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Thread: PST - Episode 77

  1. #1

    PST - Episode 77



    This week:
    0:28 - Would the Dragon Soul debuff be better if it was on a more fixed schedule?
    8:19 - Should Blizzard bring back old raids like Ulduar or BT?
    16:32 - How should they handle LFR gating in MoP?
    25:50 - What do professions need to feel fun again?
    31:27 - Why not just change the distance people need to spread out in 10man?
    39:43 - What major lore character would you like to see make a comeback?
    45:26 - Could purchasing consumables for Valor points help with the excess?
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  2. #2
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    As for returning to old raids:

    No.

    No no no no.

    You cannot go home again. Your nostalgia should remain just that, nostalgia. Please Blizzard, no more rehashing of old dungeons. Just make new stuff. It doesn't work out.

  3. #3
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    God if i had to kill ony again GOD!

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    Hmmm LFR gating...

    Reminds me a bit of when PVE players suffer with their spells being removed or nerfed because of balances required in PVP.

    The LFR players (the majority of raiders) might be pretty annoyed at having to wait for their content because of a niche group of players that feel compelled to enter content not intended for them in pursuit of progression races that those LFR players don't honestly care about.

    Especially so given that this particular niche of players (me included at the time) were pretty vocal in their opposition to gating when it was their content being held back (TOC/ICC)...

    I can see accusations of hypocracy and phrases such as "what is good for the goose..." being thrown around. For me it is better to look at why Hardcore players felt compelled to enter LFR rather than screwing LFR for everyone.

    I personally thought the gating for DS was just about right. The problem was that the loot system in LFR at the time encouraged guilds to farm it because they could trade tier items to the tanks. With that loop hole presumably closed in MOP I'd guess it won't be as big an issue.

    The other problems were OP tier bonuses that made LFR gear superior to HC raid gear from the previous tier. That was a huge problem and plain wrong IMO.

    So the solution is fix the loot system to prevent trading (done?) and ensure that set bonuses (plus weapon/trinket procs) are not quite so powerful as to surpass last weeks HC raid gear. If we are brutally honest though I don't think hardcore raiders want gating in LFR to prevent themselves burning out....

    I think the truth here is that hardcore players simply want a period of exclusivity in terms of access to the later bosses in a raid. They don't want the unwashed masses to kill the final boss before the hardcore players have killed it on Normal/HC. I do have some sympathy with that position as it does remove some of the mystique of these later bosses when the average Joe is facerolling them on day one.

    The problem is where do we draw the line? Do we open up the final bosses in LFR once Paragon get their world first HC kill on the last boss? Or do we wait for Months Behind to do it? For how long should Blizzard annoy the bulk of their paying customers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushy View Post
    God if i had to kill ony again GOD!
    The first 3 deaths were only a setback!!!
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    enchanting is in an excellent place with having a small extra bonus, in that it gets to DE gear instead of vendoring. Something similar could be possible for tailoring/blacksmithing/leatherworking... they could salvage old gear for materials. This would need to be balanced right or it would totally screw up the economy, but I could see that type of bonus working if the numbers were right.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    I can see accusations of hypocracy and phrases such as "what is good for the goose..." being thrown around. For me it is better to look at why Hardcore players felt compelled to enter LFR rather than screwing LFR for everyone.
    The big difference is that in LFR there is no natural gating because the content is tuned to be so easy that anyone who is able to queue for it can do it all. In normal/heroic raiding, skill and gear provide the gating that keeps most people from seeing the content immediately. The LFR only raider is not well served by being able to see all the content in the first two weeks of its release. I don't look at this from a heroic raider point of view, but rather from the point of view of what is good for Blizzard, and even if they don't recognize it, what is good for the player who only 'raids' with LFR. It is not good business for Blizzard to allow the content to be seen immediately, but LFR cannot be tuned in a way that natural progression occurs, so imposed gating is actually the only solution to lengthen the content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mwawka View Post
    The big difference is that in LFR there is no natural gating because the content is tuned to be so easy that anyone who is able to queue for it can do it all. In normal/heroic raiding, skill and gear provide the gating that keeps most people from seeing the content immediately. The LFR only raider is not well served by being able to see all the content in the first two weeks of its release. I don't look at this from a heroic raider point of view, but rather from the point of view of what is good for Blizzard, and even if they don't recognize it, what is good for the player who only 'raids' with LFR. It is not good business for Blizzard to allow the content to be seen immediately, but LFR cannot be tuned in a way that natural progression occurs, so imposed gating is actually the only solution to lengthen the content.
    You know what? I'm actually inclined to agree with you a little bit here. Being able to see ALL the new content in the first couple weeks really kills the lifecycle for a patch. Sure, you'll have raiders that will clear normal in 1-3 weeks of release. Such is life.

