The Weekly Marmot - MoP Loot Changes

[Lore]

The primary draw of progression raiding is competition. If not against others in the world, or on your server, it's competition against yourself -- the push to be the best you can be. Hardcore raiders draw enjoyment from facing hard challenges, and doing everything in their power to defeat them. If I wasn't grabbing for every edge I can get, I would not enjoy raiding.

Simply put, if a hardcore, progression-focused raider doesn't do everything they can to get ahead, they'd rather not raid at all. Think about that.

So yes, when an opportunity is available to increase the power of my character, I will take it 100% of the time, because if I don't, raiding just isn't fun for me.

The problem comes in when those opportunities also make raiding less fun. If I'm not enjoying the process of being the best I can be (remember, in the hardcore mindset, some amount of grinding is still enjoyable), I'd also rather not raid, because I'm not going to do something that I don't enjoy. The issue with forcing hardcore raiders to run LFR (again, if I don't do it, I'm not pushing myself to be the best, so I don't enjoy raiding) is that it's the same content. Yes, it's much easier, but it means I'm killing the same bosses twice every week. I'm going through the same basic motions. It essentially cuts in half the amount of time it will take for me to get tired of seeing the same things over and over.

The problem is not that I have to do something extra. I'm actually looking forward to having to do dailies to get Charms of Good Fortune, for example. The problem is that the something extra I'm doing makes me less interested in the reason I'm doing it.

That's the best I can explain it. If you still don't understand, I apologize. Fortunately, it doesn't matter if you understand or not. Blizzard does (as seen in my interview with Greg Street re: Charm of Good Fortune), so I'm hopeful they'll resolve the issue for MoP.

[Rawer]

The new LFR loot system doesnt really look to solve anything, but instead seems to just shift the blame for why your not getting loot. So when implemented instead of seeing the three or four rolls that could possibly beat yours, the rolls are made behind the scenes and decided automatically. Theoretically, you could still run LFR and not see the loot you need drop for sometime. Even worse. you could be the only class in the run (would be rare in LFR) and still have the same small chance of loot dropping for you.

This x10times !

I really don't care about charms and bonus roll and different loot distribution. The problems of LFR are elsewhere.

LFR was made for scrubs to see content, now they want loot too. That's the main problem.

LFR requires good players to clear it, atleast couting Spine and Madness or even all 2nd part of DS. The good raiders won't come back there once they started normal/heroic and got their gear unless they go on Alts, but still they wasted time if they didn't get any loot and scrubs that rolled Need on every item, that basically got carried took the loot. That's the 2nd problem I see.

Now the 3rd problem I have with LFR is what caused the famous bans. They made LFR super easy, put worthwhile gear in there, they made it so you can complete it as many times as you want per week like heroic dungeons but locked you out for only one chance of roll per boss per week.
Why not make LFR loot be available over and over like the heroic dungeon loot ?
If the loot sux compared to normal/HC, if the raid is made to be easy, if they want to give raiding loot to casuals, why not make LFR lock-out different ?!

My only conspiracy theory answer is that they want the good players to carry the bads thru LFR raids so only motivation is to keep the loot worthwhile but not let them get the gear they want.

[worgick]

I would like the 10% chance for a player to get a loot, regardless of a min/max number of players. Sometimes (Very Rare) it would be nobody/everybody gets stuff, that would keep things interesting.......... The Charm of Good Fortune would be a nice thing too, if your loot doesn't drop from the boss that has the gear you need, you get a "Do Over" to get that drop........ That is a new angle and creative use of the Valor Token, basically acting as an armor patch that upgrades your gear..........

[Blackcurrant]

I don't get the obsession of a certain piece of loot not dropping. And therefor the whole system must change?

I'm also trying to boost my character to be as good as possible. So it's not that i don't care. I hope for luck to go my way to give me an extra edge, but i also accept that sometimes it won't. Without this dynamic spectra i would actually enjoy the loot system less.

Only real problem i would object to is if lower tiers could drop awesome items that was a 100% must to have later on, and thus forcing raids to keep running them. Now when it isn't like that tho, isn't it possible to just suck it up and accept that a trinket or a shield never dropped?

