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Thread: PST- Episode 76

  1. #1

    PST- Episode 76



    This week:
    0:20 - How can I keep my spirits up after losing a large chunk of our roster?
    5:07 - Couldn't Holy Pallies just use caster mail?
    9:08 - Can Blizzard implement heirlooms better in MoP?
    14:41 - Will the more complex rotations in MoP result in better DPS?
    21:25 - Why are some fights harder to farm than others?
    26:35 - Since there's so much coming in MoP release, could patch 5.1 be smaller?
    29:01 - Why do you think T11 was the best raid tier in Cataclysm?
    32:49 - Does Blizzard design bosses harder than they'd be able to kill themselves?
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  2. #2
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    Hmm several things to go through....

    I'm loving the idea of glyphs being used to change up a rotation to make it easier. One thing that popped in my head was they could use the system to help keep all specs competitive in raiding content. Since one of the ideas was you could play your favorite spec in PvE content, you could use glyphs to improve play, or even 'live test' it, and see if doing a change in the glyph setup would make this spec better and more balanced with the other specs in pve raiding. If it turned out that yes, this change is good for this spec while raiding, they could hotfix it to make it baseline, and take the test glyph out. Hmm...live glyph testing...the more I think about it the more I like it.

    One thing on the more complex rotations, I've seen a couple instances in beta right now where rotations are just flat out missing abilities that we've had in cataclysm. Some might think they are making them easier, but remember that we are getting a lot of new abilities on use from the new talent system. I don't mind losing a single rotation button that I have to execute perfectly in order to ease up adding up to 6 more abilities from talents. We're going to see more situational reactive moves so our rotation will be freed up more and we will be spending more time learning when during a fight we can execute the rotation to its maximum, and when we need to react with the other moves to reach spots to then again maximize rotations. Also don't be surprised to see players having to learn how to keep themselves alive more on their end than before. We will all be getting more survival tools and can't rely on healers to just heal us through something when we could have simply not pushed a button in our required perfect order and just pressed our 'you live' button.

    I haven't cared too much for farming arbitrary points for gear on a main toon to give heirloom gear to a new toon. With the way the transmog system is working, wonderfully, I would rather have a different system for increasing experience gained while leveling.

    1 - make the later levels of guild bonuses just increase leveling experience. (kind of lame, but something)
    2 - In WotLK you could buy the cold weather flying book and send it to your other toon. Why not let us buy a specific armor type enchantment that gives us 10% increase experience on that item. Make it where you have to reach exalted with each of the new factions to be able to buy the buff for each item slot. Say, 5 factions, bonus enchantments for helm, shoulders, chest, gloves, and legs. 5 in all, 1 at each faction at exalted. It would be something to do with each faction, and there are already good ways to enhance faction rep, tabards, without going way out of my way to farm points to buy single loot items.

    I don't think there is a good way to deal with the extra armor in regards to the holy paladin. Maybe since we are seeing hopeful improvements to loot with the LFR, we can all get loot, system and the valor point upgrade old gear to current relevancy system, we will see something to help with gear waste, but just don't know what.

    I'm looking forward to having so many bosses in MoP. Mostly for me it is just for something to do. I'm one of those that can enjoy an interesting hard mode boss, but that has to have interesting changes. I've never been a fan of having every boss have a hard mode. That's not fresh and creative content. If you give me 14 bosses per raid tier, well holy cow, that's a lot to do! I'd be completely ok if say 4 of those were optional harder bosses to do for fun. Kind of like how bosses were skippable like Ignis, Razorscale, and wasn't Iron Council skippable? I know they werent hard mode bosses, but point is have more but skippable hard mode level bosses. But don't make it where I have to kill all of the other 10 bosses on normal and then a lacklusterly created hard mode for each of those 10 before I can fight the other 4. 10 normal main story bosses, 4 hard as hell bosses on the side for fun. Give us 14 bosses per tier, by the end of the expansion we would have 30 normal story bosses and 12 side hard mode bosses. No overlap so everything is more unique and fresh.