    I get what you're talking about. LFR is not tuned or set-up in a way to be a "true easymode". It really is pretty much a gagglef**k of people thrown together. It's not like Guild Average Joe can run a true newbie raid and progressively clear it. Honestly, there really are a significant number of players that are that "bad". Not to be mean, but there are players for who just want to play and not really dig too deep. I have some friends who are like that... they just play to play, really have no interest in learning rotations or how abilities work in conjunction with each other, or want to understand how all the stats work. I know.... this is right now making some people cringe and twitch and such at that thought but whatever.... those people are welcome to play WoW also. Too bad.

    Now, do they "belong" in raids? In my perspective, probably not. The sad truth is, Blizzard has given those players so little else of interest to do in WoW, that.... well frankly, raiding is all that's left that would be of any interest.

    I'd suggest that the LFR level raid could PROBABLY be PERFECT for those people, if they weren't lumped into a large 25 man random group. IF, there were the alternative to run a 10 man LFR difficulty raid, I know for a FACT some of those people would jump on it. As it stands though, LFR as it is presently, invites all kinds of douchebaggery into it.

    This goes back a bit to something I said yesterday, where Blizzard listens to "us", but then takes it and gives us something they "think" we want. It's kind of like this:

    Blizzard: "You guys want easy-mode raiding? Sure!.... here you go! LFR!!!!"

    Joe Not-a-raider: "Oh coo.... wtf is this? Why didn't you give me an easy-mode?"

    Blizzard: "We did! We put you in a group with 25 random people, and all the potential foolishness that can come with it!"

    Joe Not-a-raider: "But, why couldn't you have done this without the random thing, and let me run with my friends? 10 man would have been fine, just toned down. I'm not that good and I'll probably never be that good because I just want to play."

    This discussion though, starts bringing into question things like:
    "Should we really lower the bar some more?"
    "Should these people really be raiding?"
    "Why isn't Blizzard offering these people other content?"

    A lot of it stems from the simple fact that raiding IS the current end-game and there is a certain amount of play-improvement needed to jump from that lower state (non-raider) to the higher state (raider). There's really no great mechanism provided by Blizzard..... and the player community, as a whole, doesn't really seem to be elevating that "lower state" all that well. (Though, in all fairness.... 10's have increased the raider population by allowing smaller groups of people to get their feet in the door without having to assemble 25..... and at the same time, has widened the gap by eliminating those 'extra spots' that 25's would sometimes offer to the 'new guy' to let them chomp at the bit and learn by. It has lifted some, but left those who are 'left behind' in even worse shape).

    So, yes.... I would say the idea of making an 'LFR-difficulty" raid format as a true "easy mode" raid, would be beneficial. Simply make LFR an "option" that people can elect to use if they cannot assemble a raid group, or remove it entirely.

    I also say though that there has to be a swap out. An exchange of sorts. Blizzard would have to "man up" and make it clear that this is a "for fun" format and loot will be equivalent to what dungeons are offering. That it is intended for people to play end-game content casually, and to help players learn to function as a larger group. That if you want to raid normal, you WILL have to step up your game, and that this is kind of the last straw for "lowering the bar". Also.... that there needs to be a "give" of some sort to the upper levels of gaming. That heroic material will be made more robust as there is now this third tier of raid content.

    If they can't hack that, well.... guess it's time to find another game.





    No one tanks in a void.........

  9. #9
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    5% nerf increment overall is probably the best way to do it just because every guild struggles on different aspect of one particular fight. ON spine for example, it can be healing, it can be corruption kiting, it can be tendon dps, it can be the puddle aoe, it can be anything.

    Just like madness. Like you said in your example alone, you named 4-5 possible problems for guilds. By reducing overall, then, guilds can compensate where they need by adding an extra dps, an extra tank, an extra healer, etc and get teh job done.

    Specific nerfs imply that everyone in your raid doest pretty much its job at its best and that somehow blizz could analyse the datsa of every guild and know that a particular aspect of a fight is problematic. I dont think its conceivable.

