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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - 10/25 Man Shared Lockouts

  1. #61
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    lore

    hello this message is for Lore,i hope the next time u talk to blizzard dev team, can u please tell him disc priest are losing almost all there abilities, including, borrowed time,strength of soul,inspiration,renew,divine hymn,so disc is really done for now unless they give us our ablities back, and i was hopeing u could as dev team if they would consider revamping wintergrasp, for 90 and 90 loot, and engineers (goblin), need level 90 bombs,and raid wide food recipe,and engineers want to be able to use cogwheels on all helmets not just engineers helm item level dont last long and we lose our engineering passive abilities without cogwheels, we already cant use any of our spells in arenas, so engineers are up ship creek with no abilities item enhancments, and bm hunters spectral wolf is IMPOSSIBLE to find can we ask them to give spectral wolf a shorter spawn rate, plz can spectral wolf get ancient hysteria too plz, maybe blizzard could make an archeology craftable mount for engineers BOE,something like a hovercraft that can go over water,and have one extra seat for passenger plz ask dev team about this idea

  2. #62
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    can we find out from dev team if we can get corrupted ashbringer back just as a transmog gear, and maybe furious 2 hand bonegrinder,any news about gettting a warglaive skin(transmog)can we get the argent squire and argent gruntling to fight in bgs too best pet battle ever ??

  3. #63
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    Lore, please stop saying the word "Forced". People need to accept a little responsibility. Nobody is forced to do anything. They do it because they want to. And if they don't want to run 10's and 25's, they aren't going to be punished for it. It's better than not having the option to run 10's and 25's. That's a big problem cata had. People couldn't do 10's and 25's on the same character if they wanted to. And that "forced" people into not doing something.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I don't really like the idea of loot being exclusionary to a certain format. Even PvP/Raid gear you can at least USE in the other, even if it's not optimal. Splitting what gear you can use for what format seems.... tedious, for lack of a better word.
    It doesn't have to be excluded from pvp, having a pvp set and a pve set is not tedious, it is expected in any serious competitive gameplay. Being able to use raid gear between 10 and 25 is the problem, at least this way with your "alt 10 man set" it's comparative to using a different toon in your alt run. Alt runs aren't for everyone and this doesn't force progression raiders to farm both.

    In hindsight it causes a problem with recruiting where a 10 man raider wishes to raid 25 halfway through a tier, they would be set back to lfr ilvl at best if they managed to farm a full lfr set. Having some kind of block might still work though, even if it just scaled down your gear to lfr ilvl or something if you were wearing 10m loot in 25m or heroic gear to normal. Effectively like pvp power, 10m power/25m power but unseen and not quite as awful.

    I don't see the feeling of being forced to run both to progress faster in one occurring, at least not past the lfr point of getting your tier bonus at the beginning of a new tier patch. Having heroic 10 gear scaled to normal ilvl gear for 25m (eg. 410 to 397) shouldn't unbalance the progression of a guild since they have to be able to farm 10 heroic to get normal(397) gear and for that to be a real option 10m heroic, in this example, would have to be horribly broken and not similar in difficulty in at least a raid wide progression sense if not per boss.

    It does appear to be a fair amount of work for them, at least before they've ironed out the scaling in challenge modes, unless they just say "this 410 shoulder tier gives you this 397 shoulder tier stats in this raid instance", completely avoiding a mathematical scaling system.
    Last edited by pandapaws; 04-12-2012 at 01:34 AM. Reason: iPad breaks >:|

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandapaws View Post
    It doesn't have to be excluded from pvp, having a pvp set and a pve set is not tedious, it is expected in any serious competitive gameplay. Being able to use raid gear between 10 and 25 is the problem, at least this way with your "alt 10 man set" it's comparative to using a different toon in your alt run. Alt runs aren't for everyone and this doesn't force progression raiders to farm both.

    In hindsight it causes a problem with recruiting where a 10 man raider wishes to raid 25 halfway through a tier, they would be set back to lfr ilvl at best if they managed to farm a full lfr set. Having some kind of block might still work though, even if it just scaled down your gear to lfr ilvl or something if you were wearing 10m loot in 25m or heroic gear to normal. Effectively like pvp power, 10m power/25m power but unseen and not quite as awful.

    I don't see the feeling of being forced to run both to progress faster in one occurring, at least not past the lfr point of getting your tier bonus at the beginning of a new tier patch. Having heroic 10 gear scaled to normal ilvl gear for 25m (eg. 410 to 397) shouldn't unbalance the progression of a guild since they have to be able to farm 10 heroic to get normal(397) gear and for that to be a real option 10m heroic, in this example, would have to be horribly broken and not similar in difficulty in at least a raid wide progression sense if not per boss.

