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Thread: PST - Episode 73

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    What gifts were 10 mans "given"? Support your argument with something or drop it.
    The gifts were simply same rights, same loot, same lock-outs as 25s trying to make them equal while knowing the 10s will be the easy route, easier path.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    And I've run 25's in both BC and Wrath. Had a lot of fun. But it has changed.

    Yes. It has changed in their state, but what I'm trying to say is that Blizzard changed them, they didn't changed like in Darwin's evolution.
    I hate TOC patch for this, that gave Blizzard and 10m raiders this excuse.
    If Blizzard changed them, Blizzard has to fix it somehow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post


    Yes. This was affected by 10 mans. This was also affected by a change in raid progression. The tiers became ever more separated. And, as gear has escalated in performance value..... this has become even more of an issue. The whole thing is really a multi-faceted issue that has evolved from the devs NOT having a fantastic long term plan going foward (in my opinion). Right now, the state of things..... it really seems like we, as a whole, have moved to this "free-agency" kind of approach.
    Ohh ... my points exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    Yes. I'd like to see something done to give people better and easier access to other people with similar gaming goals in WoW. I don't want to see 25 man raiding die off. At the same time though, I also don't want to see the rest of the WoW community suffer just to appease a small sub-group.
    Well now 25s suffer ...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawer View Post
    The gifts were simply same rights, same loot, same lock-outs as 25s trying to make them equal while knowing the 10s will be the easy route, easier path.
    You're an idiot. Stop posting now.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    You're an idiot. Stop posting now.
    /cower

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawer View Post
    The gifts were simply same rights, same loot, same lock-outs as 25s trying to make them equal while knowing the 10s will be the easy route, easier path.
    ....... I'm speechless.

    I was going to respond to the rest.... but I think I'm wasting my time.

    I'm just going to say I disagree, and leave it at that.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  5. #65
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    Wow what a bunch of people that are so butt hurt over this.

    Rawer, I mostly agree with all your points. Something has to be done or honestly I would rather blizzard just drop one of the formats all together. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to raid in 25 mans anymore. Maybe half the servers currently can really support more then 1 25 man guild. By support I mean a healthy guild that isn't bleeding players. Unless your the top guild on your server it is becoming next to impossible to stay alive. I think free server xfers would help with this a lot. At worst it would allow a current guild to transfer over to a server that could support a 25.

    @ everyone else you sound so so butt hurt its painful. It's obvious that you're in a 10 man. Many people being in a guild is more then just raiding. 25 man raid groups are great for people that want to be social and do stuff outside raid. Being in a 10 man is like being in a ghost town. Its so so boring. Log in and there's never anyone on. If they are on, they're afk. Vent is even worse.

    And honestly 10 man raiding statistically is going to be easier then 25 man. if theres a 1% chance of someone dcing / lagging out / just makes a stupid mistake per pull then statistically in a 10 man 1 in every 10 pulls will be a wipe due to something outside the raids control. In 25 man 1 in every 4 pulls will be a wipe.

    Just saying that I'm pretty sad with the amount of work we have to do for recruitment this tier due to A. a shitty tier so nobody wants to raid B. the lack of people that want to raid 25's and C. fit into our guild.

  6. #66
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    Just saying that I'm pretty sad with the amount of work we have to do for recruitment this tier due to A. a shitty tier so nobody wants to raid B. the lack of people that want to raid 25's and C. fit into our guild.
    People act like ten man guilds have streams of applicants that mean we spend more time sorting through them than we do raiding. 10 man raids also have recruitment issues. We are by no means the worst guild on the server at 7/8 heroic, in fact last time I looked we were something like 8th total progression and 3rd 10man on the server (How many 8/8 heroic 25 mans does that give?), but we have had 7 applications this content patch. 5 of which we have had to let go due to various reasons.

    I would say that a ten man raid needs a far more stringent recruitment policy as we have to require near 100% attendance (we have a roster of 11-12 people), we also need to make sure they fit in with the rest of the raid as we have a very tight-knit community, many of whom know each other in real life or have played together for the last 6 years. We don't need anybody coming in and rocking the boat.

    I'm not going to go into the whole 25 is harder bull, because I have seen the argument play out exactly the same at least 5 times in the last year, and I regard the statistics thing in the post above to be a statistical fallacy.

  7. #67
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    Enough.

    Holy hell, I am starting to really hate this topic. I'm going to probably want to stab someone in the face anytime I see Lore putting a PST question about 10/25 man now.