  10. #10
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    Lore's comments about unlocking the LFR bosses later than the Normal mode bosses I don't hope is the path Blizzard is going to take. It does not seem like a good solution for those who want to see the new content when it is released, but who don't have the time or energy it takes to be a member of a raiding guild. I actually think this group is extremely big. It would not be fair to such a player to when joining the new unlocked LFR boss to get bullied around with L2P comments just because this player haven't spend time learning the boss in normal/heroic. In my eyes LFR should be a bridge between casual and raiders - releasing LFR content slower than Normal or Heroic content would make the distance bigger between the casuals and the raiders A step in the wrong direction in my eyes.

    Another thing. The reason Blizzard just apply a big overall nerf/buff to instances rather than making individual tweaks to the specific mechanics that are causing problems for players are in my eyes due to community feedback upon releasing patch notes. In the old days they did spent more time tweaking individual encounter mechanics than they do today. But that also meant that each patch note had many nerfs every single patch - and that tends to make a lot of people a lot more angry than just 1 small comment saying "this buff is now 10% instead of 5%".

  11. #11
    On the valor point suggestion, while I agree that allowing us to downgrade valor into justice would "solve" a lot of things with what raiders could do with their surplus points (trade items that you can buy with justice, heirlooms that you mentioned in a previous video, etc), I find it a little strange that you didn't mention that these are issues that won't really exist once MoP comes out due to the changes.

    It's a problem now because raiders get a surplus of valor points with nothing long-term to spend them on, and it's a problem that all of the "long-term" things you can buy are bought with points that you pretty much stop getting once you're raiding consistently. But in MoP things will be completely different. First is that valor points will have a more long-term use in the form of boosting your gear's ilevel (assuming they're still planning on that route), chances are that depending on the limitations on the mechanic that you'll still have a use to save up valor in order to boost any new gear that you get, you'll only have a surplus when you're in all BiS gear that cannot be boosted anymore. Second is that raiders will not be getting valor points, or at least won't be getting many compared to non-raiding activities.

    So in other words the issues won't even exist when MoP comes out. Sure they could implement a change now to help out between now and then (and admittedly adding an option on the vendors to buy justice points with valor points would be simple, as they already have the functionality to buy points with other points), but it would just be a bandaid on an issue that'll go away later.


    Another thing I wanted to point out is on the subject of precision nerfs vs blanket nerfs, is that one of the big problems you mentioned about the blanket nerfs would still happen with precision nerfs. That feeling of almost getting the fight just before they come in and nerf it would still happen regardless of whether they just nerfed the whole encounter or they just nerfed that one thing that was just barely wiping you. It wouldn't matter if they made everything easier or only removed that one barrier between you and victory, in either case it would feel like they were just handing you the kill just because you could "almost" do it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mwawka View Post
    The big difference is that in LFR there is no natural gating because the content is tuned to be so easy that anyone who is able to queue for it can do it all. In normal/heroic raiding, skill and gear provide the gating that keeps most people from seeing the content immediately. The LFR only raider is not well served by being able to see all the content in the first two weeks of its release. I don't look at this from a heroic raider point of view, but rather from the point of view of what is good for Blizzard, and even if they don't recognize it, what is good for the player who only 'raids' with LFR. It is not good business for Blizzard to allow the content to be seen immediately, but LFR cannot be tuned in a way that natural progression occurs, so imposed gating is actually the only solution to lengthen the content.
    The thing is when it comes to Normal mode it isn't just the Paragons that clear it in week one. Pretty much any guilds deserving of the title "hardcore" nail it too, especially so from the second tier onwards when they go in there wearing heroic raid gear from the previous tier. Remember on week one of Firelands all the QQ about that how easy it was.

    I don't see the distinction between pretty much all the hardcore guilds seeing all the bosses on day one in normal mode and average Joe seeing them in LFR. Yes the numbers are different but it is "goose and gander" again.

    Especially so when it tends to be the hardcore guilds that complain most about lack of content due to them burning through it too fast where as the more casual players have seemed happy to repeatedly run 5 mans HC's and latterly LFR on a multitude of alts for months on end. Remember the 5 mans in Wrath that these guys happily hammered to death for 2 years for example. You also have to avoid making the mistake of projecting your play habits onto them - e.g. they don't even necessarily run the content or VP cap each week as you do.

