The Weekly Marmot - The Casualization of Hardcore Raiding

[Aggathon]

I'll give an honest answer

Is it personal satisfaction? Yes
Is it bragging rights? Yes
Is it enhanced ability to recruit for your guild? Yes
Is it gear? No
Is it simply the freedom to consider yourself "hardcore"? I guess I don't really get what this is asking, but probably yes, but this is really just questions 1 and 2 worded differently.

Also "it" is pretty poorly defined. The questions are also rigged to begin with because they're limited in scope and don't tell the whole story, but those are the basic and honest answers to those questions.

[Lrot]

-To not be bored senseless with the content
-To raid in a setting that is specifically designed to be a challenge, not just a means to get "phat lootz" (which, is pointless unless you want to actually engage more challenging content mind you) .
-To have a competitive platform to engage said content.

Those are conditions, not rewards.

[Lrot]

Also "it" is pretty poorly defined.

Feel free to redefine the definite article "it".

[Aggathon]

You're the one asking the questions, until I know more specifically what you're asking for those are the best answers I can give.

Is "being able to kill a boss before it's nerfed" what "it" is? Is "taking the debuff off yourself" or... what, you're being vague, man.

[truculent]

Those are conditions, not rewards.

I'll give an honest answer


Also "it" is pretty poorly defined. The questions are also rigged to begin with because they're limited in scope and don't tell the whole story, but those are the basic and honest answers to those questions.

what agg said.

also...My "conditions" are what I "want".

[Lrot]

You're the one asking the questions, until I know more specifically what you're asking for those are the best answers I can give.

Is "being able to kill a boss before it's nerfed" what "it" is? Is "taking the debuff off yourself" or... what, you're being vague, man.

I am reminded of Bill Clinton asking his inquisitors to define the meaning of the word "it".

[Aggathon]

Bill was asking what the definition of "is" was.

[Lrot]

what agg said.

also...My "conditions" are what I "want".

So, if the conditions are in themselves the reward, you would feel rewarded simply by knowing that those conditions existed?
That is odd.

[Lrot]

Bill was asking what the definition of "is" was.

Right you are. I stand corrected.
The further I get into my 40s, the foggier my CNN memory becomes.

[Lrot]

So....what IS the definition of "it"?

[Aggathon]

They're your questions...

[Lrot]

And nobody cares to provide an answer.

Back to square one.

[Aggathon]

I'm so lost I have to call troll... I answered your questions (as vague as they are) and you refuse to redefine them so I can give you more accurate answers...

[Krenian]

This topic confuses and angers me.

Tread carefully.

[Lrot]

The questions are also rigged to begin with because they're limited in scope and don't tell the whole story, but those are the basic and honest answers to those questions.

In that case, how would you ask the questions, and having asked, how would you answer them yourself?

[Lrot]

I'm so lost I have to call troll... I answered your questions (as vague as they are) and you refuse to redefine them so I can give you more accurate answers...

To be clear, I am not trolling. I have been asked to define the definite article "it", which is nothing more than a semantic roadblock.

Who's being vague?

Vaguaries and semantics are the last refuge of those who don't want to respond, or incapable of responding.

[Zoltar]

This criteria sounds good at first, but I still have problems with it. What boss's progression kill rate do you use as your benchmark? No single boss is appropriate for a zone wide debuff. And I don't think a total boss kill rate is right either. I won't get deep into statistics, but you're smoothing over far too many boss-specific mechanics. For example, you may have a fight such as Heroic Spine or Heroic Gunship that is causing problems for progression. But if many more raids are succeeding at earlier fights, then the aggregate number of boss kills will be high enough to let those raiders keep "suffering" and "hitting the brick wall" which is precisely what these nerfs are supposed to alleviate.

Plus, as was pointed out in an earlier post, there are some fights that have mechanics that are not going to be made easier by the nerfs, they will still be pass/fail (or wipe/no wipe). So you will have overall diminishing returns on upping the magnitude of the debuff.

Will upping the debuff make it easier for raids to progress? Absolutely. But is there a good way to benchmark when and how much to debuff? I would argue no.

I think they still put in some targeted nerfs such as reducing the HP of the tendons on Spine, so it's not like they can't address the overall progression rate with blanket nerfs and specific brick walls with targeted nerfs as well. No, they won't ever be able to perfectly tune the fights to make everyone happy, but I do think the way they handled Dragon Soul and it's debuff did much more good than harm.

[Ion]

What is the real reward one gets from hardcore raiding?

Is it personal satisfaction?
Is it bragging rights?
Is it enhanced ability to recruit for your guild?
Is it gear?
Is it simply the freedom to consider yourself "hardcore"?