    Seriously, can you guys not have a conversation about this before it falls into the whole "You're an idiot" posts? Stop. It.

    I mean it. I'm tired of seeing the lashing out like this. Either discuss the topic and hold your damn insulting comments to yourselves or don't post in the thread. I'm going to leave this warning here and anything under that violates the ToS of using this forum is going to get a serious smackdown.

    Act your age. Realize that people have different opinions and different stances.

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  8. #68
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    Oh I do take offense to Rawer ... trust me. As a 25 man raider I am offended that he plays to the stereotype but I kind of felt he was harmless enough because his rhetoric was so extreme/self defeating that I figured no one would take him seriously. Either way glad you came around. I do agree with many of your points here and I definitely feel blizzard made many mistakes in their game direction the past expansion and a half ... but I also believe they are trying to course correct now. I have high hopes for pandaland ... but we will see.

    Certainly 10s vs 25s are actually just one piece of the puzzle, as you rightly pointed out there are other behemoth issues floating out there like the ridiculous gear curve which ties into the invalidation of previous content/gear at a staggering rate that ultimately shrinks the envelope of playable content at any one time to the smallest it's ever been. To me, 10v25 matters but nowhere near as much as that which scares me more. In Vanilla and BC we always had dozens of relevant bosses/raids/encounters to do ... but ever since the wrath model the amount of relevant, playable content has ever been shrinking until this expansion when we resulted in one tiny raid with a bazillion boring modes. Yeah I want my 25 mans to survive, but I want MORE to have an actual volume of content that I can't count on my fingers.
    Last edited by feralminded; 04-11-2012 at 08:23 AM.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Oh I do take offense to Rawer ... trust me. As a 25 man raider I am offended that he plays to the stereotype but I kind of felt he was harmless enough because his rhetoric was so extreme/self defeating that I figured no one would take him seriously.
    Feral... I spoke because ....

    But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success - Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
    There. I have completed the circle. I now invoke Godwin's Law.


    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Either way glad you came around. I do agree with many of your points here and I definitely feel blizzard made many mistakes in their game direction the past expansion and a half ... but I also believe they are trying to course correct now. I have high hopes for pandaland ... but we will see.

    Certainly 10s vs 25s are actually just one piece of the puzzle, as you rightly pointed out there are other behemoth issues floating out there like the ridiculous gear curve which ties into the invalidation of previous content/gear at a staggering rate that ultimately shrinks the envelope of playable content at any one time to the smallest it's ever been. To me, 10v25 matters but nowhere near as much as that which scares me more. In Vanilla and BC we always had dozens of relevant bosses/raids/encounters to do ... but ever since the wrath model the amount of relevant, playable content has ever been shrinking until this expansion when we resulted in one tiny raid with a bazillion boring modes. Yeah I want my 25 mans to survive, but I want MORE to have an actual volume of content that I can't count on my fingers.
    This...... (points up)

    I completely and ephatically agree with you on this Feral.

    And thanks for the sanity check.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    As a 25 man raider I am offended that he plays to the stereotype but I kind of felt he was harmless enough because his rhetoric was so extreme/self defeating that I figured no one would take him seriously.
    My whole point is that Blizzard needs to do something extreme or 25s will going to decline even more.

    Well, you still do 25s, I've seen 3 guilds step away from 25s this expansion. And I already payed a transfer once in my WoW life play time.
    And people are worried that my "crazy" ideas will hurt the once 'til BC/Wrath minority now become majority of 10m raiders. Well I and lots of other people not so vocal were hurt already by Blizzard's decisions.

  11. #71
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    The issue I as a 25 man raider (and likely every 10 man raider) has with your point of view is how dreadfully myopic it is. No doubt, plenty of 10 man raiders possess similarly myopic points of view and perhaps you feel that a sort of escalation is necessary to be heard ... but it isn't and they are no more right than you. In the end what we NEED isn't something gamechaning/ending that will sabotage the progress they have made with their game ... instead we need patience and compromise.

    You need to concede that a non-trivial percentage of the population actually enjoys 10 man raiding and deserve to have their format preserved and respected and therefore properly facilitated by blizzard. What they need to concede is that the 25 man format is likewise enjoyed by many and should also be facilitated to exist. Both points must be accepted before we can then decide the best path to satisfying them. BC and Vanilla are never coming back and there are plenty of good reasons why not ... but that does NOT mean Catalcysm is the end of this game's evolution. Blizzard can continue forward and continue to improve the experience to satisfy a very large percentage of their players. Hope is not lost.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

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