    Don't you find it curious that the players who most often complain about burning through it too fast are the ones requesting gating on behalf of another bunch of players who rarely if ever make such complaints...

    If we look at the motives for gating here I think based on what we can see in game at the moment there is absolutely no justification for doing it on the grounds that casual LFR players get bored and quit to soon. There is no evidence to suggest that is even an issue. I think in that respect you invented a problem to satisfy a solution rather than visa versa.

    The original DS gating was perfect as it allowed organised guilds to clear DS before Casual LFR players and I fully support that objective. The only legitimate issue with what happened was the shoddy, easily abused loot system and ridiculously over powered tier/trinket/weapons that forced HC raiders to spam it. First part has already been fixed, second part is extremely simple to fix. I hope Blizzard focus on that and don't get distracted by the red herring of gating.

  13. #13
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    The problem with crafting profession's is less finding the pattern and more how useless the crafted item is compared to heroic gear, and how expensive the materials are. The materials are a either expensive as all hell and / or raid drops, so seem geared towards hardcore raiders, but any raider can get better for free by simply doing what they enjoy, raiding.

    I think the last time I really wanted a crafted item was a belt in ulduar.

    They have some place in the first tier, where you're raiding in blues, but after that - the cost v benefit is rarely worth it to the "casual" audience, and hardcore raiders can do better. LFR has done nothing but confound this problem by making gear even easier to find.

    I'm also totally fine with Kael'thas coming back more times. Blizzards handling of him was hilarious to the point I don't even mind his lore going to pot if he gets to declare things are merely a setback. Perhaps that's more due to my waning interest in lore after their handling of lore characters in WOTLK.

    He has two verdant spheres left. That's two more setbacks!

    Also, converting VP to JP would fix so much. The one problem with VP buying JP items as opposed to converting, would be if you had a JP item costing 2k and wanted to spend x amount of JP and y amount of VP.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 05-04-2012 at 06:15 PM.

  14. #14
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    Just give crafting professions awesome transmog recepies they can farm with dailies and sell transmog gear.

  15. #15
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    8:19 - Should Blizzard bring back old raids like Ulduar or BT?

    They could make them a LFR with a level cap. Just wondering if DS will remain as a LFR in MoP.

  16. #16
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    On the topic of LFR gating, as a pre-requisite to joining it could make you do a short quest chain (20-30 minutes) that introduces the mechanics to the player (would be different for each role, dps/heal/tank and would only be doable as that role. You can repeat the quest chain for a different role at another time).

    In the case of DS (dps chain):
    Quest 1: run over to a blob that explodes and kills you if you are not close enough, and run away from stuff on floor.
    Quest 2: you have to steer a purple ball into an area by running into it
    Quest 3: 3 blobs spawn and you have to kill the one that the game tells you to otherwise you die and have to start again
    Quest 4: You have to dodge a moving wall, and stand between two totems to connect them
    Quest 5: You have to hit an ExtraActionButton1 to survive a massive AoE that would otherwise kill you
    Quest 6: You have to intercept an AoE attack by standing in it, while killing mobs that spawn
    Quest 7: You have to dps a mob down to 10%, and then let it gain 9 stacks of a buff before killing it, and then killing an add that spawns next to the first mob.
    Quest 8: You have to kill a large tentacle, use the green ExtraActionButton to avoid dying to a big AoE damage event and kill 5 tentacles within 20 seconds.

    Then no dps would be able to get out of not doing their job because "it is their first time", as they have had to complete the quest chain attunement. Each raid would have its own three attunement chains (20-30min duration) for each role, and you couldn't sign up without doing the role-specific chain.
    Last edited by Fetzie; 05-05-2012 at 02:01 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGgui View Post
    Specific nerfs imply that everyone in your raid doest pretty much its job at its best and that somehow blizz could analyse the datsa of every guild and know that a particular aspect of a fight is problematic. I dont think its conceivable.
    Incorrect sir. If you'll recall Lord Rhyolith in Firelands. A month or two into 4.2 they nerfed the knock-back that occurred whenever he stomped. They said it was causing guilds more trouble than they had intended from that mechanic and so they made the whole fight tons easier by changing one singular mechanic. My guild got a kill in on him the week before the nerf after a very long night of progression. The next week we one shot the fight like it had been on farm for a month. This is just the example that came to mind off the top of my head, there have been several others over the course of Cataclysm alone. Blizzard has plenty of ways of knowing what it is in a fight that is killing people. I can guarantee you their combat log is a lot more in depth than one you would be used to reading. They are always analyzing Data from new content to make sure things are working as they intended for them to work.

