Either the biggest con-game of all history in Wow, or...

[tjayrocket]

Okay, so I have been reading on the forums (I have a bad habit of it and should really stop.) about a guild that apparently was robbed of their server first achievement by a guild that supposedly 'stole' their lockout. And my question is, is this even possible?

And for the record, this is not my guild, my server and I am in no way associated with this group. Just reading about it though made my blood kinda run a bit colder than usual.

But, checking the rankings I see that the #1 guild in that server has a Heroic Madness kill, but no kill for Spine.... How?!

(Ranking - http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/coilfang)

[Leucifer]

If I had to hazard a guess?

They jumped in on Madness with someone else's lockout. If I remember correctly, the first person that goes in to the instance is can supersede the other people. Or like this....

Player A has a lockout to Madness from Guild X

Player A goes and joins raid group with Guild Z

Player A goes into instance.

The rest of Guild Z goes into instance, and is offered choice to take the lockout of Player A, which is 7/8H

Guild Z defeats Madness of Deathwing..... gets credit for 7/8H with no kill for heroic Spine because they did not actually get a kill as a raid for that boss (requires 8 minimum guild members if I remember correctly)

That is how that could happen. They didn't steal the other guild's lockout. They poached a lockout that was AT Madness off of someone, possibly a member from that other guild, hence the "theft".

I had this happen with one of my raiders back in .... t11. Our healer took her lockout to Nefarian to another guild and that guild went straight to Nef, got the kill, but we did the work of clearing all the bosses leading up to Nef.

Make sense?

[Rhastia]

Yeah, if guild A had to PUG someone all the way up to Madness, that PUGed player could then take the lockout back to his own guild. Yes this seems like a dirty tactic, but there are a few other things to consider.

First, if your guild is going for server firsts, PUGing anyone is probably not the best idea for this very reason, by inviting a random person along, you're inviting them to share in your progression. Assuming they are not going to use that progression to their advantage when a server first is involved is just naive.

Second, guild B could not have been some random guild to have downed Madness. They would also have to have been working on progression to have the gear to kill madness, so while they may not have killed spine, they were close to finishing DS anyway. It's really a problem with spine being SO much more complicated to execute than madness. If the raid encounters were tuned a bit better, this situation would probably have never occurred.

[Leucifer]

Yeah, if guild A had to PUG someone all the way up to Madness, that PUGed player could then take the lockout back to his own guild. Yes this seems like a dirty tactic, but there are a few other things to consider.

It's not even a matter of having to pug someone. It could have been one of their regulars who was bored, ran with a group they knew elsewhere. Or it might have been a fallout with one of their members or alternate raid members. We don't know the full situation.

Second, guild B could not have been some random guild to have downed Madness. They would also have to have been working on progression to have the gear to kill madness, so while they may not have killed spine, they were close to finishing DS anyway. It's really a problem with spine being SO much more complicated to execute than madness. If the raid encounters were tuned a bit better, this situation would probably have never occurred.

At the end of the day, anytime you have people competing for something, you will always run the chance of someone bending/flexing/breaking rules to gain an advantage. Many of the top guilds did that early on in 4.3 and got thumped by Blizzard for it. Too bad, so sad. I really don't know how Blizzard would handle this issue as technically..... no one hacked the game. They did exploit a design feature.

As the old saying goes..... "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying."

This is just another symptom of the current state of raiding.

[Valaras]

Did they actually get the spam for server first achievement? Because atm they don't have 10-raiders who have killed madness on wowprogress. If those players had a madness kill already and joined the guild afterwards, it does show it at 7/8 with Madness killed for some reason. There is a guild in my server that is 7/8 with Madness down and no Spine, because 3 guys who had the achievement for Madness joined them.

[Leucifer]

Did they actually get the spam for server first achievement? Because atm they don't have 10-raiders who have killed madness on wowprogress. If those players had a madness kill already and joined the guild afterwards, it does show it at 7/8 with Madness killed for some reason. There is a guild in my server that is 7/8 with Madness down and no Spine, because 3 guys who had the achievement for Madness joined them.

Good question. OP doesn't go into that.

This shows some of the flaws with both WoW Progress and with the achievement system...... which ties in a bit with what I said in reply to the Weekly Marmot about how progression is "scored".

