have the tech to make it feel smooth in the warcraft engine and it doesn't become play to win with who has an amazing connection.

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    I would like to see skill shots as a "Make the difference in Heroic" type thing. You can raid in standard and kill the bosses just running rotations, but to do a boss in Heroic, you have to be in the upper 50% with skill shots.......... You have the players that can get it done on the baseline grind, but the players that can throw in skill shots when the rotation has space for them are just that much better. I wouldn't want to see skill shots as too much of a requirement to play though, no mobs that you have to make skill shots to kill, no skill shots in duel either. When you go in instances or arena, yes skill shots should be active and that allows enough randomness to make spec perhaps a little less meaningful and the player more important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by worgick View Post
    I would like to see skill shots as a "Make the difference in Heroic" type thing. You can raid in standard and kill the bosses just running rotations, but to do a boss in Heroic, you have to be in the upper 50% with skill shots.
    No, just no, let me explain. Every single boss or add in a boss fight we've had in this game so far will do one of the following things:

    a) Remain stationary at all times (is there skill in aiming an ability into something that doesn't move?)
    b) Is moved by the tank in a very specific way (In this case if you are a total idiot or if your tank starts jerking around the place you won't hit it but it still doesn't require any skill)
    c) It moves in a scripted pattern that never changes (meaning that there will be some guy on the internet making a video of where exactly to aim to always hit your skillshot)

    So no, skillshots are something totally useless in PvE and if you have to use them, it will be as skillful as targeting an AoE ability on the ground. In order for a skillshot to be interesting, it has to require skill both ways, like Lore said. If your opponent is incapable of dodging, there is no point to it.

    That being said, I'm really looking forward to skillshots in PvP, although I have to wonder how players with bad connections will cope.

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    I have to agree that skillshots wouldn't really be skillshots in PvE.

    Personally I believe that glyphs would be the best way to change skills to make them skillshots. The example Lore gives about the paladin gap closer I think would be something cool if they had a glyph to change judgement to a skill shot that would launch the hammer (or sword/axe with minor glyph) in the direction that the paladin selects and then pull you to the target if it hits them on top of the other things judgement does.

    Of course they could always add a couple talents that are skill shots, but then those talents would generally be completely ignored in PvE, which is not what they're going for unless it's a whole tier of skill shot talents like the hunters had. This is why I believe glyphs would be the best idea for it if they went that direction.
    "Kyle, this is the way the world works. If you want to find quality friends, you have to wade through all the dicks first." -Cartman

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    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post
    I'm not a big fan of skill shots... simply because I play from Australia and skill shots are really affected by latency - my ping on a good day is 250ms. Now you learn to make do (it's called predictive mashing of buttons... e.g. you spam your buttons when you think the player will be in range of your pounce and you'll usually get it off) but introducing them will create a greater gap between the lag and the lag-nots!
    I can certainly understand the issue from a standpoint of latency.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post
    Taking GW2 as an example - I played the beta weekend and melee was largely unplayable because who you were trying to hit was not there by the time you went to hit them (others without my latency were having problems with melee too) - but I found Elementalist to have similar problems. Ranger on the other hand (Long bow at least) - had more targeted attacks and that is who I ended up playing the most. Also in GW2 there is the whole dodge thing... which is just known to me as 'random chance to avoid damage button' - I was reading on a call for Oceanic realms forum post that the dodge mechanic is also affecting PvE too - basically one of the quests requires you to dodge to survive and basically it was undoable without learning the pattern and predictively pressing the button.
    This is where I start getting a headache. For starters.... if you're having latency issues in GW2 with your 250ms ping, guess what.... you'll be greeted with problems in D3 also. Then there's this whole "predictive mashing of buttons" thing that you talk about. You're still subject to that in WoW if you play melee. Someone moves out of range.... guess what.... your weapon/attack will not hit because they're no longer in range. Latency will get you there just as easily. It will always be more of an issue in PvP type play where the opponents can/will do more unpredictable behaviors..... vice... just standing there and mindlessly attacking and standing still so you can mash them (think 90% of WoW mobs).