Ofcourse i whine and raise my fists toward the skies when things go crappy, but that doesn't mean i want to change the system.

Now things like Shard of contempt and say in TBC Dragonspine trophy are a fun extra flavour that makes looting less stale (compared to what i see the horrible boring and predictable pvp loot system as).


On that note the new valor point system seem awesome! It felt really stale and uninspiring to me with the vendor. But being able to upgrade any loot one got from other places seems like it could be really interesting gameplay!

[Theotherone]

This x10times !

LFR was made for scrubs to see content, now they want loot too. That's the main problem.

The issue with this statement, is that just because lfr was made for more people to see content (for whatever reason they run it; no time for a raiding schedule, not in a raiding guild, being not good enough for normal/heroic), does not mean it was not made to also drop loot. One reason does not exclude the other.

[swills]

The problem comes in when those opportunities also make raiding less fun.

The thing is, doing pretty much anything hardcore typically entails some parts that are not fun, in order to enable the bits that are.

If you want to be really good at Hockey, chances are that getting up at 5am to hit the gym before work every day, and spending tons of cash on equipment to enable you to play aren't really that "fun". Playing hockey is fun. You do the stuff you have to do to enable you to compete at the level you want to compete at. This is generally true for life.

In WoW terms, yes if you want to be cutting edge then you have to do stuff you might not choose to do, in order to compete at the level you want to compete at. That is a personal choice though, it's just the cost of competing.

It's a little different with LFR basically involving you getting burned out on content faster, but as different as LFR is from HC raiding, I'm not sure that you really are doing the "same fights" over and over. They look the same sure, but that's about it.

[Shaidar]

LFR was made for scrubs to see content, now they want loot too. That's the main problem.

Wow... now I see why Leuc thinks what he thinks... I don't think there's any actual hardcore raiders who have these opinions or if there are they are a vocal minority that has very skewed priorities. What lore has said much more succinctly than I have is really what most people focused on competitive raiding feel.

[Aggathon]

The thing is, doing pretty much anything hardcore typically entails some parts that are not fun, in order to enable the bits that are.

I agree to an extent, but I would refer you to the "seeing it too much" argument lore has, and you talk about that below so I go more in depth down there.

If you want to be really good at Hockey, chances are that getting up at 5am to hit the gym before work every day, and spending tons of cash on equipment to enable you to play aren't really that "fun". Playing hockey is fun. You do the stuff you have to do to enable you to compete at the level you want to compete at. This is generally true for life.

Imo, there's a huge difference between wanting to play collegiate or professional level hockey and wanting to play a game. And there might be a lot of people that do take enjoyment in all the extra work it takes to play hockey.

It's a little different with LFR basically involving you getting burned out on content faster, but as different as LFR is from HC raiding, I'm not sure that you really are doing the "same fights" over and over. They look the same sure, but that's about it.

It's a combination of 2 things. The first I like to call "TOC Syndrome"

I personally think that the individual boss fights in TOC (Tournament of the Crusader) were really good, especially the HM bosses. To this day H-Anub25 was one of my favorite fights to organize and tank. I thought Twins and the PvP fight were really unique mechanics and ideas that I liked, and I really enjoyed beasts too actually, I thought the mechanics were fun. Jaraxass was kind of meh, but I still enjoyed it initially.

The problem with ToC, that it was only 5 bosses, no trash, AND YOU WERE DOING THE SAME BOSSES 4 TIMES A WEEK FOR 6 FREAKING MONTHS. Burnout GALORE! And 10 man normal Anub was a MUCH different fight than H-25man Anub, just like the LFR mode fights are different.

And even then, I think on a boss-by-boss basis, Dragonsoul is worse than TOC, and the way the instance was designed is just stupid, let me esplain -
LFR mode: the majority of the raid can ignore the majority of the mechanics, sometimes tanks have to be a bit more aware or get yelled at by someone that is but for the most part the only mechanic that really need to be adhered to is not getting hit by hagara's ice walls... there's nothing else tricky in LFR that more than a few people have to pay attention to, otherwise it's just "okay kill stuff"

Normal mode: okay now you have to pay attention to most of the mechanics, but there's a lot of leeway in whether or not you succeed.