    I feel for the player with the first question. It can be draining on you when you lose a team. I've spent a lot of time as a raid leader, an officer, and a recruiter. I've also taken breaks from the game for months at a time. Remember one thing, everyone is replaceable. That's a good thing. If someone leaves, there's always the next person you recruit that could turn out to be better than the one who left. I've seen that so many times. Back in the days of Ulduar I actually got excited every night someone left because we always downed the next progression boss that night. Haha. It was crazy. Don't think the guild is entirely on your shoulders. Spread out the responsibilities, encourage others to work with you, give players a chance to prove they can do a task they have shown interest in. Its highly unlikely youll be able to keep your roster static for the 18 month expansion season. Players will come and go, just stay focused on your goal for the night....raiding. PuG a slot if you have to for the night. Raiding and wiping is better than sitting around or calling the night.
    Last edited by Oint; 04-27-2012 at 01:22 PM.

  3. #3
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    Rhyolith

  4. #4
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    Pretty good tip about how to retain your sanity when your guild is close to disbanding. What personally has kept me going in times when my guild was still unstable and new (and on the verge of disband more than twice) was the thought that if this fails, it's MY failure and ME giving up. And I do believe that. Of course there are always factors outside your reach that will complicate things, but there is also ALWAYS a solution to be found. In my opinion, no guild master is proven to be a good one, unless he's been faced with a situation like this before.

  5. #5
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    In regards to my comment on hypocrisy, and apologies in advance if my view comes across as either bias or lacking knowledge of other classes, I've stuck to playing the one class since classic, I don't pretend to have indepth knowledge of others, though I have played them at a more casual level.

    WOTLK saw warlocks prettymuch topping meters if played perfectly, they had a more complex rotation (Priority list, but I'll call it rotation out of convenience) and were rewarded for it, especially in the golden age of naxx, where immolation was a prime example of "Add this to your rotation if you want to excel, but if juggling that additional dot makes you mess up, you'll lose more than you gain".
    Come cata, the rotation arguably became even more complex as new abilities were added to it, but you weren't necessarily top dog, even if you pulled it off well, there were classes with simpler rotations that pulled higher numbers. And here's where I try not to sound like an angry, bias warlock -changing that is not necessarily a bad thing, there SHOULD be complex and simple rotations with varying outputs to fit different players, I wouldn't be satisfied playing an arcane mage even if it's numbers were top - I want something more engaging. It just means you play the "complex" rotation because you enjoy it, not because of the output.

    However, these glyphs seem to be taking a step back in the direction of complexity = higher output, not something I thought blizzard would ever do, I thought the "simple rotation = less output" had went the way of the hybrid tax, dead as a dodo.

    (Cata) Warlock v Fire mage / Shadow priest - Mage and Priest will arguably do more damage than a warlock, despite having a less complex rotation.

    (MOP) Easy modo glyph v None-easy modo glyph - Easy modo will do less damage than no-glyph and has a less complex rotation.

    As I said at the start - not particularly pro at other classes, examples based on
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap1yuWLXTPrcdHBrV0p3aXZJdUExT2RoQWxKWmNvU FE#gid=0
    http://cynwise.files.wordpress.com/2...7-48-20-pm.png

    It may not be a 1-1 comparison, I've already mulled over how the glyph is an inter-spec situation whereas raw rotation complexity is between different classes etc, but it still seems a tad hypocritical to say "Not socketing this glyph will make things harder, but gives you more damage. This spec / class plays harder, but doesn't do more damage", right after an expansion that took away that bonus damage from the complex spec / class.

    Don't get me wrong, I can see both sides of the argument, people won't react well to "what, my (spec) can't do as much damage as his?" if they went fully back to how it was in WOTLK, but on the other hand, it was like that in WOTLK, I was on the receiving end of it this expansion and being told your spec suddenly doesn't do as much damage but you still have to do the work wasn't particularly fun either, although I still enjoy playing it. I must sound terribly bitter, but I'm fine with things as they are now, it just seems like an odd thing to take a step away from something and then add glyphs that are doing a very similar thing.

    I've rambled on far too much, and you thought the question was long. Least you didn't get this wall of text.