    Then there's this issue of "random chance to avoid damage button". Which I find really interesting as in WoW, dodge is.... an RNG determined opportunity to avoid damage.... which is a "random chance to avoid damage". In GW2.... this chance to avoid damage is in the players hands. You push button..... something happens. Yes. It will be subject to latency... just as defensive cooldowns are in WoW (shield block.... icebound fortitude.... etc). Oh. Or in WoW.... moving away from an opponent (in a slow manner).

    Lol.... and I enjoyed this last portion....

    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post
    basically one of the quests requires you to dodge to survive and basically it was undoable without learning the pattern and predictively pressing the button
    Kind of like.... how, doing certain bosses in WoW are undoable if you..... don't learn the patterns and predictively respond?
    Say like.... Ragnaros..... Shannox.... Alysrazor.... Baleroc.... (the list is probably pretty much 90% of all bosses).

    All of that said....

    I DO get your concerns with a more "action-oriented" style of gameplay. Connection/lag/latency..... all of these things will make that style of gameplay more difficult for people who have inferior/problematic connections. I get it.... you don't like GW2 so far. You're welcome to your opinion. My point is that, all of these things...... they are neither purely "good" or "bad". They are just variations on gameplay. Some things people will like better than others. Players will gravitate to the things that they enjoy and part of what makes it enjoyable is how well it works for them.

    This discussion of "skillshots" added to WoW, to me, is a knee-jerk reaction out of concern in regards to two other games coming out on the market that feature more-active combat systems. An irrational "OMG WE GOTTA HAVE IT TOO" kind of response. My question is ..... WHY?

    Here's a better idea..... make the combat system that you have developed over the past 7-8 years work better. Stick with it, refine it, improve it. You gathered 10 mil subscribers with it. There are people who still enjoy this. It IS a system that is less-susceptible to issues with latency. This system HAS advantages. Capitalize on them instead of trying to jump on the latest trend. Clean up what you've built. Do intelligent things like..... oh, say.... fix the freakin mudflation problem that you've created that makes such a system more difficult to keep up with and balance. Fix the current problems instead of adding more crap that will create more problems in that system. That is part of what has been so damn frustrating for me with WoW is..... Blizzard seems to keep changing things "willy-nilly" with no real long-term plan. Just look at the talent system from TBC to Wrath to Cata and now MoP. It makes me want to say....

    "Blizzard...... wtf do you want WoW to be when it grows up?" (which was about 2 xpacs ago)

    Figure out something and f**king stick with it.

    That's all I'm going to say. WoW isn't terminally "broken". It has some issues, undeniably. I'm just kind of getting tired of the game not keeping an identity. I think that is one of the root causes of the complaints I've heard about MoP.... that once again, we're re-inventing the wheel. MoP isn't an expansion of WoW..... it's just another WoW-clone, that's doing a few different things and claiming it's "innovation".
    No one tanks in a void.........

  10. #10
    I'm not against the idea of skillshots as a concept, but it's also something that doesn't necessarily belong in every game. And a game like WoW is a game that I'm not sure how much they would really belong. What is it that defines a skillshot? As noted it's primarily the fact that you have to manually aim and your intended target has to try to manually dodge, but the game already has ingrained in it mechanics for accuracy and evasion. Granted they are both passive mechanics and you generally will cap them to guarantee hits and in pvp non-tanks generally don't really have much form of evasion, but the mechanics are still there and the concept of skillshots conflict with them.