    It does appear to be a fair amount of work for them, at least before they've ironed out the scaling in challenge modes, unless they just say "this 410 shoulder tier gives you this 397 shoulder tier stats in this raid instance", completely avoiding a mathematical scaling system.
    It makes sense to have a pvp gear and pve gear separate because they are totally different activities. 10 and 25 man raiding is the same content, and the same gear. It makes absolutely no sense to artificially block you from using 10 man gear in a 25 man raid.

  6. #66
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    Blizzard seems to want to move away from 10 man and 25 man dropping different gear, even if it's just a different ilvl not different gear like in ICC. Frankly, I don't like the shared lock out, I like to be able to run 10 and 25 the same week; I think the shared lock out was a mistake.

    I also agree with the post above that makes the point that no one is "forced" to do anything. It's a choice, people choose to do things, if they put the burden on themselves, then that's their choice. The argument that the hardcore progression raiders will have to do this or that so, therefore, Blizzard shouldn't do something that would appeal to what appears to be a large segment of the community is kind of whiney and does not appear to weigh too heavily in Blizzard's thinking. You can't just stave off arguments, with (to paraphrase) "I know people will disagree, but my opinion is the correct one don't argue with me."

    The game is not about pleasing the hardcore progression raider, although that is part of it in the sense of trying to please all of ones customers , the game is about pleasing the masses, cause in the long run the masses pay the bills.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trahvolta View Post
    Lore, please stop saying the word "Forced". People need to accept a little responsibility. Nobody is forced to do anything. They do it because they want to. And if they don't want to run 10's and 25's, they aren't going to be punished for it. It's better than not having the option to run 10's and 25's. That's a big problem cata had. People couldn't do 10's and 25's on the same character if they wanted to. And that "forced" people into not doing something.
    It's not about responsibility, and you're taking what he said out of context. Forced in this instance means that you are forced to do something in order to be competitive. Although in some instances, a guild might actually require it's members to run additional dungeons, just like some guilds farmed LFR with alts.

    Not being able to run 10's and 25's is not a problem IMO. The whole point of a raid lock system is to "force you into not doing something". Blizzard doesn't want you running the same raid multiple times per week. I'm pretty sure the only reason LFR doesn't share a raid lock with the other modes is because they need raiders that know what they are doing to carry people. If you want to do multiple runs of the same raid, level an alt. If you want more things to do on your main, the answer isn't "let me run the same raid twice a week". The solution is to give me more things to do in the game.

  8. #68
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    Saying 25 man raiders running both 10s and 25s if the lockout is no longer shared is a "CHOICE" is like saying I have a "CHOICE" to not drive my car to work. Theoretically I could walk to work, but it would take me about an hour each way. It's not any REAL choice when you look at it.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Saying 25 man raiders running both 10s and 25s if the lockout is no longer shared is a "CHOICE" is like saying I have a "CHOICE" to not drive my car to work. Theoretically I could walk to work, but it would take me about an hour each way. It's not any REAL choice when you look at it.
    That two hour walk per day would be a good choice, unless it's up hill both ways in the snow with no shoes everyday, like how I told my kids I had to make my way to school when I was their age.

  10. #70
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    i just thought of another view of this, with my guild we run 10 mans but we have about 20 raiders. what could be good is using 25 mans for everyone to raid then cherry pick the best 10 for your 10 man progression. That way everyone gets to raid and the 10 man group arnt held back by less skilled team mates, which you all know in 25 man groups you always got a few that you are carring or have to bring because theres no one else

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestana View Post
    i just thought of another view of this, with my guild we run 10 mans but we have about 20 raiders. what could be good is using 25 mans for everyone to raid then cherry pick the best 10 for your 10 man progression. That way everyone gets to raid and the 10 man group arnt held back by less skilled team mates, which you all know in 25 man groups you always got a few that you are carring or have to bring because theres no one else
    Isn't that kind of what LFR is for? If you have 20 raiders, and you want everyone to raid, then why not just run two 10 mans? Or have your 10 man progression, then do a 25 man group 2/alt raid.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestana View Post
    i just thought of another view of this, with my guild we run 10 mans but we have about 20 raiders. what could be good is using 25 mans for everyone to raid then cherry pick the best 10 for your 10 man progression. That way everyone gets to raid and the 10 man group arnt held back by less skilled team mates, which you all know in 25 man groups you always got a few that you are carring or have to bring because theres no one else
    Lestana......
    You could run your guild a variety of ways. That's up to you guys. Getting buy-in from enough people to field a 25 man is the critical part.

    You could run 25 man normal as a large group on a more casual level as a big giant "guild event", and then have the two 10's run on their competitive progression level. That's kind of what my guild and another guild did. We teamed up for casual 25's.... just to get both guilds together and hang out for massive craziness, but each had their own 10 man team that was tackling content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltar View Post
    Isn't that kind of what LFR is for? If you have 20 raiders, and you want everyone to raid, then why not just run two 10 mans? Or have your 10 man progression, then do a 25 man group 2/alt raid.
    If they can get both 10's together plus a few extra people to run a 25 normal and have a fun time doing it as a guild.... then why not? Why does it have to be LFR?