  6. #6
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    Hi, person from the 'farm content' question here. I guess I didn't entirely mean to imply that Spine was 'one of those' fights either, at this point it's usually just a warmup wipe or two to stupid mistakes (also I am the blood tank, so that fight is going to feel like blind panic to me until the day we leave it behind for Pandaria). Just the fact that it's taking us a little longer than usual to get it smooth and consistent made me think of the Naxx anecdote, and of other fights where things were different. If you measure by, say, total wipes in the weeks after the first kill, heroic Zon'ozz (goddamn ball bouncing weird directions) is higher for us than heroic Lich King (five months of blood, sweat, and roster crunch, and we 3-shot it the week after, IIRC). Aside from really RNG examples like you mention, I'm guessing it's sort of unique to each raid, and the particular intersection of the fight's main challenges and which of your players they apply to.

  7. #7
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    To start...When I started watching the video on Tankspot, up popped an ad for a gold seller. Really Tankspot? Do you actually support gold selling on your site by carrying their ads?


    As far as heirloom gear goes...

    My level 1 Guild Bank character holds all my heirloom gear that I have purchased. I did grind dungeons for nearly 6 months to buy every piece of Heirloom gear I could find. I have the full set, cloth, leather, mail and plate plus weapons, cloaks and trinkets.

    One thing that I did notice when looking at the plate gear in my banks' bags is that hovering over them they say they are Mail but when I equip that gear on a pally the hover over says it is Plate. I do not find this unusual in my way of thinking.

    Do you think they will convert old valor points to justice points. I think they did that before.

    Great show, as usual.

  8. #8
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    The ads on youtube are usually chosen by Google based on your cookies. So if you visited the battlenet website, mmo champion or any other website related to online gaming, you would see those ads.

    One thing that I did notice when looking at the plate gear in my banks' bags is that hovering over them they say they are Mail but when I equip that gear on a pally the hover over says it is Plate. I do not find this unusual in my way of thinking.
    Warriors and Paladins have Mail account bound items in the beginning, when they reach level 40 the items change to Plate.

  9. #9
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    The problem with making a greater reward for a more complex rotation is that it locks you into playing the classes with the more difficult rotations if you want to maximize your capabilities rather than the old MMO maxim of 'play what you like' that far predates WoW. Saying 'well just give every class/spec an option to make the rotation more complex' is nice and all but pretty obviously not practical - if they could have perfectly balanced complexity and output they would have done so already and its unlikely they will suddenly gain new design capabilities. Then too you have the problem of fight mechanics - there are fights or at least portions of fights where playing virtually any melee spec is more difficult than even the most difficult of ranged ones because of the interplay of positioning and mechanics. Then there are fights where melee sit there and push buttons like a ranged but with a far simpler rotation. Which of the two wildly varying situations do you balance around?

    I do think there is room for improvement without seeking perfect balance - why do feral cats and sub rogues have both the most difficult positioning and one of the most complex (and certainly of the melee the most complex) rotations? Its really just bad design. They aren't going to be perfect in their ability to balance and/or add little ways to add a bit of extra dps but they can at least be somewhat more rational.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Deandia View Post
    To start...When I started watching the video on Tankspot, up popped an ad for a gold seller. Really Tankspot? Do you actually support gold selling on your site by carrying their ads?
    Unfortunately, we have very little control over this. We try to block as many gold sellers as we can, but the gold selling sites pop up faster than we can blacklist them.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawnos View Post
    The problem with making a greater reward for a more complex rotation is that it locks you into playing the classes with the more difficult rotations if you want to maximize your capabilities rather than the old MMO maxim of 'play what you like' that far predates WoW.
    The thing is, this system WAS in place during WOTLK (and possible before it, I can't remember much of TBC beyond the terrible SB spam spec, but I remember doing good numbers back then too - although with the SB spec I suppose that goes against my argument, considering it's the simplest play ever concocted - but I'm thinking of affliction in SSC etc), warlocks were rewarded for their higher complexity with meter topping if they did it right. It's not a "should blizzard add this", it was in the game and removed for reasons I could understand and appreciate, the glyphs just look like a step back in that direction, one that I neither expected nor do I really expect to be a full step back to how things used to be. People didn't stop playing the other classes, warlocks have never been in the majority by far, they're a minority.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap1yuWLXTPrcdGhfMVhoOUdTUTFEU1FRcThUUmJWR nc#gid=0

    While it may not be 100% accurate, it's pretty close. Warlocks were in the minority in WOTLK, right next to rogues. That numbers continued to drop in Cata. People shifting to one class really hasn't ever been an issue.