    Would a skillshot ability still be subject to the miss chance mechanic requiring you to be both hit capped and aim properly, because that wouldn't really make sense (conceptually your hit chance is supposed to represent how good your character's aim is). Or since you have to manually setup and aim the skillshot is it unaffected by your hit rating, but then what does that do to the value of hit rating and expertise? And likewise for the evasive stats for the person on the receiving end. Does their dodge chance have any impact on the skill shot? If it does then that'd be depressing for the attacker who lined up their shot and the other guy just stood there but still dodged it purely by luck, but if it doesn't then it makes your dodge or other evasive/defensive stats less appealing. Or what about abilities that help you avoid being hit such as deterence? If a hunter is using deterence, which makes all attacks miss them, can they still get hit by skillshots? On the one hand you can argue that if they weren't able to get out of the way they should be hit, but on the other hand isn't the point of deterence that the hunter can't be hit by anything even if it's coming straight at him?

    Both systems for "accuracy" (passive stats or active skill shots) have their merits, and their faults, but putting them both in the same room is always going to result in someone getting the short end of the stick.

    I'm not saying that skillshots can't be put in WoW at all, but the more impactful that they are the more likely the interaction between skillshots and passive stats is going to cause problems for somebody.

  11. #11
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    skillshot wouldnt change much for a rogue, would it?
    i mean we already have to be in melee range, facing our target.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    This is where I start getting a headache. For starters.... if you're having latency issues in GW2 with your 250ms ping, guess what.... you'll be greeted with problems in D3 also. Then there's this whole "predictive mashing of buttons" thing that you talk about. You're still subject to that in WoW if you play melee. Someone moves out of range.... guess what.... your weapon/attack will not hit because they're no longer in range. Latency will get you there just as easily. It will always be more of an issue in PvP type play where the opponents can/will do more unpredictable behaviors..... vice... just standing there and mindlessly attacking and standing still so you can mash them (think 90% of WoW mobs).

    GW2 is actually worse because their servers are located in Texas whereas WoW's (west coast) servers are located basically on the international line in. D3 also uses some predictive technology stuff going on to improve that latency concerns - but I haven't played that to see (I'll see Tuesday).

    And yes - I'm definitely subject to latency in WoW already... I've largely given up playing my warrior in PvP for that reason - they are the most 'in-melee range' restricted of the melee classes I've played. And if I get a rogue with a remote bit of skill, i.e. they are actually trying to get behind me to backstab, then it is a big pain. But it is one reason why I do best in melee with a feral druid - dots and energy are two of the best ways of combating latency. You learn and adapt, but it doesn't mean I want to see more ways in which playing with latency is a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post


    Kind of like.... how, doing certain bosses in WoW are undoable if you..... don't learn the patterns and predictively respond?
    Say like.... Ragnaros..... Shannox.... Alysrazor.... Baleroc.... (the list is probably pretty much 90% of all bosses).

    Actually dodge is designed to be a reactive skill, the comparison is more to dodging a randomly used ability by a mob, not a scripted event. The example I gave was from a beginning quest, not from a raid boss. But it applies in combat generally - your survivability is based on the fact that you can dodge some of the attacks. It's more akin to being able to interrupt some abilities - but it suffers from the release version of Halfus where the interrupt window was too small for player with latency to be able to interrupt it without doing so before he event started casting (although his usage was scripted if I remember rightly - so you could do that if you were watching DBM - not a perfect analogy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    I DO get your concerns with a more "action-oriented" style of gameplay. Connection/lag/latency..... all of these things will make that style of gameplay more difficult for people who have inferior/problematic connections. I get it.... you don't like GW2 so far. You're welcome to your opinion. My point is that, all of these things...... they are neither purely "good" or "bad". They are just variations on gameplay. Some things people will like better than others. Players will gravitate to the things that they enjoy and part of what makes it enjoyable is how well it works for them.
    Actually I really enjoyed GW2. One weekend wasn't enough to adjust and adapt to the combat system however and learn to play it with latency (and I'm still hoping they'll put some more local servers here...) But it is a completely different game, and I don't think WoW really needs that system added into it. GW2 combat is all about movement and is a very reactive playstyle in general - even in PvE. WoW isn't setup like that.