Hard mode: okay now you actually have to pay attention to all of the mechanics, and on a few bosses there's a slight twist to the mechanics, but very few actual NEW mechanics.

Roll that all in to running it multiple times per week, and you begin to see what dragon soul is NOT fun, why HC raiders do NOT want to run LFR, and why it has been such a terrible instance that I honestly think is worse than TOC, mainly because the deathwing fight(s) were such a major letdown, imo. I think the "idea" of spine, of fighting on a giant dragon back, and having to do multiple stages to defeat a boss was kinda cool... but... implemented very poorly.

[Libellus]

Simply put, if a hardcore, progression-focused raider doesn't do everything they can to get ahead, they'd rather not raid at all. Think about that.

I kind of agree with you. Most of the time I pretty much agree with everything you say, but I blame the hypnotic properties of your hair for that.

Here's the thing. I like min-maxing my character. I like tweaking, I like getting stuff that's the best for any given slot.

But, I'm not prepared to subject myself to activities which are "condensed-anti-fun" for the sake of in-game pixels. If I can do the job of tanking with the gear I've got, then I won't spend any time feeling guilty or worried about having to run LFR to plug loot holes. Because, first and foremost, the game has to be fun. If it isn't fun getting an upgrade, it is not worth doing. The value add of an ilvl 384 item or a set bonus, is not worth the hassle. Regardless of what the numbers might say for my character, the CBA (Cost Benefit Analysis or Can't Be Arsed), basically says it is not worth it.

In a way, I'm rebelling against Blizzard's dumb ass loot design. Heroic loot from one tier should not be immediately obsolete as a result of normal loot from the next tier. LFR loot was a slap in the face in this regard. I shouldn't need LFR loot to run Normal mode or heroic mode DS and therefore, I'll be damned if I'm going to go to any lengths to farm it.

The thing is, I know I'm not a competitive raider. I'm not going to pursue world firsts or server firsts. But at the same time, I care about my character. I'll farm VPs on alts to buy BOE valor loot to plug slots. I'll farm with alts to get mats to create crafted loot. Having the right stuff in the right slots, with the right enchants matters to me.

But I refuse to pay the silly prices people ask on the AH for the epic gems. Because I think the gem system in DS is retarded. I just can't bring myself to be party to such stupidity. Nor line the pockets of those lucky enough to get epic gems from clusters they're able to sell the excess. Me, I get hessonite. Stacks of it.

[Leucifer]

The primary draw of progression raiding is competition. If not against others in the world, or on your server, it's competition against yourself -- the push to be the best you can be. Hardcore raiders draw enjoyment from facing hard challenges, and doing everything in their power to defeat them. If I wasn't grabbing for every edge I can get, I would not enjoy raiding.

First, thank you Lore for not just ignoring my response.

Totally get all of this. Completely onboard with this train of thought. I'm more on the competition with myself end of things, but to each their own.

Simply put, if a hardcore, progression-focused raider doesn't do everything they can to get ahead, they'd rather not raid at all. Think about that.

So yes, when an opportunity is available to increase the power of my character, I will take it 100% of the time, because if I don't, raiding just isn't fun for me.

Totally get this. All or nothing type of approach. "Go hard, or go home."

The problem comes in when those opportunities also make raiding less fun. If I'm not enjoying the process of being the best I can be (remember, in the hardcore mindset, some amount of grinding is still enjoyable), I'd also rather not raid, because I'm not going to do something that I don't enjoy. The issue with forcing hardcore raiders to run LFR (again, if I don't do it, I'm not pushing myself to be the best, so I don't enjoy raiding) is that it's the same content. Yes, it's much easier, but it means I'm killing the same bosses twice every week. I'm going through the same basic motions. It essentially cuts in half the amount of time it will take for me to get tired of seeing the same things over and over.

The problem is not that I have to do something extra. I'm actually looking forward to having to do dailies to get Charms of Good Fortune, for example. The problem is that the something extra I'm doing makes me less interested in the reason I'm doing it.