Basing my answers to those questions on the "it" laid out in the other quoted sentence above:

1) Yes, most definitely, first and foremost. THIS is the one that is impinged upon by blanket nerfs.

2) Sure...to an extent. I certainly am proud of the fact that I'm one of the best players on one of the best guilds on a very good server.

3) To the extent that this serves our ability to kill bosses, yes. And given the FACT that there will be turnover (it is a 100% inescapable fact of raiding at ANY level), then yes...being a well-progressed guild on a good server IS a reward in and of itself.

4) Sure...I like gear. I honestly think that anyone who doesn't say yes to this is lying to themselves. Gear is a tool that makes your job easier...and it's a nice, obvious, tangible reward for your efforts (unless of course your gear never drops (coughcoughprotchestcoughrhyolithcloakcough)). Is it the BEST reward? No...but it's certainly A reward. It makes progression on the next fight that much cleaner, or even POSSIBLE, at the very least.

5) No. I don't even understand what that means...hell, I DON'T call myself hardcore. I don't CONSIDER myself hardcore. I consider the top guild on my server hardcore...they spent a LOT of time in those dungeons, a lot more than we did, to get those kills before us. I don't consider that much of a skill either. I don't, honestly, think they're a more skillful guild than we are, but they're obviously more hardcore than us.

So there is no single reward one gets, in my opinion, from being a ... well like I said, I don't really think I'm HARDCORE, but I DO expect to be clearing hard modes...so I'd say I'm a hard MODE raider. Hardcore, to me, is a time investment metric. Hard mode is a skill metric. I'm not interested in spending more than 9 or 10 (MAYBE 12) hours a week on raiding...I AM interested in spending those hours on difficult, interesting, challenging content. I am not interested in those facts colliding and making me chose between them...which is what blanket nerfs do.

[leethaxor]

This topic confuses and angers me.

Tread carefully.

EVERY WEEK! EVERY FREAKIN WEEK. Why don't you follow the discussion lol or don't since then I'd be banned 200 posts ago.

I think the real question is, what do those of you who are, or aspire to be hardcore raiders want from the hardcore raiding experience?

The point of hardcore raiding is challenge with some learning mixed in. Raiders want to learn new mechanics and adjust to changing circumstances and work with the confides of the encounter to beat it. The learning is important because encounters like Heroic Spine of Deathwing (prenerf 10/25) required split second timing, and if OUT OF YOUR WHOLE RAID you missed about 3 gcd's somebody died and you wiped. There was no learning it was just waiting for RNG to line up.

What is the real reward one gets from hardcore raiding?

Nothing tangible that is. The reward of raiding is like the reward of winning a bear league baseball game. Its about trying to personally do your best. Culturally is something most american's don't understand. Its really more an asian attitude. The idea that you are doing what you are doing the best you can, not matter how small the task is and enjoying satisfaction from that.

Is it personal satisfaction?

Answered

Is it bragging rights?

yes and no. At most levels it is, at other's its about just clearing the content. Most truely hardcore raiders don't like WoW as a game, we like raiding. We rush content to finish before everyone else on purpose.

Is it enhanced ability to recruit for your guild?

Most definitely, your rank is one of the largest perceptions of your guilds 'skill'.

Is it gear?

The obsession of gear is caused by players with low self esteem, one of the first marks of a hardcore raider (or a least a real one) is they don't care about gear. They consider a tool. The idea of loot drama is simply people showing they care more about bettering their characters 'themselves' then their social obligations then team work. This is not the 'hard core' attitude. The hardcore attitude is learning to play 3 different characters and not caring about their gear just to help your guild.

[rigo8582]

I think as the playerbase that started playing gets older. Things become more "casual" in general. In 2005 when I started playing I was 23 years old with barely anymore money and alot of time. Fast foward 7 years with a family I know have more money and less time.

A few years ago spending 4 hours a nite 2-3 times a week for raiding was something I could and wanted to do. Now I have no desire to do that. I for one am glad for LFD and LFR. I like playing on my own time and terms. For me its all entertainment. I personally have no problem doing easy mode on things as long as its fun for me. For me I could care less about the actual items I just like to experience the content.

With that being said I like the idea of different modes where players can set what ceiling they want. THeres pleny of people that will be happy to just do LFR and not go beyond that.

I just think as people get older and as time moves on their level commitment will diminish. Part of it could be age and age of the game. I used to love playing RPGs that would take me 60+ hours to complete. Now I'm happy with a game it takes me less then 20 hours to complete.