    I would actually be ok with it being introduced as long as it isn't the main way of doing things - occasional abilities with the glyph removing the skill shot aspect being a good thing (although I think we need about 10 minor glyph spots). I think part of how this can work even with latency is to have a wider 'range' to the attacks - perhaps a 5 yard diameter to the line that is effected by the attacks. There is still an element of having to target, but it gives some leeway to client/server differences.

  13. #13
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    Been playing a dps monk premade on beta... There is an ability that launches a projectile in the direction your character is facing rather than at your target that applies a snare if it travels 10 yards before impact. There is a glyph that causes it to hit your target instead of blind-firing, but it removes the snare component.

    Obviously I would glyph this for 'pure dps' in Pve, but the potential use of it in Pvp unglyphed boggles the mind. It does cost 1 Chi to use, but the potential gap from a bad to mediocre to skilled monk using this ability would be astounding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post

    GW2 is actually worse because their servers are located in Texas whereas WoW's (west coast) servers are located basically on the international line in. D3 also uses some predictive technology stuff going on to improve that latency concerns - but I haven't played that to see (I'll see Tuesday).

    Same on D3, though from what I understand, the always-on connection + lots of live-action/snap reaction game play sounds like a potential headache.
    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post

    And yes - I'm definitely subject to latency in WoW already... I've largely given up playing my warrior in PvP for that reason - they are the most 'in-melee range' restricted of the melee classes I've played. And if I get a rogue with a remote bit of skill, i.e. they are actually trying to get behind me to backstab, then it is a big pain. But it is one reason why I do best in melee with a feral druid - dots and energy are two of the best ways of combating latency. You learn and adapt, but it doesn't mean I want to see more ways in which playing with latency is a disadvantage.

    Totally understand and agree. But comparatively, that IS one of the strong points about WoW currently, is that it is not subject to latency issues as GW2 might be. BUT.... this whole thing with skillshots could hurt it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post

    Actually dodge is designed to be a reactive skill, the comparison is more to dodging a randomly used ability by a mob, not a scripted event. The example I gave was from a beginning quest, not from a raid boss. But it applies in combat generally - your survivability is based on the fact that you can dodge some of the attacks. It's more akin to being able to interrupt some abilities - but it suffers from the release version of Halfus where the interrupt window was too small for player with latency to be able to interrupt it without doing so before he event started casting (although his usage was scripted if I remember rightly - so you could do that if you were watching DBM - not a perfect analogy).

    Yeah. Can't really argue your points here. Agree. Dodge in GW2 as it stands could be outright deadly. HOPEFULLY.... they'll adjust that. But we'll see.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post
    Actually I really enjoyed GW2. One weekend wasn't enough to adjust and adapt to the combat system however and learn to play it with latency (and I'm still hoping they'll put some more local servers here...) But it is a completely different game, and I don't think WoW really needs that system added into it. GW2 combat is all about movement and is a very reactive playstyle in general - even in PvE. WoW isn't setup like that.
    Again, I'd agree. I enjoyed the weekend beta but the game is still in need of work. Local servers.... maybe even using them as a hub that allows a lower latency connection to the "master" servers, would be great. Just a random thought. Anyway.... I really would hate to see WoW go this route for reasons I mentioned above. Primary of these is that WoW is just simply "not WoW" anymore, and from the way MoP is shaping up.... it's drifting further from its roots. Time will tell if it really works for the best, but ..... let me put it this way. Devs were so concerned about people reacting negatively to a stat squish..... yet... they're a-ok with doing this kind of major change? Again, it makes me wonder if they have a real direction in mind for WoW or are just..... winging it.