I think that last line is damn close to the issue. I think what you're saying, in essence, is that.... it's a bit of a sliding scale.


Interest Level Low --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interest Level High

Doing same content repeatedly ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Doing varying content in support of a goal

Doing less challenging content-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doing more challenging content

Low ROI with Time Spent --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- High ROI with Time Spent


..... and various other things. The problem isn't doing one thing extra..... it's doing many extra things PLUS doing the same things over and over PLUS just being exposed to the same content repeatedly PLUS maybe not getting RNG to deliver up what you want PLUS the psychological toll of NOT "feeling progress" PLUS a bunch of other stuff.

But, do you realize Lore that, that isn't just exclusive to the hardcore raider? Consider what Cata has been to the casual..... I mean, frankly, if you weren't raiding, there was like jack-squat else to do. LFR created another opportunity for something to do, but it also forced people into something that, quite frankly, they really probably aren't cut out for. At the end of the day though...... there was NOTHING ELSE MEANINGFUL for 80%+ of the player population to do in WoW.

I mean, let's be honest....
The hardcore raider has a bit of a different mindset and attitude that makes them VERY GOOD at raiding at the highest levels. Most players would not be like the folk of <Months Behind> and throw themselves up against heroic Ragnaros for weeks on end (you guys were over 300 attempts if I remember correctly from your one Marmot). Most players simply do not have that kind of mental tenacity. You seemed to have found your "limit" when you got po'ed about it. If you remember though..... Paragon did something like 500+ attempts trying to take him down.

The hardcore raider, in general, sits at a very different spot on that spectrum than the average Joe WoW-Player. You guys are willing to beat your heads into the Ragnaros-wall repeatedly in order to get something...... but running LFR, you're not willing to do that repeatedly without complaint because it simply doesn't appeal to that primary drive. It does to some degree...... trying to improve gear..... but it doesn't fulfill that "need" like heroic raiding.

You're very goal-driven. Doesn't make you good or bad (though, you might see that differently and likely do). You derive a certain amount of satisfaction/enjoyment from that. At the same time, things seem to be VERY black and white for this group.

The casual, they derive their satisfaction/enjoyment from maybe similar things, but it sits at a different spot on that spectrum. Their view on what should be involved in their achieving satisfaction/enjoyment are different. In order to make things enjoyable/pleasing for these people, things are going to have to sit a bit differently. Availability of pleasing loot at a difficulty level that will keep them chasing that carrot.

That's the best I can explain it. If you still don't understand, I apologize. Fortunately, it doesn't matter if you understand or not. Blizzard does (as seen in my interview with Greg Street re: Charm of Good Fortune), so I'm hopeful they'll resolve the issue for MoP.

I understand your explanation. Do you understand what I am getting at though? Each part of this community tends to not see the other side's view. The hardcore raider accuses the casual of wanting "loot pinatas"..... that they "don't want to do anything for their loot"..... and then, when the hardcore complains about having to do something they don't want to do in order to support their own goals.... the casual is going to fire back and accuse the hardcore of hypocrisy. The "community" is really at odds with itself. Don't believe me? Go look at some of the comments in this thread.

Again, the heroic/hardcore raider does not HAVE to. In fact, if it was really all about the "challenge", you'd skip the LFR thing and go without. Reality is though, that it's not just that. Just like how football players competing on the pro-level will "cheat" to win, the heroic/hardcore raider will do whatever it takes to "win"..... as was evidenced earlier when 4.3 released and several top guilds exploited the system in order to maximize their effectiveness in the competition. Back when the "race" was fresh, it was all about pushing as fast as you could. Now, as the race is dragging on and fairly much over, that "reward" mechanism of being one of the first is gone. So, of course, people are not feeling as much enjoyment as before and are not beginning to vent frustrations and unhappiness.

