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Thread: Holy Pally Beta Changes

  1. #1
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    Holy Pally Beta Changes

    This thread is about Holy Paladin Beta Changes. Discuss.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 03-30-2012 at 03:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    I don't know how I feel about these changes. Maybe it's just change fatigue. I healed all through WoLK as a Holy Pally, being a tank healer; Cata comes along and we get the mana nerf and we get changes so now we can raid heal a bit; heal all though Cata as a Holy Pally (and Disc Priest); get really comfortable with the style and it's changing again. The healers are becoming a homogenous group - we can all raid heal and we can all tank heal. Why bother with a healing mix.

    Guess it's the nature of the expansions; but it seems every expansion brings with it a new healing paradigm. Maybe it's just me, but it seems the healers end up always with the biggest learning curves going into an expansion.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    The healers are becoming a homogenous group - we can all raid heal and we can all tank heal. Why bother with a healing mix.
    Because we also believe in bring the player not the class. If healers were not a homogenous groups then guilds would sit some healers out depending on certain fights in order to get other healers in that are better for the fight.
    I strongly believe that bring the player not the class should be held up and as such I am happy for our classes to be a homogenous group.
    Until it gets to the stage that I cannot tell the difference between my Holy Paladin and my Resto Shaman, I am not worried.

    More on topic though; I wrote a post about some of the changes uses the blog feature of this website. Check it out and let me know what you think, it can be found here: http://www.tankspot.com/entry.php?4313-The-Holy-Paladin.

    One thing I want to say regarding the beta changes is that I see many people claim that Holy Radiance no longer generates Holy Power. Just to clarify this for anyone under this impression. Holy Radiance does still generate Holy Power. The only difference is Holy Power is not inbuilt into Holy Radiance instead of it going through a talent.

    I took a look at the blog you linked and it was pretty good. It was worth the read and had quite a few interesting things mentioned.

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    Homogenous is bad in my opinion and supposedly in Blizzard's opinion, but all they're doing it making it so any heal can do anything. That's not bring the player, that's just design laziness. I liked when Pally's were the single target healers of choice and had to really work at keeping a raid up if another healer went down (I remember this one time on Litch King.....) - it was challenging. Now I can out heal Resto druids, shammys and holy priests raid healing.

    I don't know, the sameness is a bit boring and it seems it's going to get worse.

  5. #5
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    I strongly believe that any healer should be able to do anything.
    I believe that Holy Paladins, Resto Druids, Holy Priests, Disc Priests and Resto Shamans should all be able to raid heal to the same level. I also believe they should all be able to Tank heal to the same level.

    I agree with you in that classes should be different. They should all have a completely different feel for them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do the role either.

    Look what happened on Spine of Deathwing because of the burst that Arcane Mages have. The world first kill took 7 of them. If it were more balanced so that all classes could do roughly the same burst, they wouldn't be needing to class stack.

    The same has happened for healers in the past too. Certain healing specs have been sat from raids because that spec wasn't able to do the job and that should never happen. Any healer should be able to be thrown into a situation and be able to heal through it, you shouldn't be at a disadvantage and not be able to do it because of your class. The reason you fail to an encounter should be because of your personal skill, not because your class cannot do it.

    A certain about of Homogenous is going to be a good thing. I don't want it to go to the extreme and I want all classes to feel different, but I also want everyone to also be able to do what they need to do.

  6. #6
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    Again Theo.... is is part of that feedback loop.

    One of the complaints in previous expansions was that certain tanks were just not brought in to certain boss fights. They weren't "ideal". So sayeth the hardcore crowd. Thus, if you weren't bringing a paladin tank or a healer of a specific class to a certain fight, you were labeled as fail. Or a group just didn't bring that class period. If you played that class.... awwww too bad. Sucks to be you.

    So Blizzard responded by trying to homogenize the classes so that certain classes weren't relegated to being useless. Mind you... this was directly in response to theorycrafting and the various analysis done by the players (which was done originally due to the dev tailoring fights that favored certain clases).

    Now.... people are unhappy that things are homogenized. Which is.... in a way, part of the push for making smaller talent trees with more immediately selectable specializations. Meaning, healer A can now be more specifically tuned to do X better. This is creating a sense of uniqueness..... BUT... at the root of it.... there's now even less specificity for the class versus other classes. You're no longer locked into one or two specs.... you can alter what you are at will, which means really, you're further homogenized.

    And, what will happen in turn......

    Theorycrafters and hardcores will go and determine that X spec for class A is the optimum for encounter Z. If you're not running in X / A / Z configuration for a certain boss.... thou shalt be labeled as "fail". Because you're not maximizing the total potential of your toon. Because if you really wanted to win and compete at the highest level possible, you'd do it.

    This will in turn compel Blizzard to do something else in response. Heaven knows what that will be.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  7. #7
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    I can agree on the difference in feel; I think the best way to explain it is that while each class should be able to heal as necessary, they should not do so equally well, but not be so gimped that they fail if they have to step into the breach. Excel at one thing and beable to do a reasonble job at another if called upon in an emergency.

    My Disc priest probably feels the most this way, great single target and reasonably effect at keeping the raid up if I have to.


    Rofl Leucifer: "Heaven knows what that will be". I can only imagine.

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    I completely agree Theo.

    Problem is.... when one of something doesn't do something as well as another.... those people who are of the belief that you must do everything to maximize your potential as an individual or raid team will push and gravitate towards the thing that is "optimal".

    And then berate those who don't use it.

    Edit: Your only saving grace is when someone is just so damn good at something that them running their class at that class's "optimum" beats out whatever else is available.

    In other words..... most raids will glady take an Ion for Spine because he beats the crap out of any of the burst dps players they can find or have available to them.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  9. #9
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    I can now agree with you. It is okay for a class to specialize in one thing and still be able to do the others to a reasonable degree. It just wasn't okay for a class to specialize in one thing and not be able to do the other to any degree really.

    Ignoring the class Homogenous for a minute though, how do you guys feel about some of the changes?

  10. #10
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    What planet do you play on?

    I trust the people in my raid to know what the fuck they're doing (mostly) with their class. If they're doing something it's generally for a good reason. If it doesn't agree with theorycrafting it's probably because they saw something the last time we were there or because we have someone else doing something that makes them do whatever it was. Who fucking examines their raid like that?

    Yes...if we're struggling on an encounter we'll start offering suggestions on what might be helpful from each other ("Oh, you aren't spec'd into <X thing>? What if you did that and then did <whatever> at <whenever>? Would that be useful/help?")...sometimes they're useful suggestions, most of the time they're not...because most of the time the person thought of that already and figured out why it wouldn't be useful.

    And it's not like we're going to say "Well, Bob, you play a priest. Priests are garbage on this fight so we're going to go out and find us a warlock because warlocks are gods on this fight." We have our roster. If priests are not as good and warlocks are better...well we'll have to kill it with "not as good" because we're not going to fuck over Bob because he doesn't play a warlock.

    It seems to me like these scenarios are mystical nonsense that never happen except in the minds of people who don't actually play the game.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    It seems to me like these scenarios are mystical nonsense that never happen except in the minds of people who don't actually play the game.
    You are actually honestly saying you have never seen an instance of classes being sat for other classes? Or am I miss-reading your whole post?

  12. #12
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    Ion.......

    1) It has historical precedent. See BC and shamans. Also see early wrath and tanks vs Sarth. Those are two quick off the top of the noggin thoughts.

    2) Your raid group is a bit unique. But.... for those raid guilds that actively are RECRUITING.... what are they going to take?

    Mage A ...... which is currently not the favored son of Blizzard
    or
    Warlock B...... which due to whatever 2 or 3 fights where they really shine have become the flavor of the month?

    Your raid's roster is set. You guys are a tight knit group.
    But for those guilds that are ALWAYS recruiting.... you bet yer ass they are going to look for favorable raid comps.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    You are actually honestly saying you have never seen an instance of classes being sat for other classes? Or am I miss-reading your whole post?
    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.
    Wait..what? You're not that new to the game are you? This happens all the time in progression raiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Ion.......

    1) It has historical precedent. See BC and shamans. Also see early wrath and tanks vs Sarth. Those are two quick off the top of the noggin thoughts.
    Oh? BC? You mean 3 expansions ago with completely different mechanics, developers, players and raids? THAT is your example? And sarth? More old expansions? Excellent points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    2) Your raid group is a bit unique. But.... for those raid guilds that actively are RECRUITING.... what are they going to take?

    Mage A ...... which is currently not the favored son of Blizzard
    or
    Warlock B...... which due to whatever 2 or 3 fights where they really shine have become the flavor of the month?
    If they're not shit they're taking whichever of those two is the better player and better fit for their guild. FotM, by its very nature, CHANGES ALL THE TIME.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.
    Then I am very much in love with your raid team

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    Wait..what? You're not that new to the game are you? This happens all the time in progression raiding.
    This...........

    Ion. You're a bit unique. Your raid guild/group is a bit unique.

    Even on my pathetic little server though.... specific classes are targeted for raid comp. It's NOT like it used to be. BC is a shining example of raid comp tweaking. But it STILL happens.

    And you can bet if you get another Heroic Ragnaros type fight in the future, where the margin between success and failure gets really small..... progressive raiders will fall back to min-maxing raid comp for a specific fight.
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    Edited OP from advertising, and moved to Beta forum.

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  19. #19
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    Since we did some of this in the shoutbox and not here, I'll summarize my point:

    Just because 즐거운공격대 brought a weird comp to their WORLD FIRST kill doesn't mean that Jimmy Raider needs to. I can't imagine that most guilds have the ability to do what 즐거운공격대 did simply because THEY DON'T HAVE 75 HEROIC-PROGRESSION-CAPABLE CHARACTERS.

    My guild is NOT unique in that we have a few more than we need (to sub in/out for a boss where they may not need gear or whatever). Don't try to tell me that...it's obviously not true.

    We don't go recruit a full raid of arcane mages because 즐거운공격대 took a bunch of them to their world first kill. We have what we have and we'll make do with it. And that's the way ALMOST EVERYONE ELSE WORKS TOO.

    Fights are NOT impossible for 99% of the raiders w/whatever comp they might have...certainly not based on problems with the CLASSES involved (not saying that Bob playing a mage is going to necessarily be up to the tasks required of him just because he's a mage...he might be a BAD mage).

    It might be relevant for world first level guilds...but there are MAYBE 20 of them ON THE PLANET. They'll do whatever and they're CAPABLE of it, because of the nature of what they do. Every one else is in the same boat as me...and if you think you need to replace a guy because he's playing the wrong class...you're flat wrong.

  20. #20
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    I agree with Ion. We did 4/7 heroic firelands with a resto shaman two-healing prenerf and they were generally thought to be, well, not very good. We all have alts we could log on to, but we make do with what we have. And while we didn't get heroic rag down, we had a damn good try at it. We are a guild of people, some of whom have been playing together since the game launched in europe back in 2005. It is the same in DS. The only boss we had me go healer was Hagara, the rest of the bosses we did "normally". We three-healed Morchok, because we had no fourth healer. We did things like use hand of sacrifice etc at Ultraxion instead of recruiting new people who could block HoT.

    The guilds that have the capacity as well as the will to recruit for specific fights are few and far between. It wouldn't surprise me if there was only one for every 4 or 5 servers that do it for progression reasons (i.e. not "everybody says DK tanks suck, so we are recruiting a new tank").

    Anyway, this is getting off topic.

    Back to holy pally discussion I'd say

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