[Dreador]

Entirely possible and completely allowed in-game. Honestly I could see there being controversy if it was world-first, but you're talking the 2200s worldwide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...bpDylmUs#t=64s

[Rhastia]

So I was wandering the WoW forums earlier and I found the thread this is about. After reading about it, its certainly exploitative and very underhanded of the guild that 'stole' the kill. Here's what went down

1. Guild A killed Spine - no PUGed players, no defecting guildies.
2. Guild B creates a group with one of their members sitting outside DS (player B).
3. Someone in the group whispers a player in Guild A's raid group (player A) asking if they could summon them to SW.
4. Player A agrees (presumably because he/she is a nice guy) and is invited to the party.
5. As Player A is summoning, Player B converts the group into a raid and runs into the instance.
6. The game asks Player B if they want to accept the lockout for Spine killed, since Player A is in the raid group.
7. Player B accepts, thus "stealing" the lockout.

This is certainly an exploit that should be fixed, and I can't blame Guild A on being pissed.

[Leucifer]

So I was wandering the WoW forums earlier and I found the thread this is about. After reading about it, its certainly exploitative and very underhanded of the guild that 'stole' the kill. Here's what went down

1. Guild A killed Spine - no PUGed players, no defecting guildies.
2. Guild B creates a group with one of their members sitting outside DS (player B).
3. Someone in the group whispers a player in Guild A's raid group (player A) asking if they could summon them to SW.
4. Player A agrees (presumably because he/she is a nice guy) and is invited to the party.
5. As Player A is summoning, Player B converts the group into a raid and runs into the instance.
6. The game asks Player B if they want to accept the lockout for Spine killed, since Player A is in the raid group.
7. Player B accepts, thus "stealing" the lockout.

This is certainly an exploit that should be fixed, and I can't blame Guild A on being pissed.

Ooooooooo. That. Is. Sneaky!

Edit: And apparently this is not anything new. It's the issue of people's ego's being "hurt".

[Slyvar]

This basically happened to my guild in TBC. We couldn't get KT down and for some dumb reason our raid leader invited a member of another guild in to show him how the fight was done. I guess they went into KT's chamber together and he showed him different areas of the room to be for different things. The thing is, the next night when we went in there to start our pulls...He was dead.

The other guild took our raid lockout and killed the boss.

[Valaras]

Sorry, that's your fault for trusting other people not to screw you up if you are interested in getting the kill first.

[leethaxor]

I've been in guild's that have simply had their raid core xfer to another guild, get the kill then leave.

[tjayrocket]

Did they actually get the spam for server first achievement?

As far as I can tell and I hear, yes, they got the achievement for it. How? No idea. As stated, not my guild, just seemed like the most Bastardly thing in the current tier I have heard of. I mean, exploiting LFR is a bastardly thing, but to rip off somebodies hard work to get HMadness down and skip over spine, and get the achv? Once again, I get a chill over it...

[Dreador]

This basically happened to my guild in TBC. We couldn't get KT down and for some dumb reason our raid leader invited a member of another guild in to show him how the fight was done. I guess they went into KT's chamber together and he showed him different areas of the room to be for different things. The thing is, the next night when we went in there to start our pulls...He was dead.

The other guild took our raid lockout and killed the boss.

Word, TBC.

[Dreador]

This basically happened to my guild in TBC. We couldn't get KT down and for some dumb reason our raid leader invited a member of another guild in to show him how the fight was done. I guess they went into KT's chamber together and he showed him different areas of the room to be for different things. The thing is, the next night when we went in there to start our pulls...He was dead.

The other guild took our raid lockout and killed the boss.

Word, TBC.

[proudmoore]

Entirely possible and completely allowed in-game. Honestly I could see there being controversy if it was world-first, but you're talking the 2200s worldwide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...bpDylmUs#t=64s

Why has not being related to a world first got anything to do with whether or not it's unfair on the group in question? Such groups aren't probably competing for world firsts, they're competing with people of a similar level to themselves, a level at which such a competition actually has meaning.

Based on the video, your message seems to be "if you're not the best, you might as well not bother". While it might explain just how toxic the WoW community gets at times, it's somewhat self-defeating, and one hardly has to extend it far to see how pointless it becomes.