    If anything, rewarding complexity pre-dates "bring the player, not the class" mentality, it's not some "new idea" I've concocted, just something that Cataclysm removed.

  12. #12
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    To the first question:

    best of luck to ya. If it is any consolation, my raid group lost 6 raiders in a single week (10 man) and we managed to scrape together a raid the next week, and get back to full strength. It took us a month to get back to where we had been, but we traded some BAD APPLES for some SWEET ones. I will say though, as a raid leader it got hard when that happens. I agree with what lore said about limiting despair. Above all remember that every good raid leader goes through this, and don't take it personally - its just the nature of the beast. My 10man raid has gone through 43 raiders in cata, and honestly my guild is one of the better off ones on my server. I think that of the % of the population that does "progression raiding", not a very high percentage does it because they like progression raiding, but most either just like loot, like achievements, or like the social aspect of working with others. No matter how good your philosophy and your application process gets, you'll always have spikes of massive turnover.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawnos View Post
    I do think there is room for improvement without seeking perfect balance - why do feral cats and sub rogues have both the most difficult positioning and one of the most complex (and certainly of the melee the most complex) rotations? Its really just bad design. They aren't going to be perfect in their ability to balance and/or add little ways to add a bit of extra dps but they can at least be somewhat more rational.
    I can't speak for sub rogues, cause I have not rolled one competitively, and their rotation looks really unfun, but ferals have their moments. The positioning requirement is annoying as hell, and ferals are all but impossible to play well on fights with lots of target switching/short living targets, but I enjoy feral DPS a lot. It is an absurdly complex rotation, but its also one where you are given the resource (time) to meet the rotation. It obviously changes based on gearing (mostly haste levels), but ferals will max DPS while pressing a button ~40% of the times that they "could" be. Having raided on a frost DK and been at the mercy of random rime/runic empowerment procs for big parts of my rotation but still basically having been forced to be a button-masher, having raided as boomkin and faced the 10,000 retarded different judgments necessary every single global to maximize dps with that spec, I prefer feral to all the above.

    My point is that the hard specs have something going for them too (well, feral does... you couldn't pay me to go sub), and those playstyles can be a LOT of fun. There may be a core issue with ferals (they seem impossible to balance in both pvp and PVE without having damage either way too high or way too low), but the rotation gives it a very specific and unique feel, one that is quite pleasant for some (like me).

  14. #14
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    I personally would like an alternative to heirlooms. Get rid of them entirely.

    I recently made two instant level 80's (Shaman and Pala) by using a scroll on two old expired WoW accounts I held. I rapidly levelled them to 85 in DPS spec before switching to heal specs once I dinged 85 and had no trouble immediately launching into heroics etc despite having never played those classes/specs before.

    Given that I had no problems doing that with a class I had never played before, I see no issue with Blizzard selling a scroll that would boost our alts (that we have already played extensively at current level cap) to 90 - I mean get real, levelling teaches you nothing, if it did there wouldn't be so many bad players around. Note that as with SoR you would still have to level professions yourself and build faction rep although I would like it if you would be given friendly status with factions so you could buy a tabard and get rep via dungeons and not have to do the mind numbingly dull quests.

    I really do not enjoy the levelling process. For me it is a pointless repetitive and completely skill-less time sink. I sit there dribbling into my keyboard bashing two buttons as I faceroll the same old "kill 10 of" or "collect 10 of" quests. It is bad enough the first time through and I don't think I can face doing it half a dozen times in MOP.

    SoR proves that such a system could be put into place.