  18. #18
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    This is just the example that came to mind off the top of my head, there have been several others over the course of Cataclysm alone. Blizzard has plenty of ways of knowing what it is in a fight that is killing people. I can guarantee you their combat log is a lot more in depth than one you would be used to reading.
    I'll add a couple more:

    Maloriak Lightning Storm cast time up to 1 second, from 0.5 seconds. Was physically impossible for Oceanic raiders to interrupt in time due to latency.
    Alysrazor Tornadoes slowed down. High latency players couldn't dodge them reliably.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    Now, do they "belong" in raids? In my perspective, probably not. The sad truth is, Blizzard has given those players so little else of interest to do in WoW, that.... well frankly, raiding is all that's left that would be of any interest.
    In breaking news there is pet battles, reputation grind, challenge modes and scenarios in next expansion. I agree that there is nothing now and what you say is valid right now but Blizzard is doing something to change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    This goes back a bit to something I said yesterday, where Blizzard listens to "us", but then takes it and gives us something they "think" we want. It's kind of like this:

    Blizzard: "You guys want easy-mode raiding? Sure!.... here you go! LFR!!!!"

    Joe Not-a-raider: "Oh coo.... wtf is this? Why didn't you give me an easy-mode?"

    Blizzard: "We did! We put you in a group with 25 random people, and all the potential foolishness that can come with it!"

    Joe Not-a-raider: "But, why couldn't you have done this without the random thing, and let me run with my friends? 10 man would have been fine, just toned down. I'm not that good and I'll probably never be that good because I just want to play."
    But I'm sure you understand that LFR is done 25 man for technical reasons, the trinity itself makes harder to make it 10 man (as it is right now with a LFD tool).
    I really don't see that frustration for the people, what I see and Blizzard thinks too is that LFR is their biggest success in a long time except for the loot distribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    So, yes.... I would say the idea of making an 'LFR-difficulty" raid format as a true "easy mode" raid, would be beneficial. Simply make LFR an "option" that people can elect to use if they cannot assemble a raid group, or remove it entirely.
    If you think that removing LFR is an option we are playing a different game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    I also say though that there has to be a swap out. An exchange of sorts. Blizzard would have to "man up" and make it clear that this is a "for fun" format and loot will be equivalent to what dungeons are offering. That it is intended for people to play end-game content casually, and to help players learn to function as a larger group. That if you want to raid normal, you WILL have to step up your game, and that this is kind of the last straw for "lowering the bar". Also.... that there needs to be a "give" of some sort to the upper levels of gaming. That heroic material will be made more robust as there is now this third tier of raid content.

    If they can't hack that, well.... guess it's time to find another game.
    Now that is something I agree, at the end of the day when doing LFR you are not doing anything that could be regarded as "effort", many cataclysm dungeons were harder that LFR. But I think that the idea of LFR came as a solution not only of the lack of content but the "Raiding gear debate" that came from tiers 11 and 12 when people was asking, and was a lot of people in the official forums, for tier gear for them even if they don't raid. So I agree with you in the sense that LFR should not provide trinkets, weapons and tier bonus that make raiders farm it to death, but I also think that this decision could be a very unpopular one and I have this little fealing that they don't like unpopular decisions therefore they won't do it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregasaurous View Post
    Incorrect sir. If you'll recall Lord Rhyolith in Firelands.
    The fact that you have a example (or many) doesn't really proves anything. You just are saying that there are cases when making specific nerfs is possible and doable for blizzard, you can't prove that this applies to all the cases, because you don't have the data, sadly maybe.

    The changelog from a nerf would be:
    - Nerfed 5.1% of X Boss health because 21.7% of the players that didn't killed it in 4 weeks were this close to kill it with all players surviving to the end.
    - Nerfed 5.5% of X Boss damage because 33.1% of the players that didn't killed it in the previous 5 weeks had one player dead in the last phase of the boss and couldn't kill the boss before the enrage, even that they had 5% more dps than the median of the groups that killed it when they lose that player.
    - And many combinations of groups that are lacking a bit of both.

    vs 5% damage done and health of boss X.

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