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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - 10/25 Man Shared Lockouts

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by severyn71 View Post
    In other words your saying that Blizz should give it's subscribers less options. Thats not exactly what a company that is running an MMO wants to do. Less options = less to do, and when there's less to do ppl get bored faster of what there is to do. They then go elsewhere to find entertainment.
    They don't need to eliminate anything, rather they need to add more.

    I'm sorry but I just don't agree w/ you!
    Pssst. He's using sarcasm to drive a point.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    If you want to do 10s and 25s every week and you're a 25 man guild, you already can!Roll an alt...
    But I like my main, others could bring alts while some take their main again if it wasn't a shared lockout. The account wide achievements, pets, mounts, (titles?) might help though.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    If you want to do 10s and 25s every week and you're a 25 man guild, you already can!

    Roll an alt...
    It's just not the same; the emmotional attachment just isn't there like with your main; then you start to play your alts and maybe like one of them a bit better, so you start taking her into your main raids, then your main starts getting all jealous that she's now just an alt run wench, then they start cat fighting, then things get all violent, who hit who with a mace and who took a lightening bolt to the crouch and restraining orders go out then you have to find a new alt to be your main and the two jilted alts then band together and, well, it just gets ugly.

    Better to just have 10 and 25 not share a lock out.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    It's just not the same; the emmotional attachment just isn't there like with your main; then you start to play your alts and maybe like one of them a bit better, so you start taking her into your main raids, then your main starts getting all jealous that she's now just an alt run wench, then they start cat fighting, then things get all violent, who hit who with a mace and who took a lightening bolt to the crouch and restraining orders go out then you have to find a new alt to be your main and the two jilted alts then band together and, well, it just gets ugly.

    Better to just have 10 and 25 not share a lock out.

    I still don't see a valid reason to have separate locks with the raids dropping the same loot. Your reasoning boils down to "I want to run it again", but the entire point of raid locks is to prevent people from running the same raid multiple times. There are good reasons for limiting players. You can't have LFR + separate 10 man and 25 man locks. That's people running the same raid 3x a week. That will cause burnout. It's a terrible idea.

    I guess I could maybe get behind a system where you had 2 separate locks each week which you could use on lfr, N 10 man, N 25 man, H 10 man, or H 25 man.

  5. #85
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    From someone who raids 10H and 25alt and has done 25H/10alt/25+10 raiding in wrath(I didn't raid the 4 times a week toc though), I don't think that the entire point is to just prevent people running the same raid multiple times, it is to stop any sort of progression focused raid feeling forced into running the same content multiple times.

    Alt runs are a fairly common thing in many guilds, with the same raiders attending both main and alt runs. If there are people who want to run DS a second time and they level an alt to do so because they enjoy it, that is an okay reason to run multiples of the same raid each week. It applies no pressure to your main progression focused raid or causes raiders to burn out as you can just stop going whenever you like without impacting your main's progression. (There could be an exception for healers being obligated to attend both but as said those guilds wouldn't last very long.)

    A system with with lfr/10n/25n/10h/25h still causes this need to run 25n and 25h if you are interested in progressing your character through 25m raids. Also, once you can't upgrade anything from lfr, which is fairly quickly if you actually raid, you aren't forced to run lfr, it's also a faceroll and doesn't quite equal the burn out you get from 10 and 25 man raiding each week if both are necessary.

    There are also multiple reason people wish to have alt raids, raiding with a different group of friends, just enjoying the more relaxed raid, gearing alts to swap in to the main raid, liking two different classes, learning a different role.

    TLDR: People wanting to raid twice a week is good, raiding twice a week or having your progression suffer is bad and not a real choice.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandapaws View Post
    TLDR: People wanting to raid twice a week is good, raiding twice a week or having your progression suffer is bad and not a real choice.
    THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS 1000X THIS!!!!!!!!
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandapaws View Post
    TLDR: People wanting to raid twice a week is good, raiding twice a week or having your progression suffer is bad and not a real choice.
    I think what you really mean is........

    1) Raiding twice a week because it's an option and because you feel like doing more stuff for fun. Good.

    2) Feeling like you have to raid twice a week to "compete" or because you have this sense that, if you don't, you're not maximizing your potential to "win" (a never-ending game), that "you're not really raiding unless you are doing every single freakin' thing possible in order to statistically improve your odds"..... THAT... is "bad".

    I've been accused of not getting this. I do understand. I understand that peer-pressure, unwritten rule of raiding sort of thing.

    My question is, do you guys understand that this is entirely artificial and contrived? That it's not really, truly "required"? It's only required because it has become an unwritten de facto "standard" that we, the community, have pretty much placed on ourselves?

    Yeah. I get it. There is a point (somewhat undefined) where it just becomes extra BS that you do in order to feel like you're doing your best. It's going to vary from person to person.... but it's something in between running 10's and 25's every week.... and only running 25's. (and possibly LFR) Blizzard definitely has not identified that happy median. If they had.... we wouldn't be discussing this.


    Last edited by Leucifer; 04-12-2012 at 03:45 PM.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    My question is, do you guys understand that this is entirely artificial and contrived? That it's not really, truly "required"? It's only required because it has become an unwritten de facto "standard" that we, the community, have pretty much placed on ourselves?
    If you think this, you don't get it.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    If you think this, you don't get it.
    No. I get it.