    Once we have levelled one toon to cap we should be able to fast track our alts for say the same price as a character name change. For me this is a better solution than heirlooms which merely damage the levelling process for those that enjoy levelling e.g. imbalance in low level PVP, trivialising lower level dungeons for those players in the group that didn't want to "cheese" them by overgearing etc. Heirlooms are surely for those that hate levelling anyway given that they destroy the experience as you out-level and have to leave zones before you finish quest chains and conclude the stories.

    From a business perspective I feel this would rake in billions of dollars for Blizzard - I am stunned that they haven't done it already. I believe most players when realistically measuring how much their time is worth (say in comparison to their salary per hour) would consider such a service astounding value for money and would gladly pay up. Those that have lots of spare time on their hands to spend levelling lots of toons and very little money (jobless types I guess) could level up the old way as they did before heirlooms were introduced without impacting on the game experience of others. Those that enjoy levelling wouldn't use heirlooms anyway for the reason I eluded to above.

    Given that we have run away inflation there is the option of making such a service purchasable with gold (say 100k per toon) to act as a nice gold sink as opposed to expensive vanity mounts which for many players are not remotely interesting - the guys with the most gold tend to be the ones that least want such mounts.

    I am sure a lot of people on this forum are players that predominantly play for the end game with levelling merely acting as an annoying and irrelevant time barrier so I wonder how they would feel about it.

  15. #15
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    The point About Spirirt plate for DKs wasn't so much about Unholy being ranged as Unholy sclaing off Int plate. Kinda the reverse of where prot palidins were in wrath where STR became spellpower, so for Unholy INT would become AP, and to make things fair Spirit becomes Hit/expertise, no actually changes with how the class fuctions they'd still press the same buttons, you'd still need to be in melee range to use Scourge strike, they could still use str rings and cloaks and trinkets and things, they just can use spirit plate.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    The point About Spirirt plate for DKs wasn't so much about Unholy being ranged as Unholy sclaing off Int plate. Kinda the reverse of where prot palidins were in wrath where STR became spellpower, so for Unholy INT would become AP, and to make things fair Spirit becomes Hit/expertise, no actually changes with how the class fuctions they'd still press the same buttons, you'd still need to be in melee range to use Scourge strike, they could still use str rings and cloaks and trinkets and things, they just can use spirit plate.
    Big design problem with this would be: DK have 1 DPS Tier set. Easy fix, but you know how blizz is about doing things. It took the 3 expansions to FINALLY separate Cat from Bear.

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    I didn't say Str wouldn't work for them, just that Int would.

  18. #18
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    I know, i'm just saying that there's a lot more too it than saying: "Unholy Uses Int now. Their abilities scale off of it. Hpally gear=Justified"

  19. #19
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    Its just numbers Greg, shouldn't be too scary. Hell back in TBC you used to Have prot pallies using int stuff

  20. #20
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    This might be a stupid idea for resolving the spirit plate issue but you guys don't know my real name so flame away....

    What about if the bosses, instead of dropping actual finished bits of armour, dropped shards or parts of armour that are basically like mats. Say, for example, you're a holy paladin and you want your shiny new Breastplate of Mesmeric Awesomeness. You go to the mystical Plate Armourer associated with the current raid instance (he should have a cooler title than that) and ask him about this legendary piece of armour you've read about. He tells you that you need the Flame Retardant links of Oregon (as dropped by boss A), possibly some other thing, and the Scale of the Roboturtle (boss B) (again, names could use some work). The demands aren't as exacting as assembling a legendary but mean that drops retain some use because they could be part of pieces of armour used by several classes and specs. In themselves, they don't have to have stats attached to them. Wouldn't that work? Huh?

    In fact (I'm on a roll now), how about if the plans associated with these pieces of purple armour could be retrieved through the archaeology skill? Like the aforementioned breastplate was an ancient elven artifact so you need to scour Night Elf digsites. So you find the armour plans and seek out the appropriate craftsman in Stormwind (obviously. Why would you bother playing Horde?) who tells you what you need and where you could find it. That would make all that flying around looking for digsites cool and even worthwhile.

    Hell, you could even make it so you need an Inscriber to write some mystical nonsense on the inside of the mats, solving yet another problem area.

    Just my two penny worth, as we say here amidst the dark satanic mills of northern England.

    Be kind with your comments.

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