    Again.... to me, this just seems a bit like "OMG... OTHER GAMES ARE DOING STUFF.... WE NEED TO DO IT TOO". (Please note: I don't recall ANY discussion of this type of thing until suddenly after the GW2 beta weekend.... coincidence???) There are people who actually like WoW how it is, without those things. If you introduce this, do you want to risk alienating that player base? As Lore asks, is this something that is needed to keep WoW relevant? I'd argue no. WoW could stay VERY relevant by refining what they have used and making it work better. Taking the time to not slap some new mechanic together, but to really critically evaluate how things are interacting. Then there's the issue that I mentioned before that, when MoP hits, it's not even really going to be "WoW" anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameldar View Post
    I would actually be ok with it being introduced as long as it isn't the main way of doing things - occasional abilities with the glyph removing the skill shot aspect being a good thing (although I think we need about 10 minor glyph spots). I think part of how this can work even with latency is to have a wider 'range' to the attacks - perhaps a 5 yard diameter to the line that is effected by the attacks. There is still an element of having to target, but it gives some leeway to client/server differences.
    If they kept it to a few very basic abilities.... I think they could swing it. Example: hunters.... aimed shot. Perfect. But make that the ONLY ability like it, that way it CAN be balanced. Kittehs for example could use ferocious bite, maybe by using a sliding bar "charge up".... where if you tap it in the "red zone" it does more damage vice an orange zone. But like some other folk mentioned, there are all sorts of issues that surround this. How does it interact with Hit/Miss, dodge/parry effects.... the burst damage of this effect in PvP.... you'll have to be careful about how this interacts.

    Again, all of this makes me wonder where in the hell they're really trying to go with WoW, especially if they're seriously considering this.


    No one tanks in a void.........

  15. #15
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    By the way Lore.... that intro had me rolling laughing..... LMAO!!!! Most excellent!
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    Skills shots would be fine, But also remember that as far as i remember, skill shots in LoL show a targeting point or arrow, where your shot is going. Think of Ashe, her ultimate has a big extendable arrow where the shot is going, and its instant. As long as it its does those two things with skill shots in wow id be ok with it.

    I think people hear skill shots and might never had played LoL and do know know how they are really handled, there is targeting. its not a blind shot, unless your trying to kill a champ in another lane. And really skill shots should not to be hard to execute, with 50% slows and roots, as long as the travel time of the skill shot is not that slow then it would be fine.

    There are some issues i can see that Blizzard would have to solve before they adds a skill shot.

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    Not a fan of this idea at all at least for PVE. There is already too much buttonpushing for my taste in WoW and if anything I would prefer either simplification or (preferably) longer reaction times. The early MMORPGs were a combination of MUDs and FPS games but from what I've read it sounds like LOL is almost entirely a FPS. WoW has always been pretty far along the continuum toward being an FPS and I don't think it needs to go any further down that road. So many of the interesting strategic elements of early MMOs have been lost in WoW to facilitate a more pure competitive environment and adding even more twitch reflex gameplay is only going to move farther away from what I liked about the genre to begin with.

    Mathing out what is optimal in PVE is only possible in WoW because it has been developed with very static encounters that require static strategies (and to a lesser extent because easier character progression allows the use of alts for class-stacking). This is necessary for PVE to have the same kind of pure competition as the RTS games Blizzard makes. I can remember everquest encounters where my guild would use 14 clerics and 3 druids for healing and another guild would use 5 clerics and 2 druids. The strategies were radically different (50 minute whittle down the boss strategy versus 6 minute burn, kite, and pray strategy) and everyone had to adapt to what they had. You couldn't 'math out' the strategy to use because it would vary from encounter to encounter and it was too hard to gear up an alt to just stack the appropriate class. WoW lost a lot of that strategic depth in order to make progression competition more even.

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    It sounds awesome on paper - but I think the history of Blink and later Heroic Leap proves that in WoW the terrain very often influencing abilities like these. In a flat world these are much easier to implement.

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    Personally I'm quite happy with what blizzard is doing with skillshots, they're going steady wich never really hurts.

    A skillshot spell wich already exists in the game is fire(or frostfire) orb for mages! You cannot immagine how many times i regretted casting it in one direction just to see the mobs move away from it, and i also think it would be a shame to miss with it in a pvp situation since it has a slowing effect

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