    But thank you for showing just how deeply ingrained this mindset is.

    Edit: And yes Agg. I do "get it".

    Why would you run content intentionally (or untintentionally) at a lower level of effectiveness? I understand the idea that this would be "illogical".
    If my point is to win, why would I intentionally "gimp" myself? Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? I understand that the idea is to set up all other factors to be in the ideal state, so that the only factor the stands between my winning and losing is my individual performance on any given run. To not do this, would be illogical, and would affect my ability to accomplish my (and my team's) goal.

    Now. Would you say that I understand your view Agg?
    Last edited by Leucifer; 04-12-2012 at 04:04 PM. Reason: typo
    No one tanks in a void.........

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    No. I get it.

    But thank you for showing just how deeply ingrained this mindset is.
    No seriously... it's not some weird mindset where all we have to do is deconstruct the Real and everything will be fine. There are very real and pragmatic reasons as to why it is "like" this. And frankly I'm sick and tired of trying to prove it to people.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    No seriously... it's not some weird mindset where all we have to do is deconstruct the Real and everything will be fine. There are very real and pragmatic reasons as to why it is "like" this. And frankly I'm sick and tired of trying to prove it to people.
    Maybe if you didn't make the choice...oh nevermind it's too much like work.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    No seriously... it's not some weird mindset where all we have to do is deconstruct the Real and everything will be fine. There are very real and pragmatic reasons as to why it is "like" this. And frankly I'm sick and tired of trying to prove it to people.
    No. It's kind of like how, "You're not really raiding unless you're doing 25's." Right?

    No one tanks in a void.........

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandapaws View Post
    From someone who raids 10H and 25alt and has done 25H/10alt/25+10 raiding in wrath(I didn't raid the 4 times a week toc though), I don't think that the entire point is to just prevent people running the same raid multiple times, it is to stop any sort of progression focused raid feeling forced into running the same content multiple times.

    Alt runs are a fairly common thing in many guilds, with the same raiders attending both main and alt runs. If there are people who want to run DS a second time and they level an alt to do so because they enjoy it, that is an okay reason to run multiples of the same raid each week. It applies no pressure to your main progression focused raid or causes raiders to burn out as you can just stop going whenever you like without impacting your main's progression. (There could be an exception for healers being obligated to attend both but as said those guilds wouldn't last very long.).
    There's a big difference between running the same raid multiple times on the same character and running it on an alt. The vast majority of players aren't going to be doing alt runs on the same class and often aren't doing the same role. But yes, limiting progression is also a big factor in the need for locks.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    No. It's kind of like how, "You're not really raiding unless you're doing 25's." Right?

    Yay!!! For taking quotes out of context when I was talking about zones like ZA that were 10 man "side raids" to the tier raids. Again, you're bending my words to try and fit your cause of me being some sort of callous elitist instead of understanding what I'm trying to tell you and why removing the shared lockout is a TERRIBLE idea.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Yay!!! For taking quotes out of context when I was talking about zones like ZA that were 10 man "side raids" to the tier raids. Again, you're bending my words to try and fit your cause of me being some sort of callous elitist instead of understanding what I'm trying to tell you and why removing the shared lockout is a TERRIBLE idea.
    I wasn't quoting YOU. I was pointing out the obvious FLAWED THINKING of people who claim that "25's are REAL raiding, and nothing else is".

    Agg! I have never said, nor do I believe you're an elitist! I'd like to actually think I know better, and that you're one of the more rational and reasonable minds here.

    *String of curse words that would probably get me banhammered*........... I'm not even going to try and explain. The concept I'm trying to drive across is very basic: you can't go back to the OLD 10/25 split as it was because of HOW PEOPLE ARE. IT WILL FAIL. People will "have to" do extra stuff in order to raid at their top potential. That's just for starters. I definitely don't see Blizzard EVER going back to making different loot for 25's and 10's. That'll just make the situation worse. They've crossed a bridge. They've gone forward. They cannot go backward without severely pissing people off. Blizzard definitely isn't going to do anything to tick of the 10's, because that'd be effectively slitting their wrists.

    I'm done. Agg.... I respect the hell outta you.It's my own fault for not communicating my thoughts across effectively. I'm sorry for that, so I'm just going to stop.


    No one tanks in a void.........

  16. #96
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    How people are is why utopias don't exist. Ideologically yes, it would be nice, realistically and pragmatically, no removing the split will not work.

    The ONLY way I could see it working is to remove any advantage from running it again except for helping other people. If loot drops that you could use, tough luck, it can't be traded to you you aren't flagged as eligible for it. It needs to be so you still only have 1 shot per boss at getting loot a week.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    How people are is why utopias don't exist.
    It's also why "villains" are always trying to destroy the world...one can see their point...

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    It's also why "villains" are always trying to destroy the world...one can see their point...
    Robots aren't people Ion.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  19. #99
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    This is turning dangerously close towards me sniping some of you.

    Veer off now. You're all just BARELY avoiding it becoming the topic I told you I don't want it to turn to.

    My tolerance for this topic is near zero right now. Next person to mention 10 vs 25 in any shape or form is gonna get it.

    Tankspot Moderator
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    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Robots aren't people Ion.
    More's the pity...

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