Better to just have 10 and 25 not share a lock out.
I still don't see a valid reason to have separate locks with the raids dropping the same loot. Your reasoning boils down to "I want to run it again", but the entire point of raid locks is to prevent people from running the same raid multiple times. There are good reasons for limiting players. You can't have LFR + separate 10 man and 25 man locks. That's people running the same raid 3x a week. That will cause burnout. It's a terrible idea.
I guess I could maybe get behind a system where you had 2 separate locks each week which you could use on lfr, N 10 man, N 25 man, H 10 man, or H 25 man.
From someone who raids 10H and 25alt and has done 25H/10alt/25+10 raiding in wrath(I didn't raid the 4 times a week toc though), I don't think that the entire point is to just prevent people running the same raid multiple times, it is to stop any sort of progression focused raid feeling forced into running the same content multiple times.
Alt runs are a fairly common thing in many guilds, with the same raiders attending both main and alt runs. If there are people who want to run DS a second time and they level an alt to do so because they enjoy it, that is an okay reason to run multiples of the same raid each week. It applies no pressure to your main progression focused raid or causes raiders to burn out as you can just stop going whenever you like without impacting your main's progression. (There could be an exception for healers being obligated to attend both but as said those guilds wouldn't last very long.)
A system with with lfr/10n/25n/10h/25h still causes this need to run 25n and 25h if you are interested in progressing your character through 25m raids. Also, once you can't upgrade anything from lfr, which is fairly quickly if you actually raid, you aren't forced to run lfr, it's also a faceroll and doesn't quite equal the burn out you get from 10 and 25 man raiding each week if both are necessary.
There are also multiple reason people wish to have alt raids, raiding with a different group of friends, just enjoying the more relaxed raid, gearing alts to swap in to the main raid, liking two different classes, learning a different role.
TLDR: People wanting to raid twice a week is good, raiding twice a week or having your progression suffer is bad and not a real choice.
I think what you really mean is........
1) Raiding twice a week because it's an option and because you feel like doing more stuff for fun. Good.
2) Feeling like you have to raid twice a week to "compete" or because you have this sense that, if you don't, you're not maximizing your potential to "win" (a never-ending game), that "you're not really raiding unless you are doing every single freakin' thing possible in order to statistically improve your odds"..... THAT... is "bad".
I've been accused of not getting this. I do understand. I understand that peer-pressure, unwritten rule of raiding sort of thing.
My question is, do you guys understand that this is entirely artificial and contrived? That it's not really, truly "required"? It's only required because it has become an unwritten de facto "standard" that we, the community, have pretty much placed on ourselves?
Yeah. I get it. There is a point (somewhat undefined) where it just becomes extra BS that you do in order to feel like you're doing your best. It's going to vary from person to person.... but it's something in between running 10's and 25's every week.... and only running 25's. (and possibly LFR) Blizzard definitely has not identified that happy median. If they had.... we wouldn't be discussing this.
Last edited by Leucifer; 04-12-2012 at 04:45 PM.
No one tanks in a void.........
No. I get it.
But thank you for showing just how deeply ingrained this mindset is.
Edit: And yes Agg. I do "get it".
Why would you run content intentionally (or untintentionally) at a lower level of effectiveness? I understand the idea that this would be "illogical".
If my point is to win, why would I intentionally "gimp" myself? Why would I put myself at a disadvantage? I understand that the idea is to set up all other factors to be in the ideal state, so that the only factor the stands between my winning and losing is my individual performance on any given run. To not do this, would be illogical, and would affect my ability to accomplish my (and my team's) goal.
Now. Would you say that I understand your view Agg?
Last edited by Leucifer; 04-12-2012 at 05:04 PM. Reason: typo
No one tanks in a void.........
I wasn't quoting YOU. I was pointing out the obvious FLAWED THINKING of people who claim that "25's are REAL raiding, and nothing else is".
Agg! I have never said, nor do I believe you're an elitist! I'd like to actually think I know better, and that you're one of the more rational and reasonable minds here.
*String of curse words that would probably get me banhammered*........... I'm not even going to try and explain. The concept I'm trying to drive across is very basic: you can't go back to the OLD 10/25 split as it was because of HOW PEOPLE ARE. IT WILL FAIL. People will "have to" do extra stuff in order to raid at their top potential. That's just for starters. I definitely don't see Blizzard EVER going back to making different loot for 25's and 10's. That'll just make the situation worse. They've crossed a bridge. They've gone forward. They cannot go backward without severely pissing people off. Blizzard definitely isn't going to do anything to tick of the 10's, because that'd be effectively slitting their wrists.
I'm done. Agg.... I respect the hell outta you.It's my own fault for not communicating my thoughts across effectively. I'm sorry for that, so I'm just going to stop.
No one tanks in a void.........
How people are is why utopias don't exist. Ideologically yes, it would be nice, realistically and pragmatically, no removing the split will not work.
The ONLY way I could see it working is to remove any advantage from running it again except for helping other people. If loot drops that you could use, tough luck, it can't be traded to you you aren't flagged as eligible for it. It needs to be so you still only have 1 shot per boss at getting loot a week.
This is turning dangerously close towards me sniping some of you.
Veer off now. You're all just BARELY avoiding it becoming the topic I told you I don't want it to turn to.
My tolerance for this topic is near zero right now. Next person to mention 10 vs 25 in any shape or form is gonna get it.
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