Again, the core of the problem is Blizzard screwed up item design. Contributing to the problem though was the simple fact that, the hardcore or heroic raider's belief system states that they MUST do everything they can to maximize their effectiveness, and the pleasure that they were getting out of it was diminished due to things like farming less challenging content for those items, boring raid design, and just a lack of enjoyment with Dragon Soul. They're going to push through things that they don't find enjoyable in order to reach for something positive on the other side of that. But..... when you reach a confluence of crappy, boring, content..... and all the various other things we've heard about Dragon Soul..... this barrier of tolerance becomes MUCH lower. This, for the heroic/hardcore crowd in Dragon Soul, is lower than it might have been if things had been done better.

Again, back to the earlier Rags example.... the hardcore is willing to endure a LOT of suck to reach that shiny at the opposite end. The threshold for the amount of suck tolerable for this community with Dragon Soul is just that much lower due to poor itemization, poor raid "enjoyability", and repetitiveness.

Does this mean the loot system is "broken"? Not necessarily. But, once again, in what is beginning to appear to be typical Blizzard fashion, they're going to fix the wrong thing in hopes that it patches the problems created by the real problems.....

1) Lackluster content
2) Poor management of content difficulty
3) Poor item design

[Rawer]

Wow... now I see why Leuc thinks what he thinks... I don't think there's any actual hardcore raiders who have these opinions or if there are they are a vocal minority that has very skewed priorities. What lore has said much more succinctly than I have is really what most people focused on competitive raiding feel.

Well excuse my harsh language but that how in part is.

The issue with this statement, is that just because lfr was made for more people to see content (for whatever reason they run it; no time for a raiding schedule, not in a raiding guild, being not good enough for normal/heroic), does not mean it was not made to also drop loot. One reason does not exclude the other.

That doesn't exclude it being the main problem: 25 randoms facerolling a raid (some people clearly being carried by others, with no master loot, no dkp system, no imposed rules) all 25 wanting loot too, all rolling Need.

[Mwawka]

I'm actually not sure what's confusing about that but I'll try to just explain it. It looks at your current spec, regardless of whether it's spec #1 or spec #2, or whether you feel it's your "main" or "off" spec. If you kill the boss as Protection, you will get loot that makes sense for Protection.

If you want offspec loot, you'll need to play your offspec.

This actually leads into my only real concern about the new LFR loot system. Because you cannot get offspec gear from your LFR roll, I suspect we will see people doing stealth spec changes from what they queue'd as to try to get offspec loot they need, if they already have all the main spec pieces they have from a boss. It won't be a huge problem for a group if a dps switches tank for a fight, because dps requirements are so lenient, but I certainly think that if you had a couple of healers stealthing into dps specs for a wanted trinket or something, it could cause issues.

[Theotherone]

That doesn't exclude it being the main problem: 25 randoms facerolling a raid (some people clearly being carried by others, with no master loot, no dkp system, no imposed rules) all 25 wanting loot too, all rolling Need.

But just take it for what it is, pure comedy. Some of the stuff that goes on in there is just classic. The hunters who turn on Aspect of the Pack durring the lightening phase of Haggra, stunning everyone; the mages or shammys who blow hero before the pull; the players who fade after they got hit by Hour of Twilight; it's great.

If you take it serious, you'll go crazy.

[leethaxor]

the mages or shammys who blow hero before the pull.

Dude I fat fingered hero last night on Heroic Madness people got so mad >.<

[Theotherone]

Dude I fat fingered hero last night on Heroic Madness people got so mad >.<

Rofl. I have to admit, on Haggra in lfr, I'll sometimes blow hero when we're on the part where you run from the ice walls - people go nuts in chat, it's great. I'm sorry, I'm a horrible person, but it's funny as crap and there's no chance to wipe.

[Lore]

This actually leads into my only real concern about the new LFR loot system. Because you cannot get offspec gear from your LFR roll, I suspect we will see people doing stealth spec changes from what they queue'd as to try to get offspec loot they need, if they already have all the main spec pieces they have from a boss. It won't be a huge problem for a group if a dps switches tank for a fight, because dps requirements are so lenient, but I certainly think that if you had a couple of healers stealthing into dps specs for a wanted trinket or something, it could cause issues.

I would argue that the same issue exists currently, due to the roll bonuses. As long as someone else is in there that wants the item mainspec - which is pretty much always - you'll never win an offspec roll.