    Edit: OH WAIT.... that's right. You can't raid unless you're all uber-serious. Totally forgot.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 04-12-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Lestana......
    You could run your guild a variety of ways. That's up to you guys. Getting buy-in from enough people to field a 25 man is the critical part.

    You could run 25 man normal as a large group on a more casual level as a big giant "guild event", and then have the two 10's run on their competitive progression level. That's kind of what my guild and another guild did. We teamed up for casual 25's.... just to get both guilds together and hang out for massive craziness, but each had their own 10 man team that was tackling content.
    You have the problem where no one wants to do normal, everyone is in the guild for heroic content and with shared lock out, you cant do a 10 & 25 man.

    and you cant run 2 teams with 20 raiders, there will always be someone that doesnt come or something else. just like you need more than 25 raiders for a 25man team


    On a side note you can kinda do this all now. run the first few nights as the 25 man group then switch to 10 for the remander of the nights. (i think you can do that anyway from the understanding i have from the way lock outs work)
    Last edited by Lestana; 04-12-2012 at 09:41 AM.

  14. #74
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    I think ur shared loot lockout is a pretty good system that could work well. However, i dont think u can mix LFR, 10 and 25 man. 10 and 25 man could work with the same table, but making them share with LFR as well.. In writing moment it doesnt really fit together in my mind. But overall, i think its a really good idea!

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  15. #75
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    I personally think that splitting the lockouts again is a great idea and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. There used to always be something going on when it was this way. I personally really liked the 10-251 ilvl & 25-264 ilvl set up w/ separate lockouts. Gave you a another option of improving your gear but I suppose LFR gear fills that gap. Even if they made the second raid you ran in a lockout period drop LFR quality gear, I'd be cool w/ that. Maybe LFR gear you can only get through that 2nd raid. Bring back raids to do. Now it is dead for half the week as in everyone is saved making it really hard to fill a PUG just for something to do.

    Ppl don't have to run both, while minmaxers/hardcore raiders will most likely, but ultimately that is their choice. Why alienate those who aren't minmaxers, which just so happens to be a larger % than hardcore raiders? I think there needs to be more to do on the PVE side of things. This would be awesome.

    An alternative is to have 2 weekly resets like they were supposedly trying in Korea iirc. It's an option.

    LFR is no more than a glorified 5 mans w/ a 500% increased margin for error over 5 mans. Hell the Trollroics were harder than LFR. I too do not considerate LFR raiding aside from it being called that.
    I think PVE needs more options, and I am happy to see that Blizzard is thinking on how to produce said options.
    Last edited by severyn71; 04-12-2012 at 11:43 AM.
    Ignorance can be cured through education,but Stupidity is chosen ignorance!

  16. #76
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    I THINK THEY SHOULD ELIMINATE 25 MANS ALTOGETHER!

    THAT WAY EVERYONE CAN JUST DO ONE RAID A WEEK AND IT WILL BE MY FAVORITE FORMAT!

    THIS IS NOT A BAD OR ANNOYING IDEA AT ALL!

    This topic is stupid. If you split raid lockouts again 25 mans get a HUGE advantage and 10 mans get the shaft again.

    Cool.

    How about no? Excellent. Let's do "no" then.

    Lore's loot lockout idea mitigates it, but at that point why even bother?

  17. #77
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    Someone gonna burst a blood vessel. Relax, the Yankees are starting to win again, it's all good.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Lore's loot lockout idea mitigates it, but at that point why even bother?
    Good question.

    I haven't really heard anyone going, "Damn! That was so much fun running Dragonsoul on 25 man! I wanna go run it again on 10!!!"

    Edit: I can promise though, with split lockouts, you will see 25 man guilds running their top 10 players to try and have the top seat on the 10 man front too. Not that I really have a ton of issue with this personally.... but I would be willing to bet there will be complaints.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    I THINK THEY SHOULD ELIMINATE 25 MANS ALTOGETHER!

    THAT WAY EVERYONE CAN JUST DO ONE RAID A WEEK AND IT WILL BE MY FAVORITE FORMAT!

    THIS IS NOT A BAD OR ANNOYING IDEA AT ALL!

    This topic is stupid. If you split raid lockouts again 25 mans get a HUGE advantage and 10 mans get the shaft again.

    Cool.

    How about no? Excellent. Let's do "no" then.

    Lore's loot lockout idea mitigates it, but at that point why even bother?
    In other words your saying that Blizz should give it's subscribers less options. Thats not exactly what a company that is running an MMO wants to do. Less options = less to do, and when there's less to do ppl get bored faster of what there is to do. They then go elsewhere to find entertainment.
    They don't need to eliminate anything, rather they need to add more.

    I'm sorry but I just don't agree w/ you!
    Ignorance can be cured through education,but Stupidity is chosen ignorance!

  20. #80
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    If you want to do 10s and 25s every week and you're a 25 man guild, you already can!

    Roll an alt...
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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