Protection Warriors?

[Pagezero]

Very interesting, latest beta:

Shield Barrier - Raise your shield, absorbing (1% of 10000% of AP) damage for the next 6 sec. Absorption amount increases with attack power.

A lot more useful than 20% spell damage, I think we needed another short CD.

[kopcap]

They can't link it to AP without reworking vengeance. This will make people stack pure stamina and nothing else.

I don't understand why they are coming with all these dodgy new mechanics when all they need to do is to fix existing model, ie do something about spell reflect.

On another note, as I said go easy on your SB uptime calcs just yet http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=123147

[Tengenstein]

But Kop, we're bored... we want numbers to play with!

The changes to our stances are interesting. Def getting the crit immunity is a nice change to let DPS warrior be impromptu tanks. though the battle/berserker stance ones are gonna feel strange to get used to. The enrage change is gonna make keeping SB up 100% alot easier.

[Gregasaurous]

The enrage change is gonna make keeping SB up 100% alot easier.

can we start a discussion as to the diminishing value of mastery NOW?

[Airowird]

Tbh, Stamina over avoidance so you can reduce more damage through Shield Barrier is a moot point, Avoidance will probably be doing roughly the same reduction and it doesn't require full Vengeance to do so.

The diminishing value of mastery does not exist if GC holds true to his word & Mastery/block will roll over into crit block during SB (it would actually be an improvement). If it does not, simply use Shield Barrier instead

[Gregasaurous]

The diminishing value of mastery does not exist if GC holds true to his word & Mastery/block will roll over into crit block during SB (it would actually be an improvement). If it does not, simply use Shield Barrier instead

What GC says and what the Nerf-bat does are 2 different things.

[kopcap]

Tbh, Stamina over avoidance so you can reduce more damage through Shield Barrier is a moot point, Avoidance will probably be doing roughly the same reduction and it doesn't require full Vengeance to do so.

How so? In terms of survivability, stamina is already ahead of avoidance against heavy hitting melee. Now lets add a mitigation component on top of it, consider magic/unavoidable burst, devalue mastery through 100% SB uptime and throw in a dps bonus through vengeance just for lols - you won't find a single idiot with a green or yellows gem in his gear within a week from release.

Although I don't know what vengeance is like on beta. If its anywhere similar to live, this AP idea is silly.

[Tengenstein]

I think I must be reading it differently to everyone else. is ShieldBarrier just 6 second 30k absorb shield assumimg live AP values? that really doesn't seem worth that much against boss melee even if Mastery didn't exist. Assuming 3 swings and 33% avoidance and 100% SB uptime means the other 2 hits will be blocked and reduced by 30%,wouldn't that infer the boss need to do less than 50K per swing to make Sbar win on minimising damage taken. Regardless of Mastery boosting SB crit blocks I don't see SBar as being a better alternative to SB unless you can't block the damage, or its so insignificant you don't care if you block the damage.

[Gregasaurous]

"1% of 10000% of AP" Do i suck at math or does that just mean we'll get an absorb equal to our attack power?
So at maximum 10% of my HP (from vengeance) + whatever AP i have passively, which on live is less than what i get from Vengeance. So roughly estimated, a absorb for..... 16% of my total health? Not bad, but not exactly ground breaking either.

[Bigbad]

Vengeance=10% base hp + stamina. Seems the value of shieldbarrier is very underwhelming just a really bad version of deathstrike, but maybe that's just comparing it to the highmastery values dks have at the end of the expansion. Could be just a bandage fix for unblockable damage but is it really good enough as a cd against magicdamage?

[Tengenstein]

I think i prefered the 25% dmag reduction. I mean on live i wasn't to fussed if somthing hit me with a 120k laser but having a 25% damage reduction against impales woulda been nice.

[Dreador]

With my current health at level 87 Vengeance stacks to ~18k giving a 27k absorb. I only tested it on a couple of non elite quest mobs this morning to get a quick feel. Will test on the dungeon later (unfortunately we only have 1) and see how it goes in an active situation. I feel it may be gimped until T17 gear in it's current state.

[Gregasaurous]

It's going to have pros and cons really. I think it will make a better "oh shit" button since it will stop damage, for only a GCD or two, but that gives the healer another few seconds to get a heal off. The con is, it's a finite number, so it won't be our best ability for a boss TKLoD compared to a "infinite" percentage.

[Dreador]

Rage generation seems worse than it was in the last patch- they capped us at level 87- and added Stormstout Brewery as well as a bunch of bug and quest fixes (and added more bugs lol). The patch notes say our rage generation should have been buffed, as enrage effects have been increased and enrage can proc off white hits now instead of just ability crits. But anectdotally it seems worse overall. Dunno.

[Zellviren]

With my current health at level 87 Vengeance stacks to ~18k giving a 27k absorb. I only tested it on a couple of non elite quest mobs this morning to get a quick feel. Will test on the dungeon later (unfortunately we only have 1) and see how it goes in an active situation. I feel it may be gimped until T17 gear in it's current state.

I don't necessarily like redirecting, but my latest blog covers my view in more detail.

The TLDR: I think mastery will affect the new Shield Barrier, given that anywhere near 100% uptime on Shield Block (thanks to hit and expertise) shoves the value of mastery to a gutter stat. The value of mastery is in CTC, not Critical Block, because avoidance is a full 40% better once you can no longer take a full hit.

My justification for this view is that the precedent is set with the new paladin quirk, Bastion of Glory.

[Tengenstein]

I think you may have overlooked the possibility that mastery doesn't have to be an attractive stat, its not outside the realm of possibility that Mastery just won't be something prot warriors want.

[Zellviren]

I think you may have overlooked the possibility that mastery doesn't have to be an attractive stat, its not outside the realm of possibility that Mastery just won't be something prot warriors want.

I've not overlooked it, I just don't see how they would consider a bona fide defensive stat not being attractive as "good design".

It's inherently bad design, especially when there's a pretty obvious solution staring them in the face.

[Tengenstein]

I've not overlooked it, I just don't see how they would consider a bona fide defensive stat not being attractive as "good design".

It's inherently bad design, especially when there's a pretty obvious solution staring them in the face.

Avoidance is a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Block value was a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Armour is a bona fide defensive stat, it is not attractive in Cata.

[Dreador]

Avoidance is a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Block value was a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Armour is a bona fide defensive stat, it is not attractive in Cata.

This is important to remember. Recall the singular places where avoidance is called for outside of CTC capping for certain Cata fights.

[Zellviren]

Avoidance is a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Block value was a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Armour is a bona fide defensive stat, it is not attractive in Cata.

I daresay that if you chose to remove avoidance from your tanking gear you'd notice. Substantially so. Actually, this was a point Greg Street himself made during 3.3 when people were saying stamina was the only stat that mattered. Why is that important?

Because avoidance is ALWAYS attractive, otherwise we wouldn't bother having tanking gear at all.

Any argument to the contrary is short-sighted and wrong, unless you wish to explain why you use tanking armour other than the defensive stats on it.

Block value and armour are not relevant comparisons at all, as the Cataclysm version of block made them both utterly redundant (and block value was brokenly weak in WotLK). Do you want to talk about why 30 minute Shield Wall wasn't so great? That's the direction you're taking.

If you wish to be so arrogantly dismissive of an opinion differing from your own, my only request is that you try to at least be sensible whilst doing so.