[Oint]

I'm completely fine with the increased chances of loot in LFR. It's not that much of a more loot issue though, it's just if you win a roll you get loot that is for you. It makes sense without a straight handout. This is LFR, it's easymode, it's supposed to be. There's no valid argument for players to say LFR players don't deserve loot. LFR is for players who wouldn't mind seeing the raiding content, but don't care to push themselves more into the fun and challenge of organized raiding guilds. Let LFR players see the raids, get some gear, and they'll move on.

Also for raiding offspecs and the issues there. If you're going to want to build an offspec...PLAY IT! What's the point of fuming over not getting offspec gear if you aren't even going to play the class at the time. This is LFR! You have a perfect opportunity to play the spec without the worry of being not good at it yet!

If there is a huge worry over players stealth swapping mid LFR run. Blizzard could possibly just disable spec swapping in LFR.

To me this new LFR roll system sounds awesome. I'm looking forward to using it on my raiding offnights for fun.

[Mwawka]

I would argue that the same issue exists currently, due to the roll bonuses. As long as someone else is in there that wants the item mainspec - which is pretty much always - you'll never win an offspec roll.

Well, it is a role bonus tho, so the +need is based on how you queue'd, therefore swapping to a different spec for a fight makes no difference currently. My concern is, that if the loot is granted based on current spec, it will provide incentive to not perform the role you queue'd for if you don't need mainspec loot off the boss you are currently killing. For example, I queue as a healer, but I have the healing trinket of Spine, so I switch to dps for the fight before the pull so that if I win a trinket it'll be the dps trinket not the healing one. If we fail, I may be booted for doing it after the attempt, but I can requeue and try it again with another group if I want it that badly. It's not about the current system as much as it is about loopholing the new system, possibly at the expense of the other 24 people in your group.

I have seen people queue as heals and actually dps, possibly not noticing or possibly trying to build offset, but they are usually sniffed out after the first boss, so it does happen, but I actually think it'd be more of a problem with the proposed system.

[Leucifer]

Well, it is a role bonus tho, so the +need is based on how you queue'd, therefore swapping to a different spec for a fight makes no difference currently. My concern is, that if the loot is granted based on current spec, it will provide incentive to not perform the role you queue'd for if you don't need mainspec loot off the boss you are currently killing. For example, I queue as a healer, but I have the healing trinket of Spine, so I switch to dps for the fight before the pull so that if I win a trinket it'll be the dps trinket not the healing one. If we fail, I may be booted for doing it after the attempt, but I can requeue and try it again with another group if I want it that badly. It's not about the current system as much as it is about loopholing the new system, possibly at the expense of the other 24 people in your group.

I have seen people queue as heals and actually dps, possibly not noticing or possibly trying to build offset, but they are usually sniffed out after the first boss, so it does happen, but I actually think it'd be more of a problem with the proposed system.

Yeah. Good point. If it goes off of the active spec, it might be an issue. Unless you throw in some sort of "locking mechanism" that, if the role you select doesn't match your spec... you're automatically booted or can't queue so long as the two don't match. Would it incite whining? Probably. It'd keep things "fair". Only thing you'd run into is people queueing in a spec they have no intentions to actually perform. Quick example.... priest queues up for heal role, stays in holy or disc spec, but doesn't heal at all during the fight. I'm sure someone will call them out on it as someone will have a dps/heal meter.... BUT... if every single player went in with the basic UI, no addons.... the situation could easily exist. And sorry.... but that's the type of thing Blizzard should take into account. If they don't provide a tool that does it, they shouldn't create a system that relies on one to ensure integrity.

Then again..... players are going to "game the system". Period. Yeah, I'm being pessimistic, but at least I'm not being ignorant.

[Deandia]

So if we can no longer buy Tier gear with valor points, how are we supposed to get Tier gear in the future? I am not a raider.
I also know that someone will say...why do you need Tier gear if you do not raid?

My answer to that. Why should I be left out just because I choose not to raid. I like the look of Tier gear.

Lore, you spend way too much time talking about raiding. There are other playerws out here who want to hear more